Greatest of all time: Position by Position

[Oddball]

My pitchers:

Warren Spahn
Dizzy Dean
Cy Young
Satchel Paige
Nolan Ryan

I'm OK with every pitcher except for Ryan. Ryan was a statistical freak. He was barely over .500 has a pitcher, had two twenty game seasons (and lost 16 games in those seasons) and never won the Cy Young.

He also played for some godawful Angels and Astros teams, who gave him next to zero run support.

Where are his stats viz. ERA, K, BB, K/BB??

 

[Truthspeaker]

Gibson wasn't given a chance.

Which the entire point.

People tend to give far to much credit to players who were denied playing in the big leagues.

He probaly would have been a star player, but best ever?

We will never no, its an insult to the guys who played in the majors to say someone who didn't play in them would have topped them.

Also, barnstorming is NOT a valid means to compare, the ML players are on recond in their later years saying they always took it easy in such things since it was designed to highlight locals.

If you are going to include any kind of baseball, you might as well include Sadaharu Oh, who hit more HR then anybody, including Bonds.

Plus Sadaharu Oh in '66 '68 and '74 played a total of 54 games versus major league pitching in the Giants, Yankees and Dodgers exclusively. His stats?

182 ABs, 19 HR's(9.59 ab/hr), .352 avg, 64 hits, 11 doubles, 46 rbi (3.96 ab/rbi), 52 walks!(meaning they feared his ass), .700 slg%,

It's time to put the myth to bed that negro leaguers and japanese leaguers were not major league quality. That's why Japan keeps kicking our ass in the WBC!

 

[Truthspeaker]

Dude, I posted the best years of each players career and even took into consideration the war years lost to Williams. did you see that? No doubt Williams was probably a better guy but Williams came back and never missed a step. He continued to get better for some time after the war. His best still doesn't compare to Bond's best. Plus Williams never set any records, career or single season. Though his most impressive stat to me was striking out just 21 times the year he hit .406

How many triple crowns did juice boy earn?

Is that all you got? Why didn't williams have more than 1 40 homer season? He MIGHT have had his 2nd and 3rd during the war years but he had 21 other seasons to do it and he didn't. That's a pretty weak argument.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Ted Williams is the greatest left handed hitter of all time.

Bonds cannot shine his shoes, Bonds is a massive cheat who's claim to fame is a lot of HR and a mishapen head, as opposed to Ted who mearly had his frozen.

numbers don't lie and your bias for old Ted is inexcusable. He didn't dominate his era like Bonds dominated his.
Numbers don't

 

[Truthspeaker]

Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.

Numbers don't lie. Ted is a step below Bonds. The only thing Ted has on him is batting average. It stops there. You can't even say that he drove in more runs(he did) because he consistently would get about 150-200 more at bats than Bond's. This one is not close. Don't let your dislike of him cloud your judgment. I don't like him either, but don't be a fool.

Perhaps, but then, Ted wasn't slamming "juice" either. That would make any argument you have irrelevant because we don't know two things: how Bonds would do without Dianabol, and how Williams would do with it.

My vote is that a known 'roid freak is automatically disqualified because you're comparing him to people who had to get by on their OWN talent, not the chemist's.

Anyone who knows baseball in the remotest knows that Barry had the talent anyway. He was keeping up with the rest of the league. Stop villainizing him for something everyone was doing. He was an asshole, but he was better than all the rest. Get over your personal dislike for him and realize that the numbers don't

Ted Williams played in a homerdome all his career. If Bonds' distances were affected by the juice, the pitchers parks at AT&T and Candlestick as well as old three rivers, made up the distance gap. The fact is Bonds swung at HIS pitches. Steroid didn't help him hit the fat part of the bat. His homers were so far over the fence that if you take the extra distance off(10 feet at the most) he still breaks Aaron's record.

Add to the fact that the best pitchers in the game were juicers too and he raked everybody.

 

[Oddball]

Dude, I posted the best years of each players career and even took into consideration the war years lost to Williams. did you see that? No doubt Williams was probably a better guy but Williams came back and never missed a step. He continued to get better for some time after the war. His best still doesn't compare to Bond's best. Plus Williams never set any records, career or single season. Though his most impressive stat to me was striking out just 21 times the year he hit .406

How many triple crowns did juice boy earn?

Is that all you got? Why didn't williams have more than 1 40 homer season? He MIGHT have had his 2nd and 3rd during the war years but he had 21 other seasons to do it and he didn't. That's a pretty weak argument.

Williams didn't cheat...Bonds did.

 

[rightwinger]

My pitchers:

Warren Spahn
Dizzy Dean
Cy Young
Satchel Paige
Nolan Ryan

I'm OK with every pitcher except for Ryan. Ryan was a statistical freak. He was barely over .500 has a pitcher, had two twenty game seasons (and lost 16 games in those seasons) and never won the Cy Young.

He also played for some godawful Angels and Astros teams, who gave him next to zero run support.

Where are his stats viz. ERA, K, BB, K/BB??

Ryan was his own worst enemy during those years. His walks per nine innings contributed to his losses. Walter Johnson played for the Washington Senators, Steve Carlton won 27 games for a last place Phillies team.

Ryan never had a single season in 20+ years in the majors where he was the best Pitcher in baseball. He was a killer strikeout pitcher but strikeouts count the same as ground balls. Give me Greg Maddox any day. As a strikeout pitcher I'd take Randy Johnson over Ryan.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Bonds is a fucking joke. It's not enough they juiced up the ball and made pitchers practically throw underhand, he had to juice himself up.

Fuck him. His "records" don't mean crap

Probably one of the funniest pictures I've ever seen.

Now I'm not the biggest Bond's fan. I don't want to turn this into a steroid thread either, I picked Bonds in my outfield for my reasons. Who is your ultimate 9?

 

[Truthspeaker]

My pitchers:

Warren Spahn
Dizzy Dean
Cy Young
Satchel Paige
Nolan Ryan

great rotation, how about your 9?

 

[Truthspeaker]

1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Nellie Fox
3B: Brooks Robinson
SS: Derek Jeter
Outfield: Mays, Ruth, Williams, Mantle, DiMaggio, Cobb and Dave Parker for defense (impossible to pick only 3)
Catcher: Johnny Bench

Pitchers.

Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Nolan Ryan
Pedro Martinez

Relief: Mariano Rivera

Great team, but stop being such a communist! You have to snub 4 of those outfielders. Have some balls!

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Bonds is a fucking joke. It's not enough they juiced up the ball and made pitchers practically throw underhand, he had to juice himself up.

Fuck him. His "records" don't mean crap

Probably one of the funniest pictures I've ever seen.

Now I'm not the biggest Bond's fan. I don't want to turn this into a steroid thread either, I picked Bonds in my outfield for my reasons. Who is your ultimate 9?

1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Nellie Fox
3B: Brooks Robinson
SS: Derek Jeter

Outfield: Mays, Ruth, Williams

Catcher: Johnny Bench

Pitchers.

Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Nolan Ryan
Pedro Martinez

Relief: Mariano Rivera

 

[Truthspeaker]

My pitchers:

Warren Spahn
Dizzy Dean
Cy Young
Satchel Paige
Nolan Ryan

I'm OK with every pitcher except for Ryan. Ryan was a statistical freak. He was barely over .500 has a pitcher, had two twenty game seasons (and lost 16 games in those seasons) and never won the Cy Young.

You should be slapped Wins are one of the worst ways to judge the quality of a pitcher. I'll give you another example of how numbers don't .


"Pitchers better than Nolan Ryan" career era:3.19(most of his years in the AL), best year 1.69(NL). Best AL year 2.28. career k's 5714(record), best year 383(AL). Career avg against .204, best year 1.71(AL), 222 complete games, 61 shutouts. best year, 20 cg, 9sho(AL).
Also the only man ever to hit 104 on the radar gun.

Let's compare them to Ryan shall we?:

Bob Gibson: Probably the closest competition to Ryan in your group.

2.92 career era in NL(not better than Ryan's in AL) best year 1.12(equal to Ryan's 1.69 because his mound was a foot higher.) K's best season was 270, over 100 less than Ryan's best. Career obviously goes to Ryan. 255 career cg's, 56. comparable, but inferior to Ryan especially since he's in the NL. Career avg against .226. versus NL teams, best year .184. Not close to Ryan.

Tom Seaver- Nice pitcher. Inferior to Ryan. The only thing close is his era. A few entirely National League points lower. checking the stats would be a waste of time. You can do it if you want to disprove yourself.

Juan Marichal- I'm a Giants fan so I love Juan. But he's no Ryan. The stats aren't even close. Almost a carbon copy of Seaver's comparison.

Steve Carlton: love this guy, but he's no Ryan either. Career Era 3.27, best era 1.97, career K's 2nd to Ryan, best year, 310, 63 short of Ryans best. Career avg against, .240, best year was .206, a far cry from Ryan. 254 cg's 55 shutouts, inferior to Ryan.

Greg Maddox: Interesting, but this is not close
Maddux career era 3.16(inferior because of the NL) best season a worthy 1.56 but only barely better than Ryan's . Half the cg's and shutouts, batters hit a surprising .250 off him in his career. Best season avg against was .197. All against the inferior NL offense

Randy Johnson. Also interesting.
Career era 3.29, best year 2.28, 4869 career k's(still 900 short of the Express), best year an impressive 372(versus NL hitters)best AL year(308). Both inferior to the train. less than half the cg's and shutouts. career avg against .221, best year, an AL .191.

Sandy Koufax: This should be interesting. In fact I would venture to say he's closer than Gibson.

Probably the only comparable era comparison 2.76 in the National League. I'll say even. I'll say their cg's and shutouts are comparable as well even though Sandy's number total half of Ryans. He pitched half as long as Ryan. career average against is 2.05 in the NL. Almost as impressive as Ryans 2.04. His best year the NL hit just .179 against him. 10 points higher than Ryan's. That same year he had 1 less strikeout than Ryan's career best. But again Ryan's best was in the AL and still higher. 4 no hitters to Ryan's 7.(plus he had a higher mound like Gibson)

Pedro Martinez- Pedro has a clear lead in the era dept. career 2.91, best year 1.74(AL), But this needs to be taken with a grain of salt because Pedro doesn't really go past the 7th inning much, even in his prime, so he likely would have given up a few more runs if he pitched as deep into games as Ryan, so to me I'd still take Ryan for his durability and intimidation factor. Next category, over 2500 fewer career k's, his best year 313(AL). Career batting avg against .214. best year a slightly better 1.67.
You can make an argument for Pedro, but he never threw a no hitter and Ryan threw 7.
Advantage Ryan

Old School Pitchers better than Ryan
Christy Mathewson- I barely agree
Walter Johnson-I ever so barely agree.
Grover Alexander- Disagree.

 

[Truthspeaker]

How many triple crowns did juice boy earn?

Is that all you got? Why didn't williams have more than 1 40 homer season? He MIGHT have had his 2nd and 3rd during the war years but he had 21 other seasons to do it and he didn't. That's a pretty weak argument.

Williams didn't cheat...Bonds did.

Whatever, if everyone's doing it, it's a level playing field. Bonds was better against his peers than Williams was against his.

 

[Fatality]

pitcher
don drysdale
sandy kofax
bob gibson
nolan ryan


1st
steve garvey
maybe albert puljols, still active and putting up numbers
would have to look at players, clark was great but streaky


2nd
steve sax
ryn sandberg

 

[Fatality]

My pitchers:

Warren Spahn
Dizzy Dean
Cy Young
Satchel Paige
Nolan Ryan

I'm OK with every pitcher except for Ryan. Ryan was a statistical freak. He was barely over .500 has a pitcher, had two twenty game seasons (and lost 16 games in those seasons) and never won the Cy Young.

He also played for some godawful Angels and Astros teams, who gave him next to zero run support.

Where are his stats viz. ERA, K, BB, K/BB??

ryan was a dominate force and had longevity dominating up to his retirement

 

[Fatality]

Is that all you got? Why didn't williams have more than 1 40 homer season? He MIGHT have had his 2nd and 3rd during the war years but he had 21 other seasons to do it and he didn't. That's a pretty weak argument.

Williams didn't cheat...Bonds did.

Whatever, if everyone's doing it, it's a level playing field. Bonds was better against his peers than Williams was against his.

the dope didnt give bonds his talent, he was a solid player before the dope. the drugs turned warning track fly balls into home runs and his towering shots became bay bound and wet. he should have an asterix next to his name, but again the drugs didnt give him his talent, just made an already talented guy a bit stronger.

 

[Gunny]

Numbers don't lie. Ted is a step below Bonds. The only thing Ted has on him is batting average. It stops there. You can't even say that he drove in more runs(he did) because he consistently would get about 150-200 more at bats than Bond's. This one is not close. Don't let your dislike of him cloud your judgment. I don't like him either, but don't be a fool.

Perhaps, but then, Ted wasn't slamming "juice" either. That would make any argument you have irrelevant because we don't know two things: how Bonds would do without Dianabol, and how Williams would do with it.

My vote is that a known 'roid freak is automatically disqualified because you're comparing him to people who had to get by on their OWN talent, not the chemist's.

Anyone who knows baseball in the remotest knows that Barry had the talent anyway. He was keeping up with the rest of the league. Stop villainizing him for something everyone was doing. He was an asshole, but he was better than all the rest. Get over your personal dislike for him and realize that the numbers don't

Ted Williams played in a homerdome all his career. If Bonds' distances were affected by the juice, the pitchers parks at AT&T and Candlestick as well as old three rivers, made up the distance gap. The fact is Bonds swung at HIS pitches. Steroid didn't help him hit the fat part of the bat. His homers were so far over the fence that if you take the extra distance off(10 feet at the most) he still breaks Aaron's record.

Add to the fact that the best pitchers in the game were juicers too and he raked everybody.

Look, junior, play your little "anyone who knows baseball in the remotest" crap on someone else. While you have spent your life running your flap and flattening your ass on a sofa, I've been out playing them.

You are full of shit, and projecting. I didn't say steroids had a damned thing to do with his hitting technique, now did I? Hint: This is where you shake your headfrom side to side and say, "Why no, Gunny, you didn't."

The fact is, the steroids probably put more those homeruns over the fence than skill since no matter how much skill you have, it cannot replace the power required and steroids equal power. Too simple, huh?

Please name which pitchers were "juicers" and provide factual data to support your claim. I am aware of only one that used them, and he was using them under direction of a physician for rehab. Guess what you get if you contract bronchitis? You guess it ... steroids.

Steroids have a legitimate, medical purpose. Not to be confused with athletes that use them to cheat.

Second, you can't compare players of different eras because they don't play the same game. The 1970 Dallas Cowboys or 1975 Pittsburgh Steelers would put any team on th efield today collectively into the hospital. Game over. Babe Ruth and Lou Gherig played without webbing in their gloves. They had to have LOTS more skill than these people now who have replaced skill with webbing.

Bonds is a cheater. He is not playing to best of HIS ability. He's using chemicals to give him an edge over those that don't.

Your whole argument here is full of shit. Bonds should be getting the treatment Pete Rose has gotten. He's every bit as much if not more a cheater.

 

[Gunny]

How many triple crowns did juice boy earn?

Is that all you got? Why didn't williams have more than 1 40 homer season? He MIGHT have had his 2nd and 3rd during the war years but he had 21 other seasons to do it and he didn't. That's a pretty weak argument.

Williams didn't cheat...Bonds did.

That just about covers it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Perhaps, but then, Ted wasn't slamming "juice" either. That would make any argument you have irrelevant because we don't know two things: how Bonds would do without Dianabol, and how Williams would do with it.

My vote is that a known 'roid freak is automatically disqualified because you're comparing him to people who had to get by on their OWN talent, not the chemist's.

Anyone who knows baseball in the remotest knows that Barry had the talent anyway. He was keeping up with the rest of the league. Stop villainizing him for something everyone was doing. He was an asshole, but he was better than all the rest. Get over your personal dislike for him and realize that the numbers don't

Ted Williams played in a homerdome all his career. If Bonds' distances were affected by the juice, the pitchers parks at AT&T and Candlestick as well as old three rivers, made up the distance gap. The fact is Bonds swung at HIS pitches. Steroids didn't help him hit the fat part of the bat. His homers were so far over the fence that if you take the extra distance off(10 feet at the most) he still breaks Aaron's record.

Add to the fact that the best pitchers in the game were juicers too and he raked everybody.

Look, junior, play your little "anyone who knows baseball in the remotest" crap on someone else. While you have spent your life running your flap and flattening your ass on a sofa, I've been out playing them.

Do I really look fat? This is a current picture of myself. I've been playing sports, specifically hardball for the last 25 years. I currently manage and play for the East Bay Lumberjacks Semi Pro Team in California East Bay Lumberjacks. I had my first down year recovering from surgery but still led the team in homers and RBI. I don't have a fat ass.

Y

ou are full of shit, and projecting. I didn't say steroids had a damned thing to do with his hitting technique, now did I?

Of course you did. You said he cheated by using steroids. Obviously you think he wouldn't have hit the home runs without them. I'm not dumb.
You're really surprising me since you've always seemed to have common sense in all the rest of your posts. I guess nobody's perfect.

Hint: This is where you shake your headfrom side to side and say, "Why no, Gunny, you didn't."

You made it clear in no uncertain terms plus you are about to say it again that Bond's wasn't going to hit the home runs without the steroids. You obviously think his hitting technique is not good enough on it's own to hit the homers.

The fact is, the steroids probably put more those homeruns over the fence than skill since no matter how much skill you have, it cannot replace the power required and steroids equal power. Too simple, huh?

See I told you you were about to say it. Steroids do not equal power. A little later I am going to provide the mitchell report with all the names on it. You'll notice a lot o bottom of the barrel guys that didn't get better because of the roids. Since I'm also a certified personal trainer, I know a thing or two about which steroids do what to your body. The ones used by Bonds were primarily responsible for keeping him healthier and therefore younger, than he would have been. They helped him recover from injuries much faster and allowed him to workout in the gym longer without fatigue. So he still had to put the time into the gym. It's not the steroids that get you stronger, it's the extra time in the gym it allows you. It repairs your muscles faster. If you claim to know about playing ball so much, then you know that hitting homers is ALL about technique and not as much about physical strength.

Please name which pitchers were "juicers" and provide factual data to support your claim.

I'm going out to dinner with my family but everyone here knows I'll be back on here with the mitchell report and the names of all the people exposed. I'm very surprised you haven't heard all the positive tests.

Second, you can't compare players of different eras because they don't play the same game. The 1970 Dallas Cowboys or 1975 Pittsburgh Steelers would put any team on th efield today collectively into the hospital.

If any of those teams played today's top college team, they would be sent to the ER every last freakin one of them. All of them were way too small. That's the dumbest thing I've EVER heard.

Game over.

You better believe it. And lives over for all the remaining parapalegic 70's players

Babe Ruth and Lou Gherig played without webbing in their gloves. They had to have LOTS more skill than these people now who have replaced skill with webbing.

Humans are smart, the guys today would pick it up just the same if they had to learn that way too.

Bonds is a cheater.

blame the league, not bonds. The whole league was and is corrupt.

He is not playing to best of HIS ability. He's using chemicals to give him an edge over those that don't.

More like keeping up with what everyone else was doing. get over the fact that baseball players are trying to keep a multi million dollar job by keeping up with everyone else getting a competitive edge. You'd do it too, if not, you wouldn't be in the league.

Y

our whole argument here is full of shit. Bonds should be getting the treatment Pete Rose has gotten. He's every bit as much if not more a cheater.

numbers don't lie, context doesn't lie. Pete Rose was a gambler, not a cheating baseball player.

 

[rightwinger]

My pitchers:

Warren Spahn
Dizzy Dean
Cy Young
Satchel Paige
Nolan Ryan

I'm OK with every pitcher except for Ryan. Ryan was a statistical freak. He was barely over .500 has a pitcher, had two twenty game seasons (and lost 16 games in those seasons) and never won the Cy Young.

You should be slapped Wins are one of the worst ways to judge the quality of a pitcher. I'll give you another example of how numbers don't .


"Pitchers better than Nolan Ryan" career era:3.19(most of his years in the AL), best year 1.69(NL). Best AL year 2.28. career k's 5714(record), best year 383(AL). Career avg against .204, best year 1.71(AL), 222 complete games, 61 shutouts. best year, 20 cg, 9sho(AL).
Also the only man ever to hit 104 on the radar gun.

Let's compare them to Ryan shall we?:

Bob Gibson: Probably the closest competition to Ryan in your group.

2.92 career era in NL(not better than Ryan's in AL) best year 1.12(equal to Ryan's 1.69 because his mound was a foot higher.) K's best season was 270, over 100 less than Ryan's best. Career obviously goes to Ryan. 255 career cg's, 56. comparable, but inferior to Ryan especially since he's in the NL. Career avg against .226. versus NL teams, best year .184. Not close to Ryan.

Tom Seaver- Nice pitcher. Inferior to Ryan. The only thing close is his era. A few entirely National League points lower. checking the stats would be a waste of time. You can do it if you want to disprove yourself.

Juan Marichal- I'm a Giants fan so I love Juan. But he's no Ryan. The stats aren't even close. Almost a carbon copy of Seaver's comparison.

Steve Carlton: love this guy, but he's no Ryan either. Career Era 3.27, best era 1.97, career K's 2nd to Ryan, best year, 310, 63 short of Ryans best. Career avg against, .240, best year was .206, a far cry from Ryan. 254 cg's 55 shutouts, inferior to Ryan.

Greg Maddox: Interesting, but this is not close
Maddux career era 3.16(inferior because of the NL) best season a worthy 1.56 but only barely better than Ryan's . Half the cg's and shutouts, batters hit a surprising .250 off him in his career. Best season avg against was .197. All against the inferior NL offense

Randy Johnson. Also interesting.
Career era 3.29, best year 2.28, 4869 career k's(still 900 short of the Express), best year an impressive 372(versus NL hitters)best AL year(308). Both inferior to the train. less than half the cg's and shutouts. career avg against .221, best year, an AL .191.

Sandy Koufax: This should be interesting. In fact I would venture to say he's closer than Gibson.

Probably the only comparable era comparison 2.76 in the National League. I'll say even. I'll say their cg's and shutouts are comparable as well even though Sandy's number total half of Ryans. He pitched half as long as Ryan. career average against is 2.05 in the NL. Almost as impressive as Ryans 2.04. His best year the NL hit just .179 against him. 10 points higher than Ryan's. That same year he had 1 less strikeout than Ryan's career best. But again Ryan's best was in the AL and still higher. 4 no hitters to Ryan's 7.(plus he had a higher mound like Gibson)

Pedro Martinez- Pedro has a clear lead in the era dept. career 2.91, best year 1.74(AL), But this needs to be taken with a grain of salt because Pedro doesn't really go past the 7th inning much, even in his prime, so he likely would have given up a few more runs if he pitched as deep into games as Ryan, so to me I'd still take Ryan for his durability and intimidation factor. Next category, over 2500 fewer career k's, his best year 313(AL). Career batting avg against .214. best year a slightly better 1.67.
You can make an argument for Pedro, but he never threw a no hitter and Ryan threw 7.
Advantage Ryan

Old School Pitchers better than Ryan
Christy Mathewson- I barely agree
Walter Johnson-I ever so barely agree.
Grover Alexander- Disagree.

Great talking baseball with you and you do your homework.

One question....did you see Nolan Ryan pitch in his prime? He was a better pitcher at the end of his career than in his prime years. That is why I list Randy Johnsin higher. Johnson eventually found the plate Ryan struggled most of his career.
In his prime years in the 70s Ryan killed himself with walks. Teams feared Ryan but they still thought they could beat him. Being an "unlucky" pitcher for 27 years just doesn't happen. Sooner or later you put up a killer season...Ryan never did
Look at Ryan in his prime and ask which contemporaries would not be traded even up for Ryan. Seaver- never, Gibson- never, Carlton- never, Palmer- maybe, Hunter- maybe

Ryan looks good over a 27 yr career, even if his wins suck
Look at his five best years
1981 11-5 1.69 ERA (not a full season)
1972 19-16 2.28 ERA
1973 21-16 2.87 ERA
1974 22-16 2.89 ERA
1977 19-16 2.77 ERA

Each of the pitchers I listed has a superior "Best 5"

Since you are a Giants fan, lets look at Juan Marichal who I also saw pitch

1969 21- 11 2.10 ERA
1965 22-13 2.13 ERA
1966 25-6 2.23 ERA
1963 25-8 2.41 ERA
1968 26-9 2.43 ERA

I wouldn't take a single one of Nolan Ryans top 5 years over Juan Marichals. I saw both pitch. Marichal was a bull and would close out the win. Ryan would find a way to lose