Greece tells banking cartel STICK IT

[SAYIT]

How's that con-federate flag working for you. Have you won the civil war yet.

Eat shit, asshole.
Greece is done.

Why do you hate Greece? They do make some good yogurt yeah. Or maybe you hate yogurt too and hope yogurt is done. LOL

Relax Newman. Go take a run down Forrest Gump boulevard, you'll feel better.

I hate socialist scumbags and the entitlement junkies who vote for them. People like you.

Norway does pretty well. Even the conservatives there are socialists.

Amazing what an expensive natural resource will do for a small country. Unfortunately they look due to run out of other people's money as well.
Oil Price Decline Forces Structural Change on Norway

I don't get the tendency of socialism's defenders to cherry-pick their very small successes - even if they are temporary and based on an anomaly like oil reserves - while ignoring the economic destruction and human suffering caused by socialist gov't policies. Most of the world's more strident collectivist countries have diminished or abandoned their socialist experiments because once they ran out of oil wealth or other peep's cash their economies became unsustainable.
The idea that we must take care of each other - while a noble concept - just doesn't work. The fact that massive gov't confiscation of private wealth for the good of the "Worker's Paradise" can only be accomplished at gunpoint is most revealing.

 

[SAYIT]

Greece is done.

Not even close.

ROFLMAO!!!!! Sure. They jsut need to keep spending money to avoid bankruptcy.

Which for at least the past 20 yrs has been Greece's grand economic plan ... to spend her way out of economic malaise using OPC (other peep's cash).

 

[Steinlight]

You don't get into debt by not spending. You get into debt by spending money you don't have.

You get out of debt by making more money. The country will make more money by expanding the tax base. You do that with large public works projects, as FDR did.

We can do the same by massive infrastructure spending on roads, bridges, new airports, seawalls (climate change), and more Green installations, in solar panels, wind, etc.

Where is the money for your "massive infrastructure spending"(of an unspecified amount) going to come from?

Borrowed.

How much? And how do you intend to pay it back?

 

[Steinlight]

Greece is done.

Not even close.

Greece represents the failure of Democratic Socialism (Social Democracy). It is economically obsolete.

 

[Andylusion]

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

LOL

Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.

And told the banks to stick it? The banks? LOL

Dude the banks are fine. Greece is who is screwed.

Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes

The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss. The IMF almost never takes a loss.

18% is bonds. That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions). That's the public.

3% is Greek banks. So the public will eat that loss, if they default.

The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.

1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.

60%, is the Eurozone...... Whose that? Tax payers.

So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults? Tax payers. Not the banks. Not the wealthy. Not the rich. Not "cartels". Not the 'multi-national corporations'.

It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU.... the pensioners and Unions. That's who is screwed.

You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks. You have blown off your own foot.

Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.

When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.

The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head. Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.

Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

 

[IsaacNewton]

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

I really hate posting things more than once.

Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.

Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.

But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.

And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.

It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."

 

[sealybobo]

When we got robbed by

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

LOL

Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.

And told the banks to stick it? The banks? LOL

Dude the banks are fine. Greece is who is screwed.

Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes

The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss. The IMF almost never takes a loss.

18% is bonds. That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions). That's the public.

3% is Greek banks. So the public will eat that loss, if they default.

The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.

1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.

60%, is the Eurozone...... Whose that? Tax payers.

So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults? Tax payers. Not the banks. Not the wealthy. Not the rich. Not "cartels". Not the 'multi-national corporations'.

It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU.... the pensioners and Unions. That's who is screwed.

You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks. You have blown off your own foot.

Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.

When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.

The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head. Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.

Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism

 

[sealybobo]

And I don't think explaining everything that happened since Reagan to George Bush's end of his term will do anything to prove anything to Republicans because they lived through it and denied it the entire time everything that was happening such dis honest Prix

 

[Andylusion]

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less

Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.

The tax payers made money on the bailout.

First off, that's not true. There was tons of money, hidden in the books, that was not counted as part of TARP.

But even if it was true... that's exactly what the banks want you focus on. Maybe.... MAYBE... this time we come out ahead. Then the next time the banks make billions in bad bets, they'll say "well last time you made money.... so bail us out even more this time!" Playing right into their hands. Like they have their hand up your butt, making you talk.

 

[SAYIT]

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

I really hate posting things more than once.

Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.

Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.

But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.

And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.

It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."

Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.

 

[Andylusion]

When we got robbed by

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

LOL

Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.

And told the banks to stick it? The banks? LOL

Dude the banks are fine. Greece is who is screwed.

Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes

The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss. The IMF almost never takes a loss.

18% is bonds. That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions). That's the public.

3% is Greek banks. So the public will eat that loss, if they default.

The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.

1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.

60%, is the Eurozone...... Whose that? Tax payers.

So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults? Tax payers. Not the banks. Not the wealthy. Not the rich. Not "cartels". Not the 'multi-national corporations'.

It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU.... the pensioners and Unions. That's who is screwed.

You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks. You have blown off your own foot.

Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.

When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.

The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head. Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.

Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism

You don't even understand that what you are saying is a logical impossibility.

You can't have government funding something, and it be "capitalism". The MOMENT that government gives money to ANYTHING... it's not capitalism anymore.

Milton Friedman said over and over "Capitalism is a profit and loss system. Profit encourages risk taking, and loss encourages prudence". If you remove the loss......... by having government fund the loss...... it's not capitalism anymore.

Capitalism, isn't "force tax payers to pay for our business". That view right there... is completely incompatible with Capitalism.

Socialism, is government taxing the public, to pay for things. Government taxed the public, to pay for a bailout. What was the bailout? Government buying assets. I have yet to see any definition of "socialism" that doesn't include the concept of "government buying and/or controlling assets". That's what it is.

To deny this means you are either at an extreme level of ignorance, or a complete level of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[dcraelin]

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

LOL

Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.

And told the banks to stick it? The banks? LOL

Dude the banks are fine. Greece is who is screwed.

Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes

The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss. The IMF almost never takes a loss.

18% is bonds. That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions). That's the public.

3% is Greek banks. So the public will eat that loss, if they default.

The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.

1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.

60%, is the Eurozone...... Whose that? Tax payers.

So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults? Tax payers. Not the banks. Not the wealthy. Not the rich. Not "cartels". Not the 'multi-national corporations'.

It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU.... the pensioners and Unions. That's who is screwed.

You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks. You have blown off your own foot.

Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.

When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.

The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head. Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.

Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

and they should walk away

but that would leave the taxpayers of Europe (and America since I believe we contribute to the IMF) on the hook because the scum bankers already bought the politicians who bailed them out.

What should happen is that every corrupt banker that facilitated the rt-leaning Greek governments hiding of debt should be thrown in jail and their assets confiscated for the benefit of the European taxpayers. Then the rt leaning greek politicians who ran up the debt should face the same actions.

 

[Bleipriester]

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

Nonsense. The Greeks voted for the end of the austerity agenda in the last elections. Unavoidable is the collapse of the banks as the people try to get their money in the moment the government faces bankruptcy. The European countries and the IMF have saved Greece several times from that scenario but for Greece´s attempt to consolidate its finances. For years the Greeks knew that this would be coming and they did nothing about it. Now they want Europe to feed them for ever?

A bank never gives a loan to a person that will waste it in McDonald´s and gambling halls because this person will not be able to pay it back. This also applies for Greece and even the Euro fanatics start to realize that Greece is unwilling to play by the rules.

 

[sealybobo]

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

I really hate posting things more than once.

Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.

Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.

But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.

And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.

It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."

Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.

I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.

I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.

They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.

The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.

We should have said oxi.

 

[Steinlight]

When we got robbed by

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

LOL

Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.

And told the banks to stick it? The banks? LOL

Dude the banks are fine. Greece is who is screwed.

Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes

The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss. The IMF almost never takes a loss.

18% is bonds. That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions). That's the public.

3% is Greek banks. So the public will eat that loss, if they default.

The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.

1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.

60%, is the Eurozone...... Whose that? Tax payers.

So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults? Tax payers. Not the banks. Not the wealthy. Not the rich. Not "cartels". Not the 'multi-national corporations'.

It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU.... the pensioners and Unions. That's who is screwed.

You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks. You have blown off your own foot.

Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.

When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.

The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head. Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.

Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism

That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.

 

[sealybobo]

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

I really hate posting things more than once.

Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.

Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.

But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.

And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.

It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."

Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.

Show me one small business that was ever too big to fail. The bankers here in America lost and they should have taken their lumps but instead they had us bail them out in fact they had us give them a loan they drafted that we would have never given them had we had a choice. Funny you want us to play by the rules and greeks to play by the rules but not the bankers

 

[sealybobo]

When we got robbed by

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

LOL

Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.

And told the banks to stick it? The banks? LOL

Dude the banks are fine. Greece is who is screwed.

Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes

The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss. The IMF almost never takes a loss.

18% is bonds. That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions). That's the public.

3% is Greek banks. So the public will eat that loss, if they default.

The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.

1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.

60%, is the Eurozone...... Whose that? Tax payers.

So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults? Tax payers. Not the banks. Not the wealthy. Not the rich. Not "cartels". Not the 'multi-national corporations'.

It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU.... the pensioners and Unions. That's who is screwed.

You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks. You have blown off your own foot.

Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.

When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.

The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head. Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.

Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism

That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.

Bush and the capitalist Republicans deregulated Wall Street we all know that deregulated the mortgage industry we all know that send jobs overseas Dave corporations tax rates in the Rich tax rates yes what you're saying is all true but there's so much more to it so much more that led to our downfall

 

[IsaacNewton]

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

Remember the debt ceiling hostage and they scared us into thinking if we didn't give them what they wanted the economy would collapse? Same thing they're doing in Greece right now. Remember Detroit went bankrupt? It was a test case for the rich and powerful to see if they could get away with doing it Detroit next Hartford or your any day American city could be next. Why? How? Because they have already gotten away with it and will again. Most people don't even realize the 2007 TARP bailout was a bank robbery nothing more or less

Total investment by TARP 426 billion, total paid back 441 billion.

The tax payers made money on the bailout.

First off, that's not true. There was tons of money, hidden in the books, that was not counted as part of TARP.

But even if it was true... that's exactly what the banks want you focus on. Maybe.... MAYBE... this time we come out ahead. Then the next time the banks make billions in bad bets, they'll say "well last time you made money.... so bail us out even more this time!" Playing right into their hands. Like they have their hand up your butt, making you talk.

Oh make no mistake, there should have been laws passed immediately that the entire executive board at any company that does these types of things in the future will be facing a minimum of 10 years in jail. And fined 75% of their net worth. And companies like AIG and other large entities should be broken apart like Bell Telephone was. No argument here.

China's stock market has tanked and lost 3 trillion dollars in the still ongoing crash. China told all the CEO's of the largest companies that they can't sell any of their stock for the next six months.

In the U.S. these types of rules are across the board opposed by the Republicans. And that is the problem.

 

[Steinlight]

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

I really hate posting things more than once.

Comparing a country to 'some guy' is a red herring argument. There is no comparison. It may appear that way, it may sound good to say it, but it isn't. Nations and their interactions with each other are far far more complicated.

Greece has to come up with a plan and rather quickly and they will. When you have little choice you have little choice. And they are in for very tough times no matter which way the wind blows.

But what they did was, in the long run, a good thing. The large western banks have been engaged in predatory lending and banking practices since Bush took office. That is why the economy crashed.

And that is why Russia, China, Brazil and some other countries are meeting to establish an alternative international bank. You screw people enough times and threaten them and they will react.

It was never just some easy, "well you borrow $5 and yada yada..."

Woo ... what a load of self-reinforcing poop and yeah, if you borrow and sign on the dotted line in exchange for someone else's money, you need to live up to your end of the bargain. The fact that you recognize that Greece was always going to have to "come up with a plan" that would free up new loans makes you just as dim and pompous as Tsipras and Varoufakis and the chorus of A-holes screaming "Oxi! Oxi!"
Tsipras could have saved Greece a lot of economic damage by agreeing to the creditor's terms weeks ago but was having too much fun posing for pix, wagging his finger at smarter people (with far more integrity) and jetting around Europe on the public dime.
As "trustworthy" as Greece and Tsipras have proven themselves to be, this is one investor who won't anytime soon be parking any cash there.

I know very smart rich people who live in Switzerland and argue with their Greek relatives.

I'll tell you what. They are starting to see Greece's points. Then I point out how here in America when the banks collapsed what a stupid bad deal we gave them.

They basically caused the collapse then demanded we take cuts while cutting their taxes.

The rich are shifting the tax burden more on us and middle class Republicans are to blame.

We should have said oxi.

Lower taxes had zero to do with the financial crisis in the US. This is absurd. There is no way you could reasonably connect the two.

If Greece actually practiced austerity a couple years ago, and actually cut their spending(which they haven't) when the financial crisis began, they would have never gotten to this point. Latvia followed the austerity program and is incredibly successful by comparison.

 

[Bleipriester]

When we got robbed by

Greece voted down the knife that international banks had to their throat.

The Greeks are looking at tough times no matter how they voted, so the birthplace of Democracy kicked the fascist international banks in the face and they've said in one loud voice you aren't going to turn us into slaves.
Now those very banks will be FORCED to negotiate a more equitable settlement and payment package because they have no choice

For Europe to even put the oldest democracy in such jeopardy, while insane entities like Isis watch, is beyond unforgivable. You can't squeeze blood from an orange. No matter what, the various financial institutions HAVE to work out a deal with the Greeks.

I applaud the Greeks for standing their ground. They will climb out of this financial disaster, like America has had to climb out of the Bush/Republican financial disaster handed to it in 2008, and come out whole.

What they did today was give notice that you 'don't f#$k with democracy'.

LOL

Greece just blew themselves up, and you think it's a victory.

And told the banks to stick it? The banks? LOL

Dude the banks are fine. Greece is who is screwed.

Eurozone Debt Showdown Looms As Populists Surge To Power In Greek Elections - Forbes

The IMF and the ECB, have legal guarantees, that they will not take a loss. The IMF almost never takes a loss.

18% is bonds. That's retirement funds, and pension funds (unions). That's the public.

3% is Greek banks. So the public will eat that loss, if they default.

The Bank of Greece, is the tax payers.

1%... just ONE PERCENT, is foriegn banks.

60%, is the Eurozone...... Whose that? Tax payers.

So who do you think is going to get screwed if Greece defaults? Tax payers. Not the banks. Not the wealthy. Not the rich. Not "cartels". Not the 'multi-national corporations'.

It's going to be the Greek public.... the tax payers of the EU.... the pensioners and Unions. That's who is screwed.

You haven't done diddle jack squat to the banks. You have blown off your own foot.

Whatever chance Greece had of rebuilding their economy, was just flushed down the drain.

When they get kicked out of the EU Zone, no one will buy their goods, because there will be tariffs on them now, and custom duties, and all the jobs they have left, will vanish.

The left-wing always pulls out the biggest sword, swings it as hard as it can, only to slice off their own head. Greece is the latest victim of socialist suicide.

Same with the American bank bailout. We got robbed. Everyone knows that was not a good deal but the bankers told us if we didn't we'd be doomed. you my friend are a fool

No, actually I'm not the fool. Not at all. I was completely against the bailouts from the very start. More importantly, I was against the policy that promoted sub-prime loans to begin with.

We didn't get robbed.

If I come to your home, and tell you "You have to give me $8 Million dollars, or..... your world will end somehow"....

and you go.... "DUR! Sure Sparky! Here you go!"

Did I "rob" you? Or were you dumber than forest gump, and voluntarily gave me the money?

Hint.... Gump.

We didn't get robbed. Government engaged in Socialism, and purchased bad assets for way over market price, by choice.

Governments can't get "robbed". You show me the time armed bandits, rush the congressional hall, and force politicians to write, sign, and pass legislation giving them the Federal Mint, and then.... ok government got robbed.

Greece certainly isn't getting "robbed". They could make the choice to spend less money than they collect in taxes... >TODAY< and walk away from the EU, without a loan, and there nothing the EU, ECB, or IMF could do about it.

They are making a choice. They WANT to borrow more money. Therefore they MUST follow the rules required to get those loans.

That's how life works. You want to borrow money from me? I'll loan it to you, but you gotta sign over title of your car as pledge for the money. "Well I don't want to do that!" .... ok.... then you don't get the money. "BUT I WANT YOUR MONEY!".... then you have to follow my rules..... "YOU ARE ROBBING ME!" no, you are making a choice.

That's all there is to it.

When we got robbed by the banks that wasn't socialism that was capitalism gone wrong. Unregulated free market capitalism

That's not true. Capitalism had nothing to do with the fact that the Federal Reserve created a subprime bubble that eventually burst. The 08 crisis is one of the many examples of the failure of central economic planning. Former Fed Chair Greenspan thought he could get out of the Dot.Com bubble by creating a housing bubble. Artificially low interest rates created subprime loans that would have not existed in a free market, and this bad debt was spread throughout the economy, leading to the crash. It wasn't a lack of regulation, but state intervention, that caused the economic downturn.

Yeah, blame it on the state when the banksters risk our economic security worldwide. The state did not stop them from doing so, so blame it. Now, you get the auto bubble, nobody learned anything and all will blame those for the auto bubble they always blame. Lobbyism missing reality. Idiocy continues. You cannot smoke but put down the whole country instead! That should make the people angry but as soon as the gov´t has pulled the cigarettes out of their faces they start to talk of the "free market" that should be allowed to destroy itself as consequence of the free market. Time to turn one´s back to that craze, there are other things in the world that really deserve attention.