High school shooter used 10 round magazines....showing that magazine bans are stupid...

[Missourian]

This thread doesn't seem very popular...

 

[OldLady]

If he'd killed 35 using 30 round mags, you'd still be defending them

But he didn't. Ten round magazines. And no one is defending him. We are saying gun bans are stupid.

No, asshole. Had he gone in with a model 94 Winchester, when he had to reload, someone would have had a chance to take him down. Or get away. There is no reason for the assault weapons to be in the hands of civilians.

It appears you stance is now banning all semi automatic firearms. Is this true?

Mark

No, not yet. But about two more mass murders in churches, schools, and outdoor concerts, and I will be. You see, the more you gun nuts fail to come up with a solution, or fight any reasonable solution to this epidemic of mass killings, the more unreasonable the final solution will be. And, since I do not own, or ever intend to own, a semiauto, I don't really give a damn.

So, if we ban assault weapons, and the school shootings continue, will it be pistols next, then shotguns? I just want to know where you are willing to stop if we concede to ban assault weapons?

Mark

The only real changes to gun law being considered do not include banning any weapons. Let's be realistic. If improving the background check system and improving law enforcement's ability to remove guns from the hands of people on the brink, like Cruz, works, we might not need to ban anything. But I don't see people agreeing to reasonable alternatives.

 

[2aguy]

But he didn't. Ten round magazines. And no one is defending him. We are saying gun bans are stupid.

No, asshole. Had he gone in with a model 94 Winchester, when he had to reload, someone would have had a chance to take him down. Or get away. There is no reason for the assault weapons to be in the hands of civilians.

It appears you stance is now banning all semi automatic firearms. Is this true?

Mark

No, not yet. But about two more mass murders in churches, schools, and outdoor concerts, and I will be. You see, the more you gun nuts fail to come up with a solution, or fight any reasonable solution to this epidemic of mass killings, the more unreasonable the final solution will be. And, since I do not own, or ever intend to own, a semiauto, I don't really give a damn.

So, if we ban assault weapons, and the school shootings continue, will it be pistols next, then shotguns? I just want to know where you are willing to stop if we concede to ban assault weapons?

Mark

The only real changes to gun law being considered do not include banning any weapons. Let's be realistic. If improving the background check system and improving law enforcement's ability to remove guns from the hands of people on the brink, like Cruz, works, we might not need to ban anything. But I don't see people agreeing to reasonable alternatives.

I agree with you....we have something to agree on except the last part........even if we can't fix the background check system........and keep in mind the democrats are not going to allow it to be fixed...they are already fighting against fixing it........and improving the ability to take guns from dangerous nuts......I wouldn't be for banning any gun for law abiding people...since they aren't the ones using guns for crime or mass shootings...

As you see here......a magazine ban is stupid.......and any weapon ban is also stupid...

 

[OldLady]

No, asshole. Had he gone in with a model 94 Winchester, when he had to reload, someone would have had a chance to take him down. Or get away. There is no reason for the assault weapons to be in the hands of civilians.

It appears you stance is now banning all semi automatic firearms. Is this true?

Mark

No, not yet. But about two more mass murders in churches, schools, and outdoor concerts, and I will be. You see, the more you gun nuts fail to come up with a solution, or fight any reasonable solution to this epidemic of mass killings, the more unreasonable the final solution will be. And, since I do not own, or ever intend to own, a semiauto, I don't really give a damn.

So, if we ban assault weapons, and the school shootings continue, will it be pistols next, then shotguns? I just want to know where you are willing to stop if we concede to ban assault weapons?

Mark

The only real changes to gun law being considered do not include banning any weapons. Let's be realistic. If improving the background check system and improving law enforcement's ability to remove guns from the hands of people on the brink, like Cruz, works, we might not need to ban anything. But I don't see people agreeing to reasonable alternatives.

I agree with you....we have something to agree on except the last part........even if we can't fix the background check system........and keep in mind the democrats are not going to allow it to be fixed...they are already fighting against fixing it........and improving the ability to take guns from dangerous nuts......I wouldn't be for banning any gun for law abiding people...since they aren't the ones using guns for crime or mass shootings...

As you see here......a magazine ban is stupid.......and any weapon ban is also stupid...

I don't "see" that at all, but I am willing to take what I can get and see if it works. The dems are NOT opposed to fixing NICS. You cannot provide a link saying they do.

 

[TNHarley]

It is now being reported that the shooter used a cheap AR-15...which is likely why it malfunctioned.....and that he used 10 round magazines.......which would show, for people who don't understand that magazine capacity has no bearing on casualty rates in mass shootings.......that magazine bans are stupid.....

should this turn out to be accurate information......it shows that the demand for magazine limits are unnecessary and simply effect normal gun owners....

Nick Cruz used 10 round magazines for his AR-15

Several state legislators who visited the school with crime-scene investigators said they learned from police that Cruz’s rifle was not top-of-the-line, perhaps explaining the malfunction.
The “weapon and bullets were not high quality and were breaking apart,” one of the legislators, state Sen. Lauren Book, D-Plantation, told the Herald.
Cruz went in with only 10-round magazines because larger clips would not fit in his duffel bag, Book said.

Why are magazine bans stupid?

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1525107116674926

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

If he'd killed 35 using 30 round mags, you'd still be defending them

But he didn't. Ten round magazines. And no one is defending him. We are saying gun bans are stupid.

No, asshole. Had he gone in with a model 94 Winchester, when he had to reload, someone would have had a chance to take him down. Or get away. There is no reason for the assault weapons to be in the hands of civilians.

There is no reason for people to use curse words. Lets ban them.

 

[TNHarley]

For the second time, fuck you, asshole. I am with the kids. Enough, already. Damn you murdering assholes and your guns.

 

[martybegan]

But he didn't. Ten round magazines.

We can be grateful that at least he had those instead of 30 round magazines

3 seconds to change a magazine. 3 seconds

9 seconds for every 30 shots instead of 3 for every 30 if he had a 30 round mag

The point is, is that the rate of fire is considerably less than what you posted. The victims are at the very least hiding, and the shooter has to take aim to effect the most damage. That is why the size of the magazine doesn't count.

Mark

An amateur, dropping aim to put in a new magazine twice as often as if he had a 30 round mag buys his targets important seconds

Or maybe he would have jammed the weapon earlier with a larger magazine, as larger magazines have a higher chance of jamming, especially cheap ones in a cheap weapon.

The theoreticals can go just about any direction, but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Once again, it isn't about the magazine size, it's just a way of raising temperature in the pot a few more degrees without the frog noticing.

 

[2aguy]

It appears you stance is now banning all semi automatic firearms. Is this true?

Mark

No, not yet. But about two more mass murders in churches, schools, and outdoor concerts, and I will be. You see, the more you gun nuts fail to come up with a solution, or fight any reasonable solution to this epidemic of mass killings, the more unreasonable the final solution will be. And, since I do not own, or ever intend to own, a semiauto, I don't really give a damn.

So, if we ban assault weapons, and the school shootings continue, will it be pistols next, then shotguns? I just want to know where you are willing to stop if we concede to ban assault weapons?

Mark

The only real changes to gun law being considered do not include banning any weapons. Let's be realistic. If improving the background check system and improving law enforcement's ability to remove guns from the hands of people on the brink, like Cruz, works, we might not need to ban anything. But I don't see people agreeing to reasonable alternatives.

I agree with you....we have something to agree on except the last part........even if we can't fix the background check system........and keep in mind the democrats are not going to allow it to be fixed...they are already fighting against fixing it........and improving the ability to take guns from dangerous nuts......I wouldn't be for banning any gun for law abiding people...since they aren't the ones using guns for crime or mass shootings...

As you see here......a magazine ban is stupid.......and any weapon ban is also stupid...

I don't "see" that at all, but I am willing to take what I can get and see if it works. The dems are NOT opposed to fixing NICS. You cannot provide a link saying they do.

The dems are NOT opposed to fixing NICS.


You were saying...

They need dead people......stopping nuts from getting guns does not help them push their anti gun agenda...

Democrats Nix Fix NICs: Quote of the Day - The Truth About Guns

“I think that we’ve come to the conclusion that Fix NICS alone would be a mockery of the magnitude of the problem and also the seismic shift in public opinion around this issue.” Connecticut Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal

 

[TheOldSchool]

but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Less damage

 

[2aguy]

but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Less damage

No......the same damage...you know this, you saw the actual research...so now you are lying because the truth, the facts and the reality are not on your side..

 

[TheOldSchool]

but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Less damage

No......the same damage...you know this, you saw the actual research...so now you are lying because the truth, the facts and the reality are not on your side..

Same damage? Then why the need for 30 round magazines?

 

[martybegan]

but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Less damage

You don't know that. again his gun could have jammed because of the larger mag on the first clip.

 

[martybegan]

but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Less damage

No......the same damage...you know this, you saw the actual research...so now you are lying because the truth, the facts and the reality are not on your side..

Same damage? Then why the need for 30 round magazines?

It isn't about need, it's about useless gun control laws that are just about getting worse gun control laws down the road.

Gun controllers aren't fooling most people.

 

[Missourian]

but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Less damage

No......the same damage...you know this, you saw the actual research...so now you are lying because the truth, the facts and the reality are not on your side..

Same damage? Then why the need for 30 round magazines?

The same damage...because, when the gun jammed...no one did anything. He could have field stripped it, cleaned it and reassembled it in the time he had. 30 round or 10 round or 5 round...it makes no difference if there is no armed resistance.

 

[80zephyr]

Strangely, this isn't being widely reported...I wonder why?

National Review has a story...Report: Parkland Shooter Did Not Use High Capacity Magazines | National Review

Oh hurrah. He only killed 17 kids. What a derp, had he had 30 shot magazines, he could have gotten twice that many, and made your day. The rapidity of fire, and the ability to put in another magazine very quickly is what makes the assault rifles so dangerous. So, now that you have proven to us the size of the magazine makes no difference, let us get rid of the gun. That is what your logic leads to, and it is good logic.

I'm curious, have you read this thread at all? If I recall correctly, you badger others about being unscientific when it comes to climate, yet you are now denying solid studies about guns that show your stance to be wrong.

Mark

My, my, in all those studies, was there ever a shooting where one man with a Winchester 94 gunned down 58 people, and wounded another 500 is a matter of minutes? Or, for that matter, a Remington 760 pump gun? Was there ever a time when a shooter went into a church with a gun of either type, and gunned down over 20 people? How many times since Columbine has a revolver, or bolt, pump, or lever gun been used in mass murder as opposed to semi-autos of any type? Calling fucking bullshit on your 'scientific' study.

You are moving the goalposts. The study showed that large capacity magazines have no affect on the number of victims. THAT is what we were talking about. Now, are you contending that these studies are wrong?

As to your question, the following link shows that shotguns were used in mass shootings 23 times since 1982, while revolvers were used 18 times.

Weapons used in mass shootings in the U.S. 1982-2017 | Statistic

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

It appears you stance is now banning all semi automatic firearms. Is this true?

Mark

No, not yet. But about two more mass murders in churches, schools, and outdoor concerts, and I will be. You see, the more you gun nuts fail to come up with a solution, or fight any reasonable solution to this epidemic of mass killings, the more unreasonable the final solution will be. And, since I do not own, or ever intend to own, a semiauto, I don't really give a damn.

So, if we ban assault weapons, and the school shootings continue, will it be pistols next, then shotguns? I just want to know where you are willing to stop if we concede to ban assault weapons?

Mark

The only real changes to gun law being considered do not include banning any weapons. Let's be realistic. If improving the background check system and improving law enforcement's ability to remove guns from the hands of people on the brink, like Cruz, works, we might not need to ban anything. But I don't see people agreeing to reasonable alternatives.

I agree with you....we have something to agree on except the last part........even if we can't fix the background check system........and keep in mind the democrats are not going to allow it to be fixed...they are already fighting against fixing it........and improving the ability to take guns from dangerous nuts......I wouldn't be for banning any gun for law abiding people...since they aren't the ones using guns for crime or mass shootings...

As you see here......a magazine ban is stupid.......and any weapon ban is also stupid...

I don't "see" that at all, but I am willing to take what I can get and see if it works. The dems are

We can be grateful that at least he had those instead of 30 round magazines

3 seconds to change a magazine. 3 seconds

9 seconds for every 30 shots instead of 3 for every 30 if he had a 30 round mag

The point is, is that the rate of fire is considerably less than what you posted. The victims are at the very least hiding, and the shooter has to take aim to effect the most damage. That is why the size of the magazine doesn't count.

Mark

An amateur, dropping aim to put in a new magazine twice as often as if he had a 30 round mag buys his targets important seconds

Or maybe he would have jammed the weapon earlier with a larger magazine, as larger magazines have a higher chance of jamming, especially cheap ones in a cheap weapon.

The theoreticals can go just about any direction, but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Once again, it isn't about the magazine size, it's just a way of raising temperature in the pot a few more degrees without the frog noticing.

At Sandy Hook they recovered:


Mark

In the area of the shootings were six additional 30-round magazines and contained 0, 0, 0, 10, 11 and 13 live rounds, respectively.

 

[80zephyr]

but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Less damage

No......the same damage...you know this, you saw the actual research...so now you are lying because the truth, the facts and the reality are not on your side..

Same damage? Then why the need for 30 round magazines?

Because the shooter believes something does not make it true.

Mark

 

[2aguy]

but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Less damage

No......the same damage...you know this, you saw the actual research...so now you are lying because the truth, the facts and the reality are not on your side..

Same damage? Then why the need for 30 round magazines?

As this guy and the guy in Santa Barbara showed...mass shooters don't need 30 round magazines since they are shooting at unarmed people...no one is shooting back at them until the cops get their 5-7 minutes after they start shooting...they have plenty of time to change magazines or to pick up a different gun...

Law abiding citizens need 30 round magazines, if they want them, because they have to face down criminals and many times mass shooters....and having to stop to change magazines could mean their lives or the lives of their family.....since their attackers are likely armed or coming at them with more attackers than one at a time.....

You don't limit how much water a Fire Department gets to use to put out a fire in your home....you don't get to tell a family they only get 10 chances to stop the rapist, murderer or robber attacking their home.....

 

[Missourian]

but in the end he was able to do the damage with your cherished smaller magazines.

Less damage

No......the same damage...you know this, you saw the actual research...so now you are lying because the truth, the facts and the reality are not on your side..

Same damage? Then why the need for 30 round magazines?

As this guy and the guy in Santa Barbara showed...mass shooters don't need 30 round magazines since they are shooting at unarmed people...no one is shooting back at them until the cops get their 5-7 minutes after they start shooting...they have plenty of time to change magazines or to pick up a different gun...

Law abiding citizens need 30 round magazines, if they want them, because they have to face down criminals and many times mass shooters....and having to stop to change magazines could mean their lives or the lives of their family.....since their attackers are likely armed or coming at them with more attackers than one at a time.....

You don't limit how much water a Fire Department gets to use to put out a fire in your home....you don't get to tell a family they only get 10 chances to stop the rapist, murderer or robber attacking their home.....

Exactly.