Hate Crimes in NY Up 14%

[Tank]

Many white people have to be very cautious in the ways they interact with people of color, actions that should be considered normal are easily perceived as racist or even a "hate crime".

 

[Ravi]

Yet the example of "proof" repeatedly offered is if the perp is yelling epithets during the attack. That DOES NOT by itself prove premeditation (nor hatred necessarily).

sigh...I didn't mean it had to be premeditated...it had to be provable like premeditated murder. I don't know if there is a charge for premeditated assault.

Why would you yell fag while beating someone if you respected gay people?

I think this is a common misperception involving hate crime laws...That somehow if you happen to commit a crime where the victim is {fill in the blank} then you are automatically going to be charged with a hate crime...As if these {fill in the blank} get more protection than everyone else, but really these laws stand to protect ALL of us.


If I may presume to answer your question to Mani, you could think of my previous example where he calls the person dumb N***...He could do the same and say you stupid fag...Out of anger or frustration, in this case a scuffle...Sometimes people may say offensive things or even think offensive things, but the words alone or the thoughts alone are not criminal...It is the act that is criminal (say assault) and if the motivation for the criminal act can be proven to be sheer hatred toward any group the victim belongs to, the convicted criminal will be subject to enhanced punishment.




"Hate Crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, class, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity ..."

Hate crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That makes sense. I see that a slip of the tongue while angry isn't or shouldn't be considered a hate crime. That is different than beating someone up because of who they are while yelling it to them all during the beating.

 

[Valerie]

Many {white} people have to be very cautious in the ways they interact with {people of color},

actions that should be considered normal

are easily {perceived} as racist





or even a "hate crime".

Well, TANK you very much for that tremendous insight!




Again, for there to BE a "hate crime" conviction there has to FIRST be a crime!

 

[George Costanza]

People who are opposed to hate crime legislation are opposed to legislation designed to help minorities. That is the definition of covert racism. Covert racists do precisely that. They support programs that impede minorities and are opposed to programs that help minorities.

I am not at all "surprised" when posters such as these fling adolescent insults. Such is to be expected from posters of that ilk.

It might be a good idea to know the elements of a hate crime before pontificating on what it says or does not say. Here is a fairly accurate, general definition of a hate crime:



While I suppose a perp could "get it wrong," and attack someone who is not a member of one of the protected groups, in point of fact, this hardly ever happens. As such, hate crime legislation IS designed to protect minorities, and cannot be committed against just anyone, minority or not. (And since you seem to be pretty good at parsing words and phrases, let me point out that when I use the term "minority" in connection with hate crime legislation, I include in that term not only racial minorities, but also members of other minority groups such as gays, members of certain religious groups and members of certain ethnic groups.)



That doesn't mean that people here have not been supporting programs impeding minorities. It merely means that you don't recognize what they are doing as such.

You obviously are unaware of the concept of covert racism. Basically, covert racism (as opposed to overt racism) is the supporting of programs that impede minorities and opposition to programs that help minorities. Overt racism is no longer acceptable to our society. But that does not mean that attitudes toward minorities change. It merely means that these attitudes get expressed in different ways. A person who used the N-word or openly advocated for segregation, would be frowned upon in today's society. A person who opposes hate crime legislation for various straw man, bogus reasons, is not frowned upon, because his/her racism is hidden behind the false reasons given for opposition to whatever program is involved - in this case, hate crime legislation.

Covert racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You are correct. However, dragging up the unusual cases as proof that hate crime legislation is not effective, is illogical and wrong. The examples you give do not prove that hate crime legislation is ineffective. Far from it.

You wish to see racism from anyone opposing your view on this and so you do, regardless of the facts. You assume anyone who disagrees with you must support programs that impede minorities, which is utterly ridiculous. You talk about people flinging adolescent insults; are yours more adult, and therefore more palatable? Despite various arguments having nothing to do with racism or any other bigotry being put forth for why some of us oppose hate crime legislation, you have accused me and every other person opposed of being racists, apparently secure in your self-righteous ignorance that there is no possible reason other than racism to oppose such legislation. Now, if you said my opinion is wrong, or even that I'm an idiot for holding that opinion, it is one thing; making baseless accusations which are completely disconnected from the things I've posted is another. I imagine THAT is why you have seen these adolescent insults.

My opposition to hate crime legislation has nothing to do with racism. If you insist on ascribing reasons to my opposition I have neither stated nor hold, perhaps adolescent insults are all you deserve.

You may see my accusations as baseless. That does not mean that they are. In order to understand what I am talking about, one has to have an understanding of covert racism, and very few on this board do. I think if you took a good look at it, you would see my point.

I weary of adolescent insults on boards such as this. They are unavoidable, I suppose, but they do little to add to the credibility of those who use them, or those (like yourself) who defend their use on the grounds that if someone makes an argument you (or they) disagree with, then they somehow "deserve" to be insulted on a personal level.

I have made (and am making) what I think is a rational and factually supported, argument for the existence of covert racism and its application in the area of hate crime legislation. If you really think that this justifies my being called an "asshole" and a "fuckstain" by other posters here, then I suggest you join them on the playground at recess so that the adults can continue to debate this interesting and important issue.

As far as I can tell, hate crime legislation affects both those in the majority or the minority. Your post gave at least a possible implication that it is only for minorities, which seems to be untrue; hence my statement.

You make the argument that, just because there is no evidence of people supporting programs that impede minorities doesn't mean it isn't true. Well, of course anyone here MIGHT do so. They might not, as well; the point is a person's opposition to hate crime legislation does not automatically make it true. Do you not see how your posts have been insulting? Do you not see that you have called me a racist when you do not know me, have almost no knowledge of what I think, and on the very issue that caused you to draw this conclusion I have made no arguments based in racism or bigotry? You have basically said, "I don't know you, and you have said nothing of the sort, but because I have decided there is only one reason to oppose hate crime legislation, you are a racist. Oh, and further, despite my continuing lack of evidence, I also know that you support programs which impede minorities."

You can talk about overt and covert racism all you like. Calling me a hidden racist is as insulting as saying I am a racist openly, with as little reason behind it. You seem to be backtracking a bit and making this more of a hypothetical, but your previous posts made it an attack against every one of us who has posted against hate crime legislation. If you meant to say that there are some who oppose it for racist reasons, I agree completely. If you want agreement that there are some who are racist but hide those feelings, these covert racists, again I will agree. Neither of those things are what I said would cause you to deserve the adolescent insults, however. You have accused EVERY person who opposes hate crime legislation of racism (covert or otherwise). You claim you are using rational and factual arguments, but what you have done is to irrationally generalize based on almost no facts. Again, if that was not your intent and you merely meant to point out that some people who oppose the legislation are racist, please clarify that, because your previous posts have told a different tale.

God, we BOTH are pretty damn verbose, aren't we? But I digress . . .

OK, sure - I suppose that not EVERYONE who is opposed to hate crime legislation is a racist, covert or otherwise. But I'll say this - I know a very large number of people who are not racists. None of them are opposed to hate crime legislation.

You really should take the time to read up on covert racism, however. One of the major symptoms of it is that, quite often, covert racists do not perceive themselves as being so.

 

[Samson]

.... I know a very large number of people who are not racists.

.... quite often, covert racists do not perceive themselves as being so.

So, do you charge a fee to license those who you don't think are racists and who don't perceive themselves as such?

I'd like to apply, and give you my Two Cents, plus tax, and whatever the notary charges.

 

[Tank]

If you don't believe that crimes against children are also hate crimes too, then you are a pedifile.

 

[Montrovant]

God, we BOTH are pretty damn verbose, aren't we? But I digress . . .

OK, sure - I suppose that not EVERYONE who is opposed to hate crime legislation is a racist, covert or otherwise. But I'll say this - I know a very large number of people who are not racists. None of them are opposed to hate crime legislation.

You really should take the time to read up on covert racism, however. One of the major symptoms of it is that, quite often, covert racists do not perceive themselves as being so.

You know a large number of people you think are not racists. Just as you think a large number of those opposed to hate crime legislation are racist. In the former case, you at least have the advantage of actually being acquainted with the people; in the latter, you are extrapolating based on a person's view on a single issue.

I think you are too quick to assume people's thinking about this particular issue. I don't know why that is, but I can assure you, it is quite possible to oppose hate crime legislation without reasons based in racism. It is possible to oppose racism while accepting people's right to be racists. It is possible to believe everyone can hate whoever they want without believing anyone has a right to perform any illegal acts based upon that hate. And perhaps most importantly, it is possible that I and others are wrong in our opposition to hate crimes, but that the very lack of soundness of our beliefs in the matter allow us to do so without any racism, overt or covert.

And yes, I tend to get long-winded with these posts

 

[AllieBaba]

Hate crime legislation is stupid, as any mandatory sentencing is.

 

[Douger]

Former Israel president faces 4 years in jail after being found guilty of rape | EUTimes.net

 

[George Costanza]

God, we BOTH are pretty damn verbose, aren't we? But I digress . . .

OK, sure - I suppose that not EVERYONE who is opposed to hate crime legislation is a racist, covert or otherwise. But I'll say this - I know a very large number of people who are not racists. None of them are opposed to hate crime legislation.

You really should take the time to read up on covert racism, however. One of the major symptoms of it is that, quite often, covert racists do not perceive themselves as being so.

You know a large number of people you think are not racists. Just as you think a large number of those opposed to hate crime legislation are racist. In the former case, you at least have the advantage of actually being acquainted with the people; in the latter, you are extrapolating based on a person's view on a single issue.

I think you are too quick to assume people's thinking about this particular issue. I don't know why that is, but I can assure you, it is quite possible to oppose hate crime legislation without reasons based in racism. It is possible to oppose racism while accepting people's right to be racists. It is possible to believe everyone can hate whoever they want without believing anyone has a right to perform any illegal acts based upon that hate. And perhaps most importantly, it is possible that I and others are wrong in our opposition to hate crimes, but that the very lack of soundness of our beliefs in the matter allow us to do so without any racism, overt or covert.

And yes, I tend to get long-winded with these posts

I'm ready to close on that note. Been good jousting with you on this point. We'll meet again, I'm sure.

 

[Ravi]

Hate crime legislation is stupid, as any mandatory sentencing is.

So are you, dear.

 

[Synthaholic]

It's interesting and VERY telling that none of the fake conservatives on this site have denounced the OP.

By not denouncing the OP, they are denouncing Oxy Limbaugh's contention that there is no such thing as a hate crime.

 

[DiveCon]

It's interesting and VERY telling that none of the fake conservatives on this site have denounced the OP.

By not denouncing the OP, they are denouncing Oxy Limbaugh's contention that there is no such thing as a hate crime.

i guess you missed the point in the OP
figures
and no, i will NOT explain that point to you

 

[Synthaholic]

It's interesting and VERY telling that none of the fake conservatives on this site have denounced the OP.

By not denouncing the OP, they are denouncing Oxy Limbaugh's contention that there is no such thing as a hate crime.

i guess you missed the point in the OP
figures
and no, i will NOT explain that point to you

Please point out the conservatives in this thread who have said that there is no such thing as a hate crime.

Thanks.