High Speed Chases Ending in Death - Whose Fault Is It, Really?

[CrusaderFrank]

Two things:

1. It's George Bush's fault

2. You're an idiot. What if the speeder had your wife in the trunk, still OK to let him go his merry way?

1. Irrelevant.

2. Would you prefer the cop engage in high speed pursuit, and end up killing your wife, or for him to get as much backup as possible, follow the person, and kill him before he gets your wife out of the trunk?

It's the speeders fault every time, 100% of the time

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's the speeders fault every time, 100% of the time

Just like it was the suspects fault when the cops broke into the wrong house and killed a little girl.

 

[George Costanza]

How the fuck do you know who's driving the car? All you have is a license plate? LOL

What a moron!

Ah, it just wouldn't be a thread without Frank calling us "idiots" and "morons," now would it?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

It's the speeders fault every time, 100% of the time

Just like it was the suspects fault when the cops broke into the wrong house and killed a little girl.

Are you that easily distracted? Can you stay on topic for 2 consecutive posts?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

How the fuck do you know who's driving the car? All you have is a license plate? LOL

What a moron!

Ah, it just wouldn't be a thread without Frank calling us "idiots" and "morons," now would it?

"Why doesn't he just get the guy's license number and wait for him to come home?"

If the dunce cap fits...

I blame CNN and the media for this by glamorizing the people who lead cops on high speed chases and then hold the cops responsible when the speeder gets his well deserved beat down at chase's end.

 

[George Costanza]

It's the speeders fault every time, 100% of the time

Just like it was the suspects fault when the cops broke into the wrong house and killed a little girl.

All right, Sunshine - I'll tell you what prompted this thread to begin with. Last week, where I live (Los Angeles area), a California Highway Patrol motorcycle officer was killed chasing a speeder who refused to stop. The officer's lost control of his bike during the chase and ended up dead.

So it isn't always innocent civilians who die because of these chases.

Footnote: I wonder what the motorcycle officer thought he was going to do if he had been able to catch up to the car? Kind of hard to do a pit maneuver on a car with a motorcycle.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's the speeders fault every time, 100% of the time

Just like it was the suspects fault when the cops broke into the wrong house and killed a little girl.

Are you that easily distracted? Can you stay on topic for 2 consecutive posts?

You choose to interpret the topic of being only about police chasing a speeder, I view it as being about the attitude that leads that cop to chase someone who has essentially done nothing criminal. Which of us really understands the OP and the topic of the thread better?

Clue:
The first person to resort to calling someone else a moron is usually wrong.

 

[George Costanza]

when the speeder gets his well deserved beat down at chase's end.

Frank, Frank, Frank . . . you are SUCH a predictable conservative.

That is a whole, other issue, which will be taken up at a later time and on a different thread. Until then, content youself with polishing your guns and lobbying against gay marriage or something.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

All right, Sunshine - I'll tell you what prompted this thread to begin with. Last week, where I live (Los Angeles area), a California Highway Patrol motorcycle officer was killed chasing a speeder who refused to stop. The officer's lost control of his bike during the chase and ended up dead.

So it isn't always innocent civilians who die because of these chases.

Footnote: I wonder what the motorcycle officer thought he was going to do if he had been able to catch up to the car? Kind of hard to do a pit maneuver on a car with a motorcycle.

I live in California currently, and had heard about that incident.

 

[Shogun]

"whose only crime is speeding"?

whatever. the cop doesn't know if, and has the valid concern to find out, if there is a reason said motorist is speeding and he should have given chase. Especially since the speeder didn't pull over when the cop put his lights on. The speeder is responsible for the lives lost and should, at the very least, be charged with aggravated manslaughter. Rationalizing the original crime of speeding, and suggesting the laughable solution of just waiting for the speeder to come home (as if this were mayberry) is just farcical.

 

[del]

Unfortunately, it is not as easy as most of you folks would have it. On this particular issue, I think you have to step back and take a look at the Big Picture. Is stopping someone whose only crime has been speeding or some other type of relatively minor traffic offense, worth risking the lives of innocent civilians?

To me, there is no question. It isn't. As a citizen, I would MUCH prefer that cops not pursue speeders who don't yield than to have to worry about being killed as a consequence of their doing so.

It is so easy to say: "Perp's fault! Run from the cops, too bad - let the chips fall where they may and devil take the hindmost. We can't have people running from our police."

Yes, we can. And for damn good reason in many cases.

Step back further still, if the police had seen the guy commit an offense and done nothing, and that driver then went on to kill someone by driving recklessly, the drooling hordes would be whining that the police had the chance to stop him and did not.

Except he wouldn't have been driving in a manner that endangers others but for being chaserd ed by the cop in the first instance. Most of the death/injury from high speed chases I know about would clearly never have happend if the cop had not been pursuing.

I once had a case where my client got red lighted for a traffic offense. He had some meth in the car, so he took off. The cop pursued him. My client ended up blowing a red light and broadsiding a car on the driver's side. Driving the car was an 18-year-old girl. He caved in her entire face, that had to be reconstructed surgically. The DA had photos of her before and after. Before the accident, she was very beautiful. Afterwards, not.

All because some macho cop wasn't about to let someone disobey HIS command to stop.

Bull shit.

you're delusional, and it's obvious that you've been a defense attorney way, way too long. stockholm syndrome claims another victim.

thanks for stopping by.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

when the speeder gets his well deserved beat down at chase's end.

Frank, Frank, Frank . . . you are SUCH a predictable conservative.

That is a whole, other issue, which will be taken up at a later time and on a different thread. Until then, content youself with polishing your guns and lobbying against gay marriage or something.

It all goes hand in hand, the speeder get his 15 minutes and if the cops "overreact" he hires you to sue the city.

I've been pulled over by cops for speeding in more than one state (hmm, 4 states now that I think of it) and instead of flooring it, I have this bad habit of pulling over, turning the engine off and putting my hands on the wheel.

I'm such a nerd.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

"whose only crime is speeding"?

whatever. the cop doesn't know if, and has the valid concern to find out, if there is a reason said motorist is speeding and he should have given chase. Especially since the speeder didn't pull over when the cop put his lights on. The speeder is responsible for the lives lost and should, at the very least, be charged with aggravated manslaughter. Rationalizing the original crime of speeding, and suggesting the laughable solution of just waiting for the speeder to come home (as if this were mayberry) is just farcical.

Yet that is exactly what many departments do, and the result is no deaths as a result of high speed chases, and no one has ever attributed a death to the lack of a chase either.

 

[George Costanza]

"whose only crime is speeding"?

whatever. the cop doesn't know if, and has the valid concern to find out, if there is a reason said motorist is speeding and he should have given chase. Especially since the speeder didn't pull over when the cop put his lights on. The speeder is responsible for the lives lost and should, at the very least, be charged with aggravated manslaughter. Rationalizing the original crime of speeding, and suggesting the laughable solution of just waiting for the speeder to come home (as if this were mayberry) is just farcical.

No it isn't at all. You would be amazed at the number of robberies I get on the following facts: Robber sticks up the obligatory 7-11, jumps in his car and takes off. 7-11 guy gets his license number. Police are (literally) waiting for the robber when he gets home.

You first argument is a bootstrap - "he's not stopping, I'll chase him, he's speeding faster, I must chase him faster to find out why he's speeing faster." In the usual situation, the cop only knows that the guy committed some type of traffic offense. He can readily check to see if the car is stolen or if there are any outstanding warrants. If negative on both of the latter issues, this leaves only the traffic violation.

Traffic violations, by themselves, should NOT justify initiating a high speed chase if the driver fails to pull over for the red light on the police vehicle.

Unfortunately, the REAL reason cops go in pursuit of relatively minor traffic violators (or ANYONE who refused to stop for them) is all about EGO. Cops go BALLISTIC when someone they feel they should be controlling, refuses to be controlled. Ever notice that? It isn't entirely their fault. That's they way they are trained. When in doubt, yell, bully and frighten the people you are dealing with - that's the only way to get control of a situation.

But a large part of it has to do with the kind of guys who sign up to become cops to begin with. For purposes of this thread (which is not about that narrow issue), let's just say that a large percentage of police officers weren't the kind of guys who were shying away in one corner of the school yard when they were in grammar school. I trust you get the reference here.

 

[Shogun]

"whose only crime is speeding"?

whatever. the cop doesn't know if, and has the valid concern to find out, if there is a reason said motorist is speeding and he should have given chase. Especially since the speeder didn't pull over when the cop put his lights on. The speeder is responsible for the lives lost and should, at the very least, be charged with aggravated manslaughter. Rationalizing the original crime of speeding, and suggesting the laughable solution of just waiting for the speeder to come home (as if this were mayberry) is just farcical.

Yet that is exactly what many departments do, and the result is no deaths as a result of high speed chases, and no one has ever attributed a death to the lack of a chase either.

I would love to see you provide an example of a cop watching a crime happen and then going on to choose to disregard it and go wait for the criminal at their home. The speeder could have himself, who was speeding in the first place, killed other people. Should the cop have predicted that outcome? Like i said, farcical.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

you're delusional, and it's obvious that you've been a defense attorney way, way too long. stockholm syndrome claims another victim.

thanks for stopping by.

Which is the only possible explanation for this website, these people have been deluded by defense attorneys.

Kristie's Law

 

[MikeK]

In their firearms training police officers are emphatically cautioned to avoid the potential consequences of stray rounds and to not use potentially deadly force unless it is absolutely necessary.

Absolutely necessary! Engaging in high-speed pursuit is potentially deadly force -- and there are many examples of extreme collateral damage, along with many deaths, which occur as the result of high-speed pursuits, many of which are not necessary.

I am reminded of a COPS tv documentary in which a man in a car attempted to negotiate a sexual act with a female undercover vice cop posing as a hooker. When the bust car rolled up the man realized what was happening, accelerated -- damaging the front fender of the police vehicle in his panic to escape, drove off and was pursued by the bust car. After a rather wild chase the man lost control making a turn, bounced off two parked cars and rammed into the wooden front steps of a house, destroying them.

The man, whose face was bloody from the crash, was dragged from the car, slammed face down on the sidewalk, handcuffed, yanked to his feet and slammed across the hood of the police vehicle. I noted that the man was about fifty, rather skinny and certainly not the type who appeals to women. So it was understandable why the poor fellow was trying to do what comes naturally by the only means available to him. He hadn't harmed anyone and I will say the undercover female cop was enticing in a short skirt and halter (well worth twenty bucks).

What might have been a desk-appearance summons and a fine for promoting prostitution had escalated into a high-speed chase, charges of vehicular evasion, reckless endangerment and resisting arrest -- which meant jail time in addition to the cost of all the property damage and whatever personal and social consequences might follow.

I have heard of similar situations in which small amounts of drugs were the provocation for high-speed chases, some of which resulted in extreme injuries or death and massive property damage. So I believe the same emphasis on precaution in the use of firearms should apply to the use of motor vehicles. Unless it is necessary to apprehend a dangerous felon or to prevent some serious offense, high-speed chases should not be permitted. They are simply not worth the potential consequences.

 

[Shogun]

"whose only crime is speeding"?

whatever. the cop doesn't know if, and has the valid concern to find out, if there is a reason said motorist is speeding and he should have given chase. Especially since the speeder didn't pull over when the cop put his lights on. The speeder is responsible for the lives lost and should, at the very least, be charged with aggravated manslaughter. Rationalizing the original crime of speeding, and suggesting the laughable solution of just waiting for the speeder to come home (as if this were mayberry) is just farcical.

No it isn't at all. You would be amazed at the number of robberies I get on the following facts: Robber sticks up the obligatory 7-11, jumps in his car and takes off. 7-11 guy gets his license number. Police are (literally) waiting for the robber when he gets home.

You first argument is a bootstrap - "he's not stopping, I'll chase him, he's speeding faster, I must chase him faster to find out why he's speeing faster." In the usual situation, the cop only knows that the guy committed some type of traffic offense. He can readily check to see if the car is stolen or if there are any outstanding warrants. If negative on both of the latter issues, this leaves only the traffic violation.

Traffic violations, by themselves, should NOT justify initiating a high speed chase if the driver fails to pull over for the red light on the police vehicle.

Unfortunately, the REAL reason cops go in pursuit of relatively minor traffic violators (or ANYONE who refused to stop for them) is all about EGO. Cops go BALLISTIC when someone they feel they should be controlling, refuses to be controlled. Ever notice that? It isn't entirely their fault. That's they way they are trained. When in doubt, yell, bully and frighten the people you are dealing with - that's the only way to get control of a situation.

But a large part of it has to do with the kind of guys who sign up to become cops to begin with. For purposes of this thread (which is not about that narrow issue), let's just say that a large percentage of police officers weren't the kind of guys who were shying away in one corner of the school yard when they were in grammar school. I trust you get the reference here.

in your example here the crime is robbery and not the prolonged, public risk of speeding. Of course a recorded license plate number of a criminal already gone will prompt the cops looking for him in locations up to, and including his home. How, post a link to a single Chase In Progress where the police decided to just say fuckit.


The cop cannot check and find out if the driver is inebriated, or impaired in some other way. Leaving a speeder who refuses to stop on the road is neglecting the public safety entirely. Your argument here is checked by the PLETHORA of circumstances that cannot be verified by a simple call to dispatch.

speeding, and refusing to stop for a cop, is not a mere traffic violation any more than resisting arrest is merely exercise. Your opinion of what should and shouldn't count means two things. I'll let you guess what they are.

and, just so you know, speeding in traffic, despite a cop in pursuit, is not a MINOR offense. The More You Know.

it's not about ego. it's about public safety. You are trying to demonize the cop for doing his job. A job meant to keep the public safe from assholes like speeders who think that the world and it's highways revolve around their risky driving. Sorry, your logic needs a helmet.

Ps, your jaded opinion of cops seems to be the core of your disagreement with policy here. I guess that means I should have just ignored you in the first place. Demonizing all cops, and generalizing YOUR opinion of what YOU think most cops are like, is probably why every post that you've offered thus far is so peewee herman farcical.


seriously.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I would love to see you provide an example of a cop watching a crime happen and then going on to choose to disregard it and go wait for the criminal at their home. The speeder could have himself, who was speeding in the first place, killed other people. Should the cop have predicted that outcome? Like i said, farcical.

Do you realize that you are challenging me to defend a position I do not have? Isn't there a word for that?

 

[xotoxi]

Cop spots a guy speeding. He follows him and turns on the red light. The guy does not yield and, in fact, takes off at a high rate of speed. The only offense observed by the officer is speeding. The car is not stolen. No warrants exist for the owner of the car (which the officer can determine by checking the license plate of the guy's car).

The officer gives chase. A high speed chase ensues which ends when the person being pursued runs a red light, broadsides a car and four people in the car are killied in the flaming crash.