GM is doing AWESOME

[candycorn]

It is an easy argument to make, except that demand does not go away. If GM slows down, there is a shortage and prices go up for Ford. The supplier picture would quickly correct. Companies like Bain exist to make that happen....have for a long time.

Keep trying.

In the final analysis, things would have been more streamlined. Ford would made more money off less sales dollars.

Who would have won ? The American Consumer. The same poor bastards who paid to bail out GM so they could pay more money for crappier cars.

That's the lefty way !

Ford, or Toyota, or Kia, or Hyundai, or Honda...

Meanwhile, we have millions more people unemployed. Gee, wonder who pays the unemployment.

Also, the "poor bastards" who bailed out GM did so out of TARP. So the "poor bastards" had already been fleeced; prior to Obama becoming President.

Millions unemployed ? You don't know who would have been unemployed.

If you own a GM dealership and GM stops making cars. You're unemployed. If they continue to make cars, are you going to buy one from a company that may not make it through bankruptcy reorganization? So again, the dealerships--hundreds if not thousands across the nation--are unemployed. Mechanics, sales people, administrative aides etc. People who never paid a single union due in their lives. Lets say 500 dealerships, about 30 per dealership, that's 15,000 people on the unemployment line right there; in every state in the nation.

Ancillary companies like those who wash the uniforms for the mechanics ACME Buick (an example of the 500 dealerships) suffer a loss as well. The companies that sell ACME Buick their staples, notepads, maintain their signage...do their landscaping, wash their windows. All gone. A few thousand more jobs--again in every state in the nation. Not one of them likely to be unionized either.

The businesses that ACME supported via it's advertising dollars--the newspapers, radio stations, advertising production companies. One less client for them. None unionized.

Of course the high paying union jobs are gone too. Detroit gets just what it needs, another closed collection of factories. Tens of thousands of jobs gone as well.

And not just them; the case of ACME Buick in Anytown USA is multiplied 10-fold as factories shut down except now it hits other manufacturers like steel mills, component makers, etc...

Millions may be a bit of hyperbole. A million of anything is a lot. But it would have been quite a blow to the economy of the nation. Not just the "union jobs" you shit-for-brains losers keep talking about.

The other car companies only exist because of demand. Yes, they would have done better. But so would have the consumer.

And getting fleeced twice makes it O.K. That is an argument ?

That is the lefty way.

Not sure how the consumer would do better. Competition usually drives down prices. Getting rid of the #1 or #2 car maker in the world will not increase competition.

Not sure what you're saying about "getting fleeced twice". Bush's TARP bailout he did on his way out the door happened once. Unlike the bankers, Obama giving a small portion of that to GM actually helped Main Street companies as indicated above.

 

[signelect]

If a company can't make it shut it down. I had a company and when the banks got in trouble they call me loan. I paid it and shut down. I was too small to succeed. Thanks Jimmie Carter.

 

[Sinjorri]

If a company can't make it shut it down. I had a company and when the banks got in trouble they call me loan. I paid it and shut down. I was too small to succeed. Thanks Jimmie Carter.

u didnt do that on ur own but the government wont say that. sorry to hear of ur loss and i hope a silver lining appeared or will appear.

 

[candycorn]

If a company can't make it shut it down. I had a company and when the banks got in trouble they call me loan. I paid it and shut down. I was too small to succeed. Thanks Jimmie Carter.

That was sort of the point I was going for:

I understand giving banks and GM money to keep them afloat because the collateral damage would be devastating. But if the same thing were to happen today--for any reason at all--we still have too big to fail sized companies.

This is what I don't understand about the President's programs. Nothing has changed since we bailed out these companies

 

[Nemo]

The secured loan has been paid; and what remains is the stock redemption. You should also know that billions of dollars in government insured loans to business are wiped out in bankruptcy every year. Government funding is nothing new; the Bush administration provided 17.3 billion in emergency loans to GM and Chrysler to assist in restructuring efforts, which were unsuccessful. .

So they go as far back as a couple of months before Obama's innauguration? Your argument seems to be that since government did something stupid in the past, that is should keep on doing it?

In the GM case, the government was granted a priority lien for administrative expense (which security the government would not have but for the bankruptcy filing); and a major equity share in the reorganized debtor. The bankruptcy laws function to balance the interests of debtors, creditors, equity holders, unions, governmental units and other parties in interest. That’s how bankruptcy works; and it works well.

The bankruptcy laws were tossed out the window for this gigantic taxpayer ripoff. Normally the bond holders are first in line when it comes to getting their investments returned. Union contracts are last in line.

Under the bankruptcy laws, a creditor has a secured claim only to the extent of the value of the collateral, and over that value an unsecured claim. See 11 U.S.C. § 506. The GM bondholders were subordinated to the government Debtor-in-Possession financing which lien was “primed” under 11 U.S.C. § 364; which priority lien rendered their claims unsecured. They could have preserved their position by providing new value, but declined to do so; and they also rejected a debt for equity swap. All contracts, including collective bargaining agreements, are subject to modification uder the federal bankruptcy law, which governed the reorganization proceedings.

 

[Dick Tuck]

As a result, Ford gets averaged with GM.

Ford would have profited handsomly at the demise of GM. Something the good actors in a free market economy can do. They were denied that opportunity.

Ford supported the bailouts of GM and Chrysler

What cracks me us is that you somehow think this is relevant to the argument.

Would you please explain why this proves anything ?

Are you saying Ford would not have benefited from a GM failure ?

I'll say that the American consumer would have suffered with less competition in the American industry. The Federal Government would have suffered, especially DOD, who rely on American companies to supply them with vehicles.

FTR:

Obama Administration Awards First Three Auto Loans for Advanced Technologies to Ford Motor Company, Nissan Motors and Tesla Motors

 

[Listening]

Ford supported the bailouts of GM and Chrysler

What cracks me us is that you somehow think this is relevant to the argument.

Would you please explain why this proves anything ?

Are you saying Ford would not have benefited from a GM failure ?

I'll say that the American consumer would have suffered with less competition in the American industry. The Federal Government would have suffered, especially DOD, who rely on American companies to supply them with vehicles.

FTR:

Obama Administration Awards First Three Auto Loans for Advanced Technologies to Ford Motor Company, Nissan Motors and Tesla Motors

We don't see any suffering due to airline consolidation. So, you are only guessing.

The claim that all these businesses would have disappeared without Obama is bogus.

Demand drives business and banks are not the only ones with money.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Ford supported the bailouts of GM and Chrysler

What cracks me us is that you somehow think this is relevant to the argument.

Would you please explain why this proves anything ?

Are you saying Ford would not have benefited from a GM failure ?

The CEO did testify before Congress...but funny that they never took the bailout.

They took a $5.9 billion dollar loan from the government instead.

 

[Dick Tuck]

What cracks me us is that you somehow think this is relevant to the argument.

Would you please explain why this proves anything ?

Are you saying Ford would not have benefited from a GM failure ?

I'll say that the American consumer would have suffered with less competition in the American industry. The Federal Government would have suffered, especially DOD, who rely on American companies to supply them with vehicles.

FTR:

Obama Administration Awards First Three Auto Loans for Advanced Technologies to Ford Motor Company, Nissan Motors and Tesla Motors

We don't see any suffering due to airline consolidation. So, you are only guessing.

The claim that all these businesses would have disappeared without Obama is bogus.

Demand drives business and banks are not the only ones with money.

Demand goes into the toilet when the economy is collapsing.

 

[boedicca]

GM is stuffing the channel to inflate sales and has significantly increased Subprime loans to car buyers.

And with all this, the stock price has dived.

Twould have been better to let them go bankrupt.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

GM needed a real bankruptcy where the stupid UAW work rules get crushed and their pensions getting written down to something more normal AND they pay for part of their benefits like in the real world

 

[McDowell's]

GM is stuffing the channel to inflate sales and has significantly increased Subprime loans to car buyers.

And with all this, the stock price has dived.

Twould have been better to let them go bankrupt.

But you have to overcome the short-sighted nature of those who support the bailout. They can not fathom how a company which continually falls back on government support due to poor business decisions undercuts the markets of better run companies and hampers the long term growth of those healthy firms. A company like GM saps the sales and demand for competitor products by using gimmicks rather than sound business practices which is unsustainable. Obviously the firm has not learned anything through this whole ordeal. That is not healthy for the industry or overall economy.

 

[Listening]

I'll say that the American consumer would have suffered with less competition in the American industry. The Federal Government would have suffered, especially DOD, who rely on American companies to supply them with vehicles.

FTR:

Obama Administration Awards First Three Auto Loans for Advanced Technologies to Ford Motor Company, Nissan Motors and Tesla Motors

We don't see any suffering due to airline consolidation. So, you are only guessing.

The claim that all these businesses would have disappeared without Obama is bogus.

Demand drives business and banks are not the only ones with money.

Demand goes into the toilet when the economy is collapsing.

Now you are grasping.

The economy is in the toilet.

But GM is doing fine.

You don't get it both ways.

And don't bother with the...headed to depression argument. You can't support it.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Ford supported the bailouts of GM and Chrysler

What cracks me us is that you somehow think this is relevant to the argument.

Would you please explain why this proves anything ?

Are you saying Ford would not have benefited from a GM failure ?

I'll say that the American consumer would have suffered with less competition in the American industry. The Federal Government would have suffered, especially DOD, who rely on American companies to supply them with vehicles.

FTR:

Obama Administration Awards First Three Auto Loans for Advanced Technologies to Ford Motor Company, Nissan Motors and Tesla Motors

So, I now have to prop up a business with shoddy business practices and billions in unfunded pension liabilities (still)?

Fuck that.. let 'em fail. It was all about propping up the UAW.

 

[Listening]

Did anyone see the price of cars drop like they price of housing over the past several years ?

I have not really paid attention.

 

[SniperFire]

You are certainly the Libtard exception, then:

Liberal Democrats Most Likely to Drive Imports

Liberal Democrats Most Likely to Drive Imports | Be John Galt

so who should I thank for buying American?

The conservatives who actually do it, of course.

Liberals are the least likely demographic to purchase a Union made product.

 

[The T]

Did anyone see the price of cars drop like they price of housing over the past several years ?

I have not really paid attention.

If anything? Going UP.

 

[Nemo]

General Motors Company: NYSE:GM quotes & news - Google Finance

 

[SniperFire]

The taxpayers are not out any money. The GM reorganization, which was one of the biggest bankruptcy cases in our history, was a huge success. Alternatively, letting GM fail would have been a catastrophic loss with consequential damage to the economy, and at the worst possible time. It was just not an option.

You are not only ignorant about bankruptcy law, but are ignorant about the simple facts:


Government Motors: GM Stock Hits New Low, Taxpayer Loss Hits $35 Billion

By ED CARSON, INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY
Posted 07/24/2012 07:47 PM ET

Government Motors: GM Stock Hits New Low, Taxpayer Loss Hits $35 Billion - Investors.com

 

[Listening]

Did anyone see the price of cars drop like they price of housing over the past several years ?

I have not really paid attention.

If anything? Going UP.

So, demand hasn't dropped that much even though the economy has tanked ?

One of the things that I have noticed, in general, is that prices did not drop as much as I though they would during these slow times. How is it that with demand going down, that does not happen ?

I know that cash for clunkers unfairly hit the used car market driving up the price of used cars.

Another unintended consequence of the Obama misadministration.