Gun Control is meaningless and will only bring failures.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by nitroz, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. nitroz
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    nitroz INDEPENDENTly ruthless

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    First off, the sandy hook massacre sparked outrage because little children were the victims of this.

    Instead of assessing what happened, we got carried away and blamed guns.

    What happened was that The mother neglected the security of her firearm, knowing that her son was mentally unstable (to the point where she has tried to have him put in a mental hospital). All of this could have been prevented if she had:

    A) Got rid of the firearm
    B) Properly secured the firearm with the correct equipment
    C) Used a firearm safe for the ammunition and firearm

    But, no. She neglected this issue and not only did she end up ultimately paying for it, but so the the lives of 22 others at an elementary school.


    So what is our conclusion? The mother was at fault, due to her neglect.

    Gun violence is an issue, but the overall statistic of crime has drastically come down. Another consequence of the fractioned crime rate (I said fractioned, because it was reduced by 2/3, or even more) was that gun violence became the majority of the crime rate.

    Our problem isn't guns. Our problem is us.
    Regulation such as mandatory licensing, yearly license renewals, mandatory documentation (when a gun is sold, bough, sold to someone else, when ammo is bought, when address changes, purchase of attachments, etc), and Laws that require you to report a missing/stolen firearm immediately, or face heavy consequences. Would help alot, but thats the best we can do. Laws can only do so much. People can only do so much more.


    Banning guns will carry the streisand effect. We have to take account many different factors.

    1. There are tens of millions of guns in this country. How are you going to remove each one without violating anyone's constitutional rights and liberties?
    2. Many American businesses will be put out of work
    3. There will be a lucrative black market
    4. Gun violence would rise, while crime rates would explode.
    5. Illegal manufacturing without regulation could make weapons that are defective, and chances of someone getting hurt would skyrocket. (Where is that bullet going to go once the gun blows up? The user is allready injured, depending what the gun was made of)
    6. You wouldn't be able to keep them out of public hands anyway.

    If we are miserably failing at the war on drugs, then what makes you think that the war on guns would do any better without the grim consequences?

    Use common sense, now.

    The real problem is us.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  2. Oddball
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    Oddball BANNED Supporting Member

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    Um...That's exactly the point.

    Collectivist authoritarian goombahs look upon their failures as evidence that even more of their police state paternalism is called for.
     
  3. hazlnut
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    hazlnut Gold Member

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    Can't believe you're mod here.

    What a fucking joke.

    What redneck community college did you flunk out of?
     
  4. Darkwind
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    Darkwind Gold Member

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    Gun control means never needing the second clip.
     
  5. gallantwarrior
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    gallantwarrior Gold Member

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    Ignoring the fact that most of those issues have already been addressed in many existing laws, any new laws and their failure will just result in the gun grabbers screaming for more useless laws. Until we move away from blaming the prop and not the actor, there is no legislation that will stop the violence.
     
  6. Inthemiddle
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    Inthemiddle BANNED

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    The real problem in all of this is that the Sandy Hook tragedy should never have been a debate about guns. The real issue has been entirely overlooked, and that is our society's attitudes about mental health.
     
  7. OohPooPahDoo
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    A firearm safe?

    Sorry how are you supposed to use a gun to defend yourself if its locked in a safe?

    The mother was not at fault you retard. The shooter was at fault. Everyone always wants to blame the friggin' mother.

    We could also keep assault rifles out of the hands of joe citizen but hey - why would we want to cut down on the kill counts of wacko nutjobs?


    1. Pay money for them.
    2. A fucking retarded argument if I ever heard one, maybe we should make owning hand grenades legal because it will create jobs. Besides most of the gun dealers should be able to retire after the killing they made off of OBama winning two elections.
    3. A lucrative black market that I'm sure mentally unstable 20 year olds with no criminal past and no criminal connections like Lanza will be able to just walk into and buy guns from like its a Wal-Mart - right? Kind of like the lucrative European black market for guns - its there - you're right - there's also a lot less gun violence.
    4. Your ability to predict the future is amazing. Can you please elaborate?
    5. WHO THE FUCK CARES IF CRIMINALS ARE INJURED BY THE ILLEGAL WEAPONS THEY BUY, SERIOUSLY? THAT'S YOUR ARGUMENT?

    6. Yeah - because that's why the public is running around with fully-automatic assault rifles, live hand grenades, silencers, nuclear weapons - etc - all those things are illegal, but you can't keep them out of the public's hands, which is why everyone I know has them.




    I guess we should eliminate all laws. They are all doomed to failure, right? We are failing at the war on drugs, what makes you think we'd be successful in the war on rape, or murder, or leaded gasoline? I mean heck they made leaded gasoline illegal a while back but its everywhere, right?
     
  8. gallantwarrior
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    gallantwarrior Gold Member

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    I find I agree with you on this issue. .
     
  9. Inthemiddle
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    Simple, you take it out of the safe. :eusa_shhh:

    In fact, the mother was an irresponsible gun owner. Securing your weapon is a fundamental part of responsible gun ownership. She failed to do so here.

    Why are you talking about automatic weapons? That has nothing to do with this. No automatic weapons were used.

    Here, you further the real problem in all of this, which is poor social attitudes regarding mental health issues. You're helping to create the next massacre.

    Straw man. Nobody is arguing that we should make hand grenades legal. Not only that, but the comparison is completely off the mark. There is a difference between trying to ban an already widely available kind of item, while it's a different thing to suggest that we make legally available an item that is not generally available through either legal or illegal means.

    Yep, that's the kind. You seem to be under the mistaken belief that illegal smugglers and retailers give a care about to whom they sell. All they care about is whether you have the cash.

    Like Switzerland? The land where the government issues a fully automatic weapon to every able bodied man, for him to keep in his home. Their crime rates are among the lowest in the world.

    5. WHO THE FUCK CARES IF CRIMINALS ARE INJURED BY THE ILLEGAL WEAPONS THEY BUY, SERIOUSLY? THAT'S YOUR ARGUMENT?
    [/quote]

    Apparently, you weren't paying attention. A malfunctioning weapon has the potential to injure not just the user, but many innocent people as well.


    I'm sorry, I'm confused. So you're admitting that automatic weapons are not actually a problem???

    We should learn from failures of the past. What you fail to understand is that the power behind laws is not that people will follow them, it's that the state can prosecute people for violating them. No law, by its existence, provides adherence thereto. If it did, then there would be no need for the justice system, for police, etc. Let's take murder. The fact that murder is illegal has no substantial deterent effect on it happening. As we all know, murder continues to be daily fact of life the country over. The reason we have murder laws is not in hopes of preventing murder. It is a foolish and naive person who may think that that was the purpose. Even in states where the death penalty is legal murder rates do not subside. The power of laws against murder is that we can prosecute those people who commit murder. We can remove these people from society, both as punishment toward them, and as a means to preserving our own safety.

    The same is true for rape, theft, burglary, etc. As you notice, all of these laws are laws that prosecute specific and actual behaviors that have created real and actual harm toward others. There is a second set of laws, though, that have been enacted in hopes of preventing behaviors from occurring. And we have seen in every case that such laws never work. Alcohol prohibition, drug prohibition, prostitution, abortion, homosexuality, and yes, gun control laws. While it's true that violation of these laws has/had criminal sanctions attached whereas offenders could be prosecuted, all of the laws against these acts are primarily intended to PREVENT the actions in the first place. These are all actions that are not in and of themselves harmful to anyone. Nobody (except maybe yourself) is harmed if you drink alcohol, smoke pot, hire a hooker to have sex with you, etc. These are actions that will, MIGHT involve something dangerous IN THE FUTURE. The result of these laws has been repeated and utter failure to accomplish the intended goals, and has at times led to additional undesirable consequences.

    Alcohol prohibition never stopped anyone from drinking alcohol, but it lead to the proliferation of organized crime in our country to staggering heights, so much so that a century later living with widespread gangs is a petty fact of life. The "War on Drugs" has lead to severe corruption in the corrections systems across the country, has cost countless tax dollars, and has lead to the rise of the cartels. It is easier to buy heroin than it is to return a defective piece of merchandise at your local Wal-Mart. Prostitution continues to be widespread and easily accessible, and is a major public health issue. That fact could be mitigated through legalization and basic regulation. Laws against abotions resulted in bloody messes that often got women killed. And as we all know, teh gayz are still heer. There are many states that have heavily restrictive gun laws, yet they still have plenty of gun violence.

    Our approach to gun policy needs to take a lesson from these past (and in some cases continuing) mistakes. Prohibition will not do any better a job of preventing gun proliferation than it has ever done with anything else. And prosecuting people for possessing a gun, after the fact is discovered, will not serve to make the public more safe. Because generally speaking, this will not be discovered until AFTER a violent crime has occurred. Therefore, we need to focus our policy away from this notion of preventing gun proliferation, and instead focus on education of responsible ownership, perhaps some mild legal sanctions for basic responsibility (like those who fail to secure their weapons), and other policing efforts that help to reduce crime across the board.
     
  10. nitroz
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    nitroz INDEPENDENTly ruthless

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    Apparently, you weren't paying attention. A malfunctioning weapon has the potential to injure not just the user, but many innocent people as well.


    I'm sorry, I'm confused. So you're admitting that automatic weapons are not actually a problem???

    We should learn from failures of the past. What you fail to understand is that the power behind laws is not that people will follow them, it's that the state can prosecute people for violating them. No law, by its existence, provides adherence thereto. If it did, then there would be no need for the justice system, for police, etc. Let's take murder. The fact that murder is illegal has no substantial deterent effect on it happening. As we all know, murder continues to be daily fact of life the country over. The reason we have murder laws is not in hopes of preventing murder. It is a foolish and naive person who may think that that was the purpose. Even in states where the death penalty is legal murder rates do not subside. The power of laws against murder is that we can prosecute those people who commit murder. We can remove these people from society, both as punishment toward them, and as a means to preserving our own safety.

    The same is true for rape, theft, burglary, etc. As you notice, all of these laws are laws that prosecute specific and actual behaviors that have created real and actual harm toward others. There is a second set of laws, though, that have been enacted in hopes of preventing behaviors from occurring. And we have seen in every case that such laws never work. Alcohol prohibition, drug prohibition, prostitution, abortion, homosexuality, and yes, gun control laws. While it's true that violation of these laws has/had criminal sanctions attached whereas offenders could be prosecuted, all of the laws against these acts are primarily intended to PREVENT the actions in the first place. These are all actions that are not in and of themselves harmful to anyone. Nobody (except maybe yourself) is harmed if you drink alcohol, smoke pot, hire a hooker to have sex with you, etc. These are actions that will, MIGHT involve something dangerous IN THE FUTURE. The result of these laws has been repeated and utter failure to accomplish the intended goals, and has at times led to additional undesirable consequences.

    Alcohol prohibition never stopped anyone from drinking alcohol, but it lead to the proliferation of organized crime in our country to staggering heights, so much so that a century later living with widespread gangs is a petty fact of life. The "War on Drugs" has lead to severe corruption in the corrections systems across the country, has cost countless tax dollars, and has lead to the rise of the cartels. It is easier to buy heroin than it is to return a defective piece of merchandise at your local Wal-Mart. Prostitution continues to be widespread and easily accessible, and is a major public health issue. That fact could be mitigated through legalization and basic regulation. Laws against abotions resulted in bloody messes that often got women killed. And as we all know, teh gayz are still heer. There are many states that have heavily restrictive gun laws, yet they still have plenty of gun violence.

    Our approach to gun policy needs to take a lesson from these past (and in some cases continuing) mistakes. Prohibition will not do any better a job of preventing gun proliferation than it has ever done with anything else. And prosecuting people for possessing a gun, after the fact is discovered, will not serve to make the public more safe. Because generally speaking, this will not be discovered until AFTER a violent crime has occurred. Therefore, we need to focus our policy away from this notion of preventing gun proliferation, and instead focus on education of responsible ownership, perhaps some mild legal sanctions for basic responsibility (like those who fail to secure their weapons), and other policing efforts that help to reduce crime across the board.[/quote]

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