GOP Healthcare Blunder

[nodoginnafight]

squirm away you pompous prick

 

[Oddball]

Fuck off, you disingenuous dickweed.

 

[MarcATL]

I guess this is more a question of syntax.

When you say the "final Bill", are you asking what is the final Health care package is?

Or are you making reference to each individual bill that makes up the final Health Care package?

If it is the fomer, no one knows what that is until after all the bills have been voted on.

If you are referring to the latter, then yes, each individual bill is pretty much decided, except in the cases where new bills are introduced and not considered. The new bills, unless they are a compromise and agreed upon before hand, are most likely to be voted down.

I guess this is a matter of spin and bullshit.

There is in fact no bill.

Spin is an attempt to focus an audience on only one perspective that favors a position.

If we take in several perspectives, then there is no such thing as a final bill except in cases if there is only one bill, with language intact and no add-ons during the process of passing the bill, is presented.


Then if we consider the fact that language can be changed , and ammendments to the bill can be introduced in the process, then there is never a final bill until after a bill is voted on.


Thus Congress never considers a final Bill until after the process of voting a Bill into(or not into) law has been settled.


When we consider this perspective, there is not a problem in the fact that there exist no Final Bill regarding Heatlh care Reform/UHC or whatever you wish to call it.

That is, of course, we wish to follow this perspective to some form of formative understanding.

Stop it. You're damaging his brain with TRUTH and FACTS.

btw - if you don't know what's in the proposal and what is left to be negotiated and what funding mechanisms have been included - you just haven't been paying attention.

Again I am major impressed that YOU know when extremely few, if any, Senators or Congressmen have read it, none will attempt to explain any details in it, and at least some are honest enough to admit that nobody without a battery of lawyers to interpret it will be able to understand it. For the life of me I can't understand how anybody who loves America and loves freedom is comfortable with allowing government bureaucrats have free rein to interpret and manipulate an enormous piece of legislation like this that no reputable economist or legal scholar can endorse.

Not impressive at all - most senators and representatives have probably read a plethora of drafts, amendments and proposals that they have participated in including or rejecting. And they've talked a lot about all of them throughout the process.

Just because YOU may not have been paying attention, don't assume that NOBODY has. It's equally absurd to claim that "no reputable" economists nor legal scholars have endorsed the bill. Perhaps you just choose to withdraw YOUR opinion of what is reputable based on their agreement with you???? And you admit that you don't know anything about the bill - so why should your opinion of it be given any weight whatsoever.

If you know nothing about the bill (as you have stated) then what do you base your criticism upon? What some talking head TOLD you to think?

There are parts of this bill that I'm not happy about - but I'm not gonna try to pretend it's some big secret. I KNOW what I don't like that is on the table.

The TRUTH of the matter is, that people like him and his ilk do NOT care anything about TRUTH no FACTS. Simply blundering uber-partisanship and blind ideology.

 

[Oddball]

Whatever.

When did that POS get posted....Like 10 minutes ago?

So, until 10 minutes ago, there was no bill....Whoop-de-fucking-do.

Now those asswipes are going to vote on it, without knowing what the hell, besides for their shameless bribes, is in it.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

I disagree. The title of this thread should read "DNC Healthcare Blunder" instead. This is a terrible Socialist Nightmare the Democrats are forcing on the country and i believe it will be their ultimate undoing in future elections. Their Boondoggle actually increases costs for Healthcare overall. This post just sounds like an awful lot of wishful thinking to me. Hey just my opinion anyway.

 

[amrchaos]

Whatever.

When did that POS get posted....Like 10 minutes ago?

So, until 10 minutes ago, there was no bill....Whoop-de-fucking-do.

Now those asswipes are going to vote on it, without knowing what the hell, besides for their shameless bribes, is in it.

Actually, it is more constructive to focus on the issues that you dislike that are being posed than on the issue of whether there is a final Bill(or set of Bills, in this case) to consider.

For instance, the potential of diminishing/destroying the insurance market in the case of Health care reform is a concern.

The concept of government ordering citizens to purchase/buy insurance is another concern

The concept of government entering the insurance market as a competitor is another concern.

The possible connotation of Euthansia/Death panels(existance of which is really questionable) is of prime concern.

But the issue that there is no final Bill is not actually a concern but more of a complaint on how the legislature branch conducts Business.

The art of horse trading(or "bribing" for the right wingers), compromising and so forth is actually how bipartisanship is usually achieved.

There are legitimate things that Americans should be concerned about--but the process of how Congress goes about achieving a result is not one of them.

 

[WillowTree]

The GOP's big health care 'blunder' - THE WEEK

"The GOP messed up big-time: This healthcare bill is a "staggering achievement" by the Democrats — but "it never would have happened if the Republican Party had played its cards right," says Jonathan Chait at The New Republic. From the start Dems were "desperate" for a bipartisan bill. "A few GOP defectors could have lured a chunk of Democrats to sign something far more limited than what President Obama is going to sign." "

Yep! A staggering achievement. The Insurance Companies and Big Pharma would certainly agree. Now the American people will be forced to buy insurance from them or face a fine or face jail or both. No cheap drugs for Americans. Yep,, Americans have taken another one in the ass. And meanwhile 180 thousand of them will die waiting for this "staggering achievement" to begin!

 

[Foxfyre]

In order to believe the spin presented in the article, one would have to believe that the President and/or the Democrats in Congress give a tinkers dam about anybody other than themselves, their own interests, their own power, and their own personal wealth. I have no such belief.

If they did give a damn about really improving things and/or making things better for others, they would have subjected themselves to the legislation they are attempting to push onto the rest of us. And they would have done it above board, honorably, and in the full light because they were proud of it. They wouldn't be dodging and weaving and spinning and delaying implementation until after the next elections.

They truly do believe we are all ignorant, gullible, manageable kool-ade drinkers or else we have too short memories to blame them when the worst of this becomes obvious to all. I think I resent that about this more than anything else.

This is nothing but pure, unadulterated, partisan hogwash.

The minute one starts an argument like "well the other side doesn't care about anyone other than themselves" its guaranteed BS.

Okay Genius, perhaps you can explain then why they are doing this in the dark of night, on Christmas Eve when of course the entire world is focused on Washington and politics, and why it was necessary to do that when the bill won't even take effect until after the next elections? Why has so far not a single one of them given more than spin devoid of any specifics when questioned about specifics? And why are they ignoring rather than addressing the concern of the majority of Americans polled who now are opposed to what they do know of this legislation.

I am going out on a limb here, but with little fear of it being sawed off. I am guessing that if this was a Republican bill and they were operating in this manner, you would be squealing like a stuck pig in protest.

 

[Foxfyre]

btw - if you don't know what's in the proposal and what is left to be negotiated and what funding mechanisms have been included - you just haven't been paying attention.

Again I am major impressed that YOU know when extremely few, if any, Senators or Congressmen have read it, none will attempt to explain any details in it, and at least some are honest enough to admit that nobody without a battery of lawyers to interpret it will be able to understand it. For the life of me I can't understand how anybody who loves America and loves freedom is comfortable with allowing government bureaucrats have free rein to interpret and manipulate an enormous piece of legislation like this that no reputable economist or legal scholar can endorse.

Not impressive at all - most senators and representatives have probably read a plethora of drafts, amendments and proposals that they have participated in including or rejecting. And they've talked a lot about all of them throughout the process.

Just because YOU may not have been paying attention, don't assume that NOBODY has. It's equally absurd to claim that "no reputable" economists nor legal scholars have endorsed the bill. Perhaps you just choose to withdraw YOUR opinion of what is reputable based on their agreement with you???? And you admit that you don't know anything about the bill - so why should your opinion of it be given any weight whatsoever.

If you know nothing about the bill (as you have stated) then what do you base your criticism upon? What some talking head TOLD you to think?

There are parts of this bill that I'm not happy about - but I'm not gonna try to pretend it's some big secret. I KNOW what I don't like that is on the table.

I base my opinion on the analysis of those who HAVE read the bill and have no stake in the outcome other than the stake we all do as citizens. I didn't say that I know nothing about this bill. I am going to say that I probably know more about it than most of those voting on it know or will admit that they know. I don't claim to be as well informed as you claim to be though, and perhaps you could enlighten us on what wonderful magic you know this legislation will accomplish for America and Americans. Those reputable economists you are so unimpressed with would surely like to know since they haven't been able to identify anything like that in the legislation.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Whatever.

When did that POS get posted....Like 10 minutes ago?

So, until 10 minutes ago, there was no bill....Whoop-de-fucking-do.

Now those asswipes are going to vote on it, without knowing what the hell, besides for their shameless bribes, is in it.

Actually, it was posted Novemeber 19th.

Just keep digging yourself in deeper Einstein.

Just because YOU only woke up 10 minutes ago is no indication that our senators have been hibernating (intellectually) in the same way.

Okay Genius, perhaps you can explain then why they are doing this in the dark of night, on Christmas Eve

Again, the first draft was posted on Nov. 19th and the debate over the provisions and amendments have been very public. Just because YOU only recently got interested in no indication that this has been some sort of rush job. There is typically a sense of urgency to pass bills before the holiday recess and this is no problem especially on a bill that has been debated and so thouroughly publically vetted.

Again, I have some serious reservations about some aspects of this bill, but pretending that it has all been some super-secret rush job is just not my M.O.

 

[MarcATL]

In order to believe the spin presented in the article, one would have to believe that the President and/or the Democrats in Congress give a tinkers dam about anybody other than themselves, their own interests, their own power, and their own personal wealth. I have no such belief.

If they did give a damn about really improving things and/or making things better for others, they would have subjected themselves to the legislation they are attempting to push onto the rest of us. And they would have done it above board, honorably, and in the full light because they were proud of it. They wouldn't be dodging and weaving and spinning and delaying implementation until after the next elections.

They truly do believe we are all ignorant, gullible, manageable kool-ade drinkers or else we have too short memories to blame them when the worst of this becomes obvious to all. I think I resent that about this more than anything else.

This is nothing but pure, unadulterated, partisan hogwash.

The minute one starts an argument like "well the other side doesn't care about anyone other than themselves" its guaranteed BS.

Okay Genius, perhaps you can explain then why they are doing this in the dark of night, on Christmas Eve when of course the entire world is focused on Washington and politics, and why it was necessary to do that when the bill won't even take effect until after the next elections? Why has so far not a single one of them given more than spin devoid of any specifics when questioned about specifics? And why are they ignoring rather than addressing the concern of the majority of Americans polled who now are opposed to what they do know of this legislation.

I am going out on a limb here, but with little fear of it being sawed off. I am guessing that if this was a Republican bill and they were operating in this manner, you would be squealing like a stuck pig in protest.

If it doesn't get done this year. Its. Not. Going. To. Get. Done. Period.

About the hypothetical question you posed had it been a Republican bill. Does the last 8 years come to mind Mr. Hannity?

EVERYTHING that led the country here was rammed down America's throat...all wrapped up in the American flag with talks of patriotism and mixed with an abundance of fear (the color codes.)

Or were you asleep?

Americans were screaming for them to stop, in numbers that DWARFTED the biggest Tea Party yet, but no one listened. In fact, the same media thats kow-towing to this relatively miniscule amount of tea-bagging protesters, were openly mocking the protests during the last 8 years.

But you and your ilk continue to spew the BS that the media is librul.

*SMH*

C'mon man...get serious.

 

[asaratis]

I disagree. The title of this thread should read "DNC Healthcare Blunder" instead. This is a terrible Socialist Nightmare the Democrats are forcing on the country and i believe it will be their ultimate undoing in future elections. Their Boondoggle actually increases costs for Healthcare overall. This post just sounds like an awful lot of wishful thinking to me. Hey just my opinion anyway.

That's all that comes from the mouths of liberals these days...wishful thinking and well disguised lies. The eloquent orators have the floor. The Alpha Bitch has locked HR3400 in committee so the country cannot know what the Republicans tried to pass.

We are on our way down the drain.

As soon as possible, the liberals will give all illegal aliens the right to vote, thus sealing the door behind them as they step into the gilded chambers of the ruling class. Socialism and misery for the masses cannot be too far behind. We will pay for this shit forever.

 

[nodoginnafight]

"Sixty-four years have passed since November 1945 when Democratic President Harry S. Truman first asked Congress directly to pass a national health insurance. Republicans and special interests killed the proposal as they did two years later in 1947 when Truman proposed the measure again only to be shouted down by the folks who had something financially or politically to gain.

Truman’s were not the first discussions about health reform in the United States. The realization that health care is ultimately unsustainable in its present form goes back to a previous president, Republican Theodore Roosevelt."

http://www.examiner.com/x-5968-DC-P...nist--tactics-breed-special-health-care-deals

Yes, this has been happening WAAAAY tooooooo fast .......

 

[Foxfyre]

This is nothing but pure, unadulterated, partisan hogwash.

The minute one starts an argument like "well the other side doesn't care about anyone other than themselves" its guaranteed BS.

Okay Genius, perhaps you can explain then why they are doing this in the dark of night, on Christmas Eve when of course the entire world is focused on Washington and politics, and why it was necessary to do that when the bill won't even take effect until after the next elections? Why has so far not a single one of them given more than spin devoid of any specifics when questioned about specifics? And why are they ignoring rather than addressing the concern of the majority of Americans polled who now are opposed to what they do know of this legislation.

I am going out on a limb here, but with little fear of it being sawed off. I am guessing that if this was a Republican bill and they were operating in this manner, you would be squealing like a stuck pig in protest.

If it doesn't get done this year. Its. Not. Going. To. Get. Done. Period.

About the hypothetical question you posed had it been a Republican bill. Does the last 8 years come to mind Mr. Hannity?

EVERYTHING that led the country here was rammed down America's throat...all wrapped up in the American flag with talks of patriotism and mixed with an abundance of fear (the color codes.)

Or were you asleep?

Americans were screaming for them to stop, in numbers that DWARFTED the biggest Tea Party yet, but no one listened. In fact, the same media thats kow-towing to this relatively miniscule amount of tea-bagging protesters, were openly mocking the protests during the last 8 years.

But you and your ilk continue to spew the BS that the media is librul.

*SMH*

C'mon man...get serious.

Do you normally exaggerate so much to make a point? (I on occasion do exaggerate for effect, however, so will give you that one.)

But because things weren't done correctly before in your opinion, that is justification for doing them incorrectly now? We deserve to have stuff rammed down our throat now because it was rammed down our throat previously? What kind of logic is that?

You would rather them pass a really bad, destructive, too expensive bill that nobody wants rather than no bill because you think it has to be done now rather than take their time to do a good one? What kind of logic is that?

All this simply reinforces my opinion that it is not the best interests of the American people that is the concern here, but rather the personal agenda of those with the power to do it to us. And I hope with all my heart that we feel justified in throwing them all out of office at the earliest opportunity we have to do that.

 

[nodoginnafight]

It was in July that the first drafts of THIS piece of legislation were written. Three out of the five committees had passed bills before the first of August.
And the rest of the process has been stretched out and obstructed for about five months.

Again, pretending that this is being railroaded and rammed down people's throat is just absurd. The tact is so very predictable because it's the same old rubbish that has been trotted out so many times to obstruct legislation one opposes. But it's just not the reality of the situation. Oppose REAL problems - not make-believe ones.

 

[Foxfyre]

It was in July that the first drafts of THIS piece of legislation were written. Three out of the five committees had passed bills before the first of August.
And the rest of the process has been stretched out and obstructed for about five months.

Again, pretending that this is being railroaded and rammed down people's throat is just absurd. The tact is so very predictable because it's the same old rubbish that has been trotted out so many times to obstruct legislation one opposes. But it's just not the reality of the situation. Oppose REAL problems - not make-believe ones.

Then why are they so evasive? Why to a man or woman do the President and the Democrats duck every specific question being put to them, blow off those asking, or change the subject immediately? If they are so proud of this legislation, why is it being rammed through on Christmas Eve when most of the free world is otherwise occupied and before they let the members of Congress go face their constituents back home?

If this is such a good deal, why are so many--people who have no stake in the GOP and no dog in the fight to use your on screen monkier--opposed to this legislation?

Could it possibly be that those opposed to it have valid reasons to oppose it while those defending it have nothing with which they can honestly defend it?

 

[nodoginnafight]

Then why are they so evasive?

I haven't seen ANYTHING that I would characterize as evasion. I have actually seen a lot of MISINFORMATION (to be charitable) coming from the GOP side of the aisle. Do they not have anything legitimate elements of the bill to attack? Why do they have to make up crap likle death panels and secrecy and rush job crap that is obviously not true.

If they had anything of substance other than their own determination to hand "Obama his Waterloo" (- DeMint) then I can only assume that they would produce it. Instead I get a steady barage of complaints like those you've expressed here which are so easily dismissed as pure fantasy.

As I've demonstrated here by provideding a much truer picture of the timeline - there is no (nor has there been) any undue haste at all. There has been rhetoric designed to create that illusion by the obstructionists - but that's old stuff. It happens EVERYTIME someone doesn't have the votes - they squeal about "rush job" in an effort to stall long enough to get the votes they lack. I don't blame them - I just don't expect them to get all huffy, when I call it for what it is.
DeMint was also very up front about his intention to pursue the delay, stall, obstruct tactic ..... If that's all he's got, fine. But I'm not buying into it.

 

[nodoginnafight]

It's clear that the GOP is trying to re-visit their successful strategy of 1993 - '94 - a show of strength that helped them re-gain the house. They are even churning out the same old script and rhetoric. We'll just have to wait and see if it works for them.

That's the point of the article cited. If you make a power play and win - it's a big boost. If you make a power play and lose - it's a serious setback.

Now, I HATE framing the discussion in purely political terms like that. I'd like to think that good legislation is good for everyone and bad legislation is bad for everyone - REGARDLESS of political affiliation.

But so far, it seems FAR TOO MUCH of the debate on this issue has been purely political. Dems trying to flex their muscles and Republicans squealing just like they did in '93 to try to "hand Obama his Waterloo."

If all you've been listening to THAT crap - then yeah, you really don't know much about the bill at all ... but just fall in line with whichever side you are inclined to. But there HAS been significant discussion about the REAL elements of the bill. Sometimes you just have to dig a little deeper than your TV's remote control.

 

[rightwinger]

It's clear that the GOP is trying to re-visit their successful strategy of 1993 - '94 - a show of strength that helped them re-gain the house. They are even churning out the same old script and rhetoric. We'll just have to wait and see if it works for them.

That's the point of the article cited. If you make a power play and win - it's a big boost. If you make a power play and lose - it's a serious setback.

Now, I HATE framing the discussion in purely political terms like that. I'd like to think that good legislation is good for everyone and bad legislation is bad for everyone - REGARDLESS of political affiliation.

But so far, it seems FAR TOO MUCH of the debate on this issue has been purely political. Dems trying to flex their muscles and Republicans squealing just like they did in '93 to try to "hand Obama his Waterloo."

If you've been listening to THAT cfrap - then yeah, you really don't know much about the bill at all but just fall in line with whichever side you are inclined to. But there HAS been significant discussion about the REAL elements of the bill. Sometimes you just have to dig a little deeper than your TV's remote control.

Looks like they may even trot out Newt Gingrich again

 

[Foxfyre]

Then why are they so evasive?

I haven't seen ANYTHING that I would characterize as evasion. I have actually seen a lot of MISINFORMATION (to be charitable) coming from the GOP side of the aisle. Do they not have anything legitimate elements of the bill to attack? Why do they have to make up crap likle death panels and secrecy and rush job crap that is obviously not true.

If they had anything of substance other than their own determination to hand "Obama his Waterloo" (- DeMint) then I can only assume that they would produce it. Instead I get a steady barage of complaints like those you've expressed here which are so easily dismissed as pure fantasy.

As I've demonstrated here by provideding a much truer picture of the timeline - there is no (nor has there been) any undue haste at all. There has been rhetoric designed to create that illusion by the obstructionists - but that's old stuff. It happens EVERYTIME someone doesn't have the votes - they squeal about "rush job" in an effort to stall long enough to get the votes they lack. I don't blame them - I just don't expect them to get all huffy, when I call it for what it is.
DeMint was also very up front about his intention to pursue the delay, stall, obstruct tactic ..... If that's all he's got, fine. But I'm not buying into it.

Baloney. If there was no haste, the members of the Senate would be in their hometowns celebrating Christmas with their families and constituencies instead of planning a Christmas Eve vote in DC. If there was no haste they would be trying to sell the American public on the virtues of the bill and would wait to take the vote when most Americans that will be most affected support the effort. If there was no haste, they wouldn't be so eager to get this done a year before the next election as they hope American memories are really short and they'll forget about it until it kicks in years on down the line, and then they hope the people will not remember who is to blame for it.

Only somebody totally ideologically blind would not see that this is not something any of them are proud of for any of the right reasons or that any of them can defend with real information.

I suppose it is a matter of perspective. You see the GOP as disseminating misinformation, without specifying what misinformation they are disseminating.

I see the Democrats ducking questions and unwilling to disseminate any pertinent or honest information at all, but dealing in empty soundbites they hope sound good.