Guilty Until Proven Innocent Or The Severe Drought Of Freedom

[Mertex]

Ok I don't have enough time to respond to all the posts so let me work on Mertex.

I am not against cameras on school buses. Technology is a two edged sword, good and bad, and there is a whole lot of gray area. But...........

NSA is different. If you don't think NSA will be used at some point to affect a national election, you are naive. All you need is a critical senate race to swing the senate one way or the other and an over zealous appointee will make some very sensitive info available to the political committee to be used to blackmail someone. Don't think it could happen, right like the irs could never be used as a political weapon. And the potential to high jack our whole political system with personal,information in the wrong hands is more likely than possible. And the great thing for the perpetrators here is that no one would ever know, cause no one knows now.

Are you serious. In this day and age, anything you say and do can be resurrected in video. If you think that a "party" whether they have the majority or not in the Senate or House can pull off something so flagrant as that, you must have very little faith in the integrity of the majority of people. All the talk about voter fraud has not yielded but a few cases and they weren't even all from the party being suspected and why the issue even came up. Politicians might have been able to get away with a lot more in the past, but thanks to cameras and observant people, that has gone down considerably. Look what just happened to the NFL player....he probably thought nobody would ever find out he punched his wife's lights out and he could keep doing it.

Ah yes guns, I think now you are trying to get me where you want me to be. You know I find some people that want to ban guns to be more bloodthirsty than those that own guns. There is not one sane gun owner that believes a nine year old needs to be handling an Uzi, so you and most gun owners are in agreement. As far as handing guns down, I guess you think all of us guns owners are paranoid seal team wannabes.(you want this image to be coupled with the conservative Christian bit that comes latter along with implied tea party kook bit to totally discredit). How about if I wanted to pass along a pistol my grandfather used on the beaches of Normandy as a momento of our family. I don't worry about arming my children M because if our freedoms remain intact and my children decide they want to own a firearm they can go get one themselves.

First of all, I have never said that I want to ban guns, so right there you are already jumping to erroneous conclusions. My brother and father were hunters, my son served in Iraq and knows how to assemble and disassemble a weapon, and another of my sons also hunts, so, I have respect for responsible gun ownership and use. And you say that there is not one sane gun owner that believes a nine year old needs to be handling an Uzi, and yet, I bet the little girl's parents consider themselves quite sane. There were other children shooting guns at that range at the time of that incident, and I know many that believe it's great to have their young children get training in how to shoot a gun. That is what is so bizarre, most of the ones arguing for the 2nd Amendment believing that everyone wants to take that away from them, all think of themselves as very responsible gun owners, yet we keep hearing about so many kids ending up dead because such responsible gun owners leave them laying around where their young children can have access to them, or they think that children have the same mind set as an adult and can be trusted with guns.

Nobody would accuse the father of the 9 year as not being sane.

The devastated dad whose 9-year-old daughter accidentally killed an instructor with a mini Uzi is an ivy league-educated financial whiz from New Jersey, sources confirm.

Alexander MacLachlan, 43, oversees investment funds worth $1.5 billion at Dixon Advisory, an Australian firm with an office in Jersey City, according to his firm's website.

Father of 9-year-old who fatally shot gun instructor with Uzi is a rich wealth adviser from New Jersey - NY Daily News

The prayer deal shows an area of greatest division between liberals and conservatives. This country was founded on judeo Christian beliefs. That's what this country is about. It is our tradition and our identity. Tolerance of other religions is a by product of this not a point that diminishes our original Christian foundations. So a Christian prayer at a football game is not a negation of other religions, as it would be if we were in a Muslim country, but a affirmation of American culture and tradition. Let's celebrate the Muslim, Buddhist , and atheist prayer circles at the football games right after we say our prayer, but let's stop laying a guilt trip on Americana in the name of what Americana is about.

That argument (this country founded on judeo Christian beliefs) has been discussed over and over. Some of our founding fathers did not believe in God, and if most did that is great, however, this country has welcomed people from all over the world, from all kinds of religions and prides itself on being the great melting pot. These people that have come here with different religions, pay taxes and love this country just as much as those of us who have descended from the ones that came here first. So, why, would we now want to declare that the United States should become everything Christian? I would love it if it was, because I believe if people really practiced Christianity there wouldn't be all the hate and distrust that we have, but that is not the case. And, it goes against our Constitution to discriminate and to make one religion superior over others. After all, Christians are under Jesus's mandate to try and convert people by loving them and making them want to be part of something that makes people loving and kind, not by being hateful and acting like our beliefs are superior and theirs are unimportant and disregarding them as equal citizens that we can trod all over them. Why does the Christian prayer have to be the one said over the loud speaker and everyone have to listen to it whether they are Christian or not?

You didn't answer my question. Would you give the same value to a Muslim wanting to pray over the loud speaker to Allah? To a Buddha? If you can say yes....then maybe you do want to be fair, but if you say no, you are not even adhering to what the Constitution dictates.

M did you ever get my check?

I am sure I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Mathbud1]

I worked for a small company that had about 50-60 employees. Part of the time working there I sat in a desk that had a camera trained on it 24/7. Now I work for a company that has 30,000 employees, and there is no camera anywhere near my desk. So is this really a Big Business problem?

 

[Mathbud1]

In many cases, the cameras on every street corner have helped to solve crimes that probably would have never been solved. The cameras in school buses protect the driver as well as the students. There have been cases where drivers are texting and driving and have caused accidents. Certainly the camera is of help in this case. Other times, the students on a bus have bullied and beat up a student, without the camera it would be hard to prove that the bullies were indeed committing a crime, and probably would go unpunished. And, the NSA is not spying on all our conversations. People spreading misinformation just begets fear. We already have enough media sources promoting fear where there is none to be had. The NSA, while they may be tracking every conversation, will likely not be listening to millions and millions of conversations just to pass the time, but if there were reason for them to do so (like they did in the Boston marathon snipers), they are able to find connections that help them solve crimes.

We live in very progressive times, technology is available and will be used accordingly. What I don't understand is why you would want to give a gun to your children. Are you living in such a fearful neighborhood/town/state that you feel you need to arm your children? I suppose that you support the parents who provided shooting lessons to their 9 year old, to learn how to shoot an Uzi and ended up killing the instructor? That child will have that seared into her mind forever....what a wonderful gift from the parents, don't you think?

As for not being able to say a prayer before a high school athletic event, that is pure BS. I can pray any time of night or day and nobody can stop me. What you are wanting is for everyone to acquiesce to your beliefs and allow you to pray a Christian prayer. Would you feel obligated to allow a Muslim, a Buddhist or any other religion to be allowed to do the same? Of course not. I'm a Christian, but as a Christian I also believe that we have to be fair. Fair to everyone in the United States that pays taxes and not push my beliefs on others whether they like it or not. That is something that some conservative Christians are having a difficult time accepting.

While some aspects of what you have said may be true, I think you are exaggerating far beyond what really is.

They can never stop you from having a prayer in your heart. Praying out loud always seemed so pretentious to me anyway. I don't pray as a show for others to see.

I agree with your point about the NSA. With millions of communications happening real-time constantly, the NSA would have to have millions of employees to keep up. The fact that they monitor everything just creates a horde of data that could never be explored fully. Targeted searches and maybe keyword triggers are the only thing you would really need to worry about. Honestly, the more data they collect, the safer each individual conversation becomes. Until and unless you attract their attention, you probably have nothing to fear.

 

[Shrimpbox]

Good post M but let me rebut again.

I do think the majority of people are good people but almost all great events have been controlled by a very small group of people. Are you not aware of the tale of the irs? Lois Lerner was a democratic operative at a high level in the irs. She had reinforcement from the top to violate the law in order to give the Democratic Party the edge. She broke many laws, then she covered her tracks, then she lied and then she took the fifth. The democrats in govt liked what she did so they covered for her and the attorney general will not prosecute any lawbreakers if they are doing the democrats work. Tapes have been erased, records destroyed, govt officials stonewalling, and the press ignoring the whole issue. The whole crime is going to be swept under the rug. Don't you see a precedent here. Where are your good people standing up for truth and justice? Who is being punished or even who is accountable? I say this respectfully, but you are naive if you think justice will be done in the absence of the law being enforced.

I don't know where voter Id came into the conversation but the tens of thousands of voters double registered in different states qualifies as serious voter fraud to me.

Ok ray rice in the elevator. He now claims that the tape has been edited to cut out the complete episode, I don't know if it has or not, but the tape of Zimmerman calling 911 was edited to create the effect of a racist. All information from cameras and other things can be manipulated, so you are wrong to consider all these surveillance mechanisms a panacea of truth.

I can't add anything to the gun debate that hasn't been said and if most are like me they are bored by it.

"So why should we want to declare that the us should become everything Christian?" I never said that or even advocated that. I am sorry that I do not seem to be able to get the point across. I want our country to maintain and celebrate our identity, our history, our traditions, and our principles. By doing that we insure that there continues to be freedom of religion. Paying taxes has no relationship to our fundamental rights. No I wouldn't want to let a Muslim grab the loudspeaker and have a prayer to Allah in central Texas before a football game and I suspect a large majority of Americans would agree with me, but that does not mean their religion in my eyes is any less than Christianity and I would go to the mat to help ensure that Muslims had a chance to practice their religion peacefully, but that is not this country's identity. You want us to change and adjust to all these cultures and religions and I want these cultures and religions to change and adjust to America.

LOL, the reference to the check came from a post you made in response to me asking about how I got trophy points. You said I could thank you for that and find some way to repay you. I posted that the check was in the mail

Good debate. Thank you.

 

[Mertex]

Good post M but let me rebut again.

I do think the majority of people are good people but almost all great events have been controlled by a very small group of people. Are you not aware of the tale of the irs? Lois Lerner was a democratic operative at a high level in the irs. She had reinforcement from the top to violate the law in order to give the Democratic Party the edge. She broke many laws, then she covered her tracks, then she lied and then she took the fifth. The democrats in govt liked what she did so they covered for her and the attorney general will not prosecute any lawbreakers if they are doing the democrats work. Tapes have been erased, records destroyed, govt officials stonewalling, and the press ignoring the whole issue. The whole crime is going to be swept under the rug. Don't you see a precedent here. Where are your good people standing up for truth and justice? Who is being punished or even who is accountable? I say this respectfully, but you are naive if you think justice will be done in the absence of the law being enforced.

Of course I'm aware of the IRS story....I am also aware of the many investigations that Republicans have done on the Benghazi tragedy without yielding any results that they can use to demean the president or Hillary Clinton, but instead have wasted millions of tax-payer's money chasing a scandal that doesn't exist. The Republican leaders in their quest to make Benghazi as tragic as 9/11 have discounted what even the Military leaders have reported in spite of their claim that they support and believe in the Military. And even just recently, a committee made up of mostly Republicans have finally admitted that there is nothing there, that the WH did not try to cover up anything. But, I believe yet another Republican committee is willing to spend more money and go another round. Go figure.

So, we can choose to believe that which we want to believe, or we can research and try to find the truth. Neither party is immune from trying go gain ground, but the fact that they are almost always found out says a lot about our system of government, in the end, they are forced to be accountable when they step out of line or if it appears they may be stepping out of line.

Lerner has not been charged with lying, and didn't break any laws. There were Democratic organizations that were also left hanging, waiting for tax exempt status and none of the Republican organizations were denied in the end.
I believe that no organization whether Republican or Democratic should be given tax exempt status if they are not adhering to the rules set up for such, and are being set up strictly as political organizations. Some of the Tea Party organizations in question were said to be strictly political in nature. Why should we be paying for them?

“The notion that we're targeting anyone, I think, is off because, you know, these people are going through an application process that they voluntarily decide to do that isn't required under the law,” Shulman said at the Wednesday hearing.
Sen. Orrin Hatch (Utah), the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee and one of the lawmakers who signed that letter, told The Hill this week that he had full faith that the IRS was so far acting responsibly.
IRS takes heat from both GOP Dems over Tea Party groups tax-exempt status TheHill

The IRS' inspector general said in a report last year that tax-exempt applications from tea party and other conservative groups were set aside for special scrutiny simply because they included words such as "tea party" and "patriots." Several hundred applications, from both conservative and liberal groups, languished for years without a ruling by the IRS, the report said.
Blog House to pursue criminal charges against Lois Lerner

I don't know where voter Id came into the conversation but the tens of thousands of voters double registered in different states qualifies as serious voter fraud to me.

That voters may be double registered does not indicate voter fraud. Unless it can be proven that they voted more than once, there is no voter fraud. There is bound to be some mistakes made at election, after all, most of the people working the elections are just common people, trying to do their best. The investigations that have been directed toward finding voter fraud have yielded very few cases, and some of them have been conservatives that have been caught. For all we know, the double registration could be credited to clerical error.

Nearly all double voter registrations uncovered by a Kansas program that compares registration records of more than two dozen states are the unintentional result of people moving from one state to another and re-registering to vote, Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach said.
Kris Kobach s Kansas voter program checks nationwide for possible double voting CJOnline.com

The recent report by Election Integrity Maryland that there may be as many as 164 individuals who voted in both Maryland and Virginia in the 2012 election hasn't exactly caused the Maryland Board of Elections to press the panic button. There's a reason for that: The numbers don't prove fraud and more likely point to clerical error.
Widespread voter fraud in Maryland is unlikely - Baltimore Sun

Ok ray rice in the elevator. He now claims that the tape has been edited to cut out the complete episode, I don't know if it has or not, but the tape of Zimmerman calling 911 was edited to create the effect of a racist. All information from cameras and other things can be manipulated, so you are wrong to consider all these surveillance mechanisms a panacea of truth.

I don't know what Zimmerman has to do with this conversation, but that was a Television station that did that and they were found out, and have since apologized as they should have.
I don't know what could have been cut out of Rice's video that would make his actions more acceptable. If he believes that the tape has been altered, I'm sure there are experts that can figure that out, but so far I've not heard of it.

I can't add anything to the gun debate that hasn't been said and if most are like me they are bored by it.

"So why should we want to declare that the us should become everything Christian?" I never said that or even advocated that. I am sorry that I do not seem to be able to get the point across. I want our country to maintain and celebrate our identity, our history, our traditions, and our principles. By doing that we insure that there continues to be freedom of religion. Paying taxes has no relationship to our fundamental rights. No I wouldn't want to let a Muslim grab the loudspeaker and have a prayer to Allah in central Texas before a football game and I suspect a large majority of Americans would agree with me, but that does not mean their religion in my eyes is any less than Christianity and I would go to the mat to help ensure that Muslims had a chance to practice their religion peacefully, but that is not this country's identity. You want us to change and adjust to all these cultures and religions and I want these cultures and religions to change and adjust to America.

You are advocating that Christianity be considered the religion of the United States, but it isn't. Our country is made up of many people, all having different history, traditions and principles. Why should the traditions, principles and history of those whose roots come from England have superiority over those whose roots come from Mexico, Canada, China, Japan, or wherever? There is freedom of religion. In some countries Christians are persecuted. In America, everyone has the freedom to practice whatever religion they want, even some that don't have a religion are free to not have one.

Of course taxes has everything to do with our fundamental rights. By paying taxes you are supporting the infrastructure, government, defense, law enforcement, fire protection and environmental protection of this country, and are entitled to every civil right this country offers. I don't have to participate in a Muslin ritual so why should they have to participate in a Christian ritual? I don't want us to change....our Constitution dictates the way we are supposed to be, you are the one that is advocating that everyone acquiesce to Christian rituals, and our Constitution clearly states the government has no business promoting any religion.

LOL, the reference to the check came from a post you made in response to me asking about how I got trophy points. You said I could thank you for that and find some way to repay you. I posted that the check was in the mail

Good debate. Thank you.

Oh, I had completely forgotten about that....that must have been a while back.....and no, you're supposed to send the check to USMB....I remember saying that....Lol!

I enjoyed debating with you and the fact that we could remain civil in spite of our differences!