Global emissions hit record levels

[CrusaderFrank]

So assuming that ALL the CO2 is converted to Carbonic acid what effect would this have on ocean chemistry in any given year? The total volume of the ocean (with an average pH of 8.whatever) is 1.5E+18 if we add 30 gigatons of CO2 (3E+10), that's a .000002% difference.

How is it possible to change ocean chemistry on the scale described if you're only making these minuscule changes?

It's the change in the number of H+ ions that's important. If X amount of CO2 causes a certain pH, then an increase would cause a proportionate change, the total volume being irrelevant. That's the same mistake you make in counting the entire atmosphere when claiming the added CO2 is miniscule, when what matters is the change in the active ingredient.

Now, I'm really confused. So you're saving that adding 1 liter of carbonic acid to a 2 liter bottle of pure water is the same effect on pH as adding it to the ocean because it produces hydrogen ions?

Then you ignore the bicarbonate that's also produced in creating the hydrogen ions?

If I want to change the pH of my fish tank I have to adjust for the number of gallons in the tank, is that not true in the ocean?

 

[Trakar]

I'm confused as to what your "theory" is and what mechanism is driving this increase in CO2.

1. I thought that as oceans warmed from AGW they retained less CO2 and caused a "Feedback Loop" Have you abandoned that theory?

2. To the extent that the increase in CO2 is solely responsible for this 30% increase in acidity, can you walk me though the basic chemist involved? What's the pH of Carbonic acid? Is it a stable molecule that stays in the oceans for 200 years?

True as water warms it will hold less CO2, but if it hasn't reached its saturation point, there can be an increase in its oceanic concentration and higher outgassing in response to the higher concentration.

The basic chemistry has already been posted. This is just another example your asking a question that has already been answered. Unbuffered water bubbled with CO2 will achieve a pH of ~3. Whether or not its a stable molecule that lasts 200 years is irrelevant, as new CO2 is always available.

Additionally, the oceans are not one uniform temperature. Warmer temps in the tropical and sub-tropical surface waters mean that those areas are able to abosrb and retain less dissolved gases, whereas the cooler temperate, and northern waters can absorb and hold on to more dissolved gases. Of course, there is the depth temperature differences as well. The deep water circulations hold large amounts of very cold sea water out of contact with the upper warm layers for as long as a thousand years in some situations. That is one of the reasons that it takes so long for CO2 and corresponding temperature effects at least a thousand years to fully equilibrate in the terrestrial environment.

 

[Trakar]

And all it takes is one molecule of CO2 to turn the oceans acidic?

Can you continue you train of thought?

What does it mean that "the oceans are about 30% more acidic than they were a century ago"? If the ocean pH is 8, where does a 30% more acidic change take us?

(I have several more questions, but it's best to do this in small doses because I'm a layman)

Frankie Boy, you have been shown what the scientists state many times on all aspects of this subject. All you do is come back with idiotic nonsense every time. Why should anybody waste their time on you?

You really want answers? Google

All these scientists and they can't come up with one repeatable lab experiment that shows us how a 100PPM increase in atmospheric CO2 causes an increase in temperature and acidifies the oceans (thank me for leaving out the ridiculous 'and causes undersea earthquakes and volcanoes' out)

Why is that Rocks? If it works as you suggest why does it fail 100% of the time in a lab?

I've addressed this several times and even provided you with a viable experiment that you can perform to verify the situation for yourself, and yet here you are again repeating the same canard that has been demonstrated false.

 

[konradv]

"Theoretical calculations show that the presence of even a single molecule of water causes carbonic acid to revert to carbon dioxide and water."

So, as an acid that able to change ocean pH Carbonic acid is just terrible ineffective.

Are you saying that or is that something from another post? Either way it doesn't make sense. Carbonic acid is CO2 + H2O, so water causes it to form, not dissociate.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Frankie Boy, you have been shown what the scientists state many times on all aspects of this subject. All you do is come back with idiotic nonsense every time. Why should anybody waste their time on you?

You really want answers? Google

All these scientists and they can't come up with one repeatable lab experiment that shows us how a 100PPM increase in atmospheric CO2 causes an increase in temperature and acidifies the oceans (thank me for leaving out the ridiculous 'and causes undersea earthquakes and volcanoes' out)

Why is that Rocks? If it works as you suggest why does it fail 100% of the time in a lab?

I've addressed this several times and even provided you with a viable experiment that you can perform to verify the situation for yourself, and yet here you are again repeating the same canard that has been demonstrated false.

I can say for absolute certainty that adding 100PPM of CO2 to a control tank will not drop the pH of any water in the tank nor will it raise temperature

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"Theoretical calculations show that the presence of even a single molecule of water causes carbonic acid to revert to carbon dioxide and water."

So, as an acid that able to change ocean pH Carbonic acid is just terrible ineffective.

Are you saying that or is that something from another post? Either way it doesn't make sense. Carbonic acid is CO2 + H2O, so water causes it to form, not dissociate.

It's from bobgnotes link

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"Spectroscopic studies of carbonic acid

Theoretical calculations show that the presence of even a single molecule of water causes carbonic acid to revert to carbon dioxide and water."

Carbonic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, as an acid able to change ocean pH Carbonic acid totally sucks

 

[konradv]

So assuming that ALL the CO2 is converted to Carbonic acid what effect would this have on ocean chemistry in any given year? The total volume of the ocean (with an average pH of 8.whatever) is 1.5E+18 if we add 30 gigatons of CO2 (3E+10), that's a .000002% difference.

How is it possible to change ocean chemistry on the scale described if you're only making these minuscule changes?

It's the change in the number of H+ ions that's important. If X amount of CO2 causes a certain pH, then an increase would cause a proportionate change, the total volume being irrelevant. That's the same mistake you make in counting the entire atmosphere when claiming the added CO2 is miniscule, when what matters is the change in the active ingredient.

Now, I'm really confused. So you're saving that adding 1 liter of carbonic acid to a 2 liter bottle of pure water is the same effect on pH as adding it to the ocean because it produces hydrogen ions?

Then you ignore the bicarbonate that's also produced in creating the hydrogen ions?

If I want to change the pH of my fish tank I have to adjust for the number of gallons in the tank, is that not true in the ocean?

That's an inefficient way to do it. It's a lot more effective to add base. The H+ ions are already in balance with the bicarbonate per the dissociation constant. pH is the negative log of the H+ concentration, so no, the bicarb has no further influence on the pH beyond binding most of the H+, carbonic being a weak acid.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

It's the change in the number of H+ ions that's important. If X amount of CO2 causes a certain pH, then an increase would cause a proportionate change, the total volume being irrelevant. That's the same mistake you make in counting the entire atmosphere when claiming the added CO2 is miniscule, when what matters is the change in the active ingredient.

Now, I'm really confused. So you're saving that adding 1 liter of carbonic acid to a 2 liter bottle of pure water is the same effect on pH as adding it to the ocean because it produces hydrogen ions?

Then you ignore the bicarbonate that's also produced in creating the hydrogen ions?

If I want to change the pH of my fish tank I have to adjust for the number of gallons in the tank, is that not true in the ocean?

That's an inefficient way to do it. It's a lot more effective to add base. The H+ ions are already in balance with the bicarbonate per the dissociation constant. pH is the negative log of the H+ concentration, so no, the bicarb has no further influence on the pH beyond binding most of the H+, carbonic being a weak acid.

Whoooa! That's as long forgotten as anything I knew about electricity.

I have to treat it like an accounting problem to understand it.

Do the bicarbonate and hydrogen ions have the same, but offsetting effect on pH?

 

[konradv]

Do the bicarbonate and hydrogen ions have the same, but offsetting effect on pH?

No they don't. pH is the a measure of the H+ concentration only. Bicarbonate's effect is to bind most of the H+. The H+ that remains dissociated is what pH is the measure of.

 

[Trakar]

One small correction, that would be ----> H+ + HCO3-

Gotta keep those charges balanced.

True enough, good catch!

Truth be told, the posting box here screwed up my original post (done in ChemSketch) so badly that I'm sure I lost the anion signifier in the clean-up and just didn't notice it's disappearance. No excuses, however, I should have proofed the post.

Actually, if the setup here had sub and superscript functionality there would probably be no need to write chem formulae in a seperate editor, is there a feature I don't have activated, or is it just antiquated board-ware?

Bicarbonate is an alkaline, right? That's the opposite of an acid, right? How can you just count the free hydrogen ions and ignore the alkaline?

Bicarbonate is basic/alkaline, but in order to fully explain the interactions that occur is going to take more than can be accomplished in "small words," we are going to have to discuss buffer chemistries, the Revelle factor, the total dissolved inorganic carbon components (TCO) the total alkalinity (TA) and a host of chain interactions that are standard environmental carbon chemistry understandings, and are straight forward in their chemistry but would be rather awkward to carry on in a political soundbyte messageboard, particularly in a situation where I cannot take even basic chemistry understandings to a given. A basic level general college chemistry course would provide more than enough basic understanding to discuss the subject competently.

I can take you a little way further but then you are going to have to put some effort into learning some basic chemical processes before I can take you much further in messageboard posts.

HCO3- (bicarbonate) <------> H+ + CO3^2- (carbonate cation)

These carbonate ions then tend to clump and precipitate out of the water fairly rapidly as they combine with the various dissolved mineral salts in the ocean and ocean life (eg CaCO3; Ca2+ + 2 HCO3- <------> CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O) and be removed from the solution, leaving two free Hydrogen cations for each molecule of CO2 dissolved into seawater that follows this process.

again this is a generalized description and we'd actually need to discuss the contributions of these other factors to have a good grasp of what is occuring if you'd like a few references, you can try:

The DOE handbook, I believe it is titled - "Methods of analysis of carbon dioxide in seawater." but it isn't a "small words" reference.

Or, any good aquatic or marine chemistry text/reference

 

[Trakar]

So assuming that ALL the CO2 is converted to Carbonic acid what effect would this have on ocean chemistry in any given year? The total volume of the ocean (with an average pH of 8.whatever) is 1.5E+18 if we add 30 gigatons of CO2 (3E+10), that's a .000002% difference.

How is it possible to change ocean chemistry on the scale described if you're only making these minuscule changes?

First, the entire volume of the oceans is irrelevent in the near term, and until overall totals of additions and components are considered. As the overturn of the oceans is at around 1000 years, that is the only real time frame that would be relevent to discussing a total ocean volume and pH level. In general, for most purposes of this discussion all we are concerned about is the top 30-50 meters of ocean which is significantly less than your volume calculations which looks like they assume an average depth of more than 3700m.

Secondly, we are talking averages, so while the absolute mean of the overall pH is only 8.135, the local and regional swings that contribute to this average can be much more acidic and in some cases we are actually talking about large pools of surface acidic solutions (pH measurements in the 6.7 - 6.9 range), rather than merely basic solutions that have slightly lower cation concentrations.

finally, the levels need not be extreme to have serious impact especially when we are talking about exposing sensitive larval forms of sealife to different than they are adapted to handle. Even in humans, if our blood pH varies by much more than half a unit either way (7.35 - 7.45) it can be extremely dangerous and potentially lethal. For the larval forms of most crustaceans, shellfish and fish, the tolerance of pH change is very narrow between just right and dead.

 

[Old Rocks]

CORVALLIS, Ore. &#8211; Researchers at Oregon State University have definitively linked an increase in ocean acidification to the collapse of oyster seed production at a commercial oyster hatchery in Oregon, where larval growth had declined to a level considered by the owners to be &#8220;non-economically viable.&#8221;

A study by the researchers found that elevated seawater carbon dioxide (CO2) levels, resulting in more corrosive ocean water, inhibited the larval oysters from developing their shells and growing at a pace that would make commercial production cost-effective. As atmospheric CO2 levels continue to rise, this may serve as the proverbial canary in the coal mine for other ocean acidification impacts on shellfish, the scientists say.

Results of the research have just been published in the journal, Limnology and Oceanography.

&#8220;This is one of the first times that we have been able to show how ocean acidification affects oyster larval development at a critical life stage,&#8221; said Burke Hales, an OSU chemical oceanographer and co-author on the study. &#8220;The predicted rise of atmospheric CO2 in the next two to three decades may push oyster larval growth past the break-even point in terms of production.&#8221;

The owners of Whiskey Creek Shellfish Hatchery at Oregon&#8217;s Netarts Bay began experiencing a decline in oyster seed production several years ago, and looked at potential causes including low oxygen and pathogenic bacteria. Alan Barton, who works at the hatchery and is an author on the journal article, was able to eliminate those potential causes and shifted his focus to acidification.

Hatchery, OSU scientists link ocean acidification to larval oyster failure | News & Research Communications | Oregon State University

 

[Trakar]

What's the PH of fresh water run-off? ((7.0) You morons say...

Fresh water's pH is not 7.0, it's in the acidic range. As soon as water meets air it starts absorbing CO2 and forms carbonic acid. For water to have a pH of 7.0 it would have to be freshly distilled and kept under an inert gas.

I'd be careful about calling people morons, when you apparently don't even know basic physical chemistry.

We tend to use deionized (DI) water in most labs, which is carefully filtered to remove the mineral ions. Some systems yeild water that may still contain a few impurities but they will not have charged mineral ions present. Technically, even pure water has a mix of cations and anions as water itself has a small tendency to partially dissociate into H+ and OH- but as it is a short term issue and the charged species tend to remain in solution close to each other, there is no net change in pH.

 

[Trakar]

All these scientists and they can't come up with one repeatable lab experiment that shows us how a 100PPM increase in atmospheric CO2 causes an increase in temperature and acidifies the oceans (thank me for leaving out the ridiculous 'and causes undersea earthquakes and volcanoes' out)

Why is that Rocks? If it works as you suggest why does it fail 100% of the time in a lab?

I've addressed this several times and even provided you with a viable experiment that you can perform to verify the situation for yourself, and yet here you are again repeating the same canard that has been demonstrated false.

I can say for absolute certainty that adding 100PPM of CO2 to a control tank will not drop the pH of any water in the tank nor will it raise temperature

You can say whatever you like, that doesn't make your statement an accurate reflection of reality.

 

[Old Rocks]

I'm confused as to what your "theory" is and what mechanism is driving this increase in CO2.

1. I thought that as oceans warmed from AGW they retained less CO2 and caused a "Feedback Loop" Have you abandoned that theory?

2. To the extent that the increase in CO2 is solely responsible for this 30% increase in acidity, can you walk me though the basic chemist involved? What's the pH of Carbonic acid? Is it a stable molecule that stays in the oceans for 200 years?

True as water warms it will hold less CO2, but if it hasn't reached its saturation point, there can be an increase in its oceanic concentration and higher outgassing in response to the higher concentration.

The basic chemistry has already been posted. This is just another example your asking a question that has already been answered. Unbuffered water bubbled with CO2 will achieve a pH of ~3. Whether or not its a stable molecule that lasts 200 years is irrelevant, as new CO2 is always available.

What's the PH of fresh water run-off? ((7.0) You morons say the sea is rising at "alarming" rates. WHERE IS THAT RISE COMING FROM?

What about acids formed from NOx and SOx?? We know there was a huge spike over the past couple decades.. How much has THAT Contributed?

The ocean exchanges 12 times the man-made contribution of CO2 per year. How ACCURATE is that source/sink measurement and what variables could cause it to change?

But more importantly -- what does it MEAN if we don't know day to day, month to month PH variances in the ecosystems that we are concerned about. I posted the chart -- no comments. Guess you're not concerned about 80% NATURAL monthly variations in PH.

Now Flatulance, the term 'exchanges' mean something to you? Kind of like in and out, no influence on the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere if the other factors are in balance.
And we know the amount of fossil fuels used each year, so we know how many giga-tons of CO2 we are putting into the atmosphere.

 

[Trakar]

"Spectroscopic studies of carbonic acid

Theoretical calculations show that the presence of even a single molecule of water causes carbonic acid to revert to carbon dioxide and water."

Carbonic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, as an acid able to change ocean pH Carbonic acid totally sucks

That's why wiki is not a useful or reliable reference for much of anything other than keywords for a real search. The main issue of this incredibly poorly written section on the spectroscopic studies of carbonic acid (Carbonic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is that they are discussing pure gaseous carbonic acid (H2CO3) free floating in interstellar nebulae which can be decomposed with heat into H2O and CO2, or in the vaccum of space they propose that interaction with a single water molecule might allow the substance to decay faster by technically allowing the acid to exist in solution. there is no need for this though, at normal temps and pressures the reaction is constantly occurring in both directions, there is a slight bias toward the H2CO3 side of the reaction which gives rise to the disassociation reaction yeilding H+ + HCO3- and the 2H+ + CO3^2- products.

 

[Trakar]

Whoooa! That's as long forgotten as anything I knew about electricity.

I have to treat it like an accounting problem to understand it.

Do the bicarbonate and hydrogen ions have the same, but offsetting effect on pH?

no bicarbonate acts as a buffer, but pH is solely determined by the concentration of H+

(hint - pH p=-log10 (power of) H = H+ (hydronium cation) pH = concentration of free hydrogen ions.)

Here's a graph that may help a bit, I was going to attach it to an earlier post and forgot it.

 

[flacaltenn]

True as water warms it will hold less CO2, but if it hasn't reached its saturation point, there can be an increase in its oceanic concentration and higher outgassing in response to the higher concentration.

The basic chemistry has already been posted. This is just another example your asking a question that has already been answered. Unbuffered water bubbled with CO2 will achieve a pH of ~3. Whether or not its a stable molecule that lasts 200 years is irrelevant, as new CO2 is always available.

What's the PH of fresh water run-off? ((7.0) You morons say the sea is rising at "alarming" rates. WHERE IS THAT RISE COMING FROM?

What about acids formed from NOx and SOx?? We know there was a huge spike over the past couple decades.. How much has THAT Contributed?

The ocean exchanges 12 times the man-made contribution of CO2 per year. How ACCURATE is that source/sink measurement and what variables could cause it to change?

But more importantly -- what does it MEAN if we don't know day to day, month to month PH variances in the ecosystems that we are concerned about. I posted the chart -- no comments. Guess you're not concerned about 80% NATURAL monthly variations in PH.

Now Flatulance, the term 'exchanges' mean something to you? Kind of like in and out, no influence on the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere if the other factors are in balance.
And we know the amount of fossil fuels used each year, so we know how many giga-tons of CO2 we are putting into the atmosphere.

Wow gee thanks. If I need anymore Help on this I'll ask you.. But you're very wrong. The ocean "in and out" DOES have "influence on the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere" because the ocean absorbs IN EXCESS of what it emits you turkey. OTHERWISE there'd be no OceanAcid. effect caused by man... Can they revoke your diploma?

NOW -- how accurately do we know the amount of CO2 being sourced and sunk by the Ocean (or the land for that matter). If the ocean uptake and emission varied by just about 10% per year (due to El Nino or other effects) it would more than equal the total man-made emissions. Could be that the OA effect is poorly understood because the variabilty of these rates are significantly HIGHER than the entire Anthro contributions of CO2 - BECAUSE the nominal ocean exchange is 12 times that amount.

And what about the OTHER 3 questions I asked that are poorly answered in the lit.. I can you 3 GREAT references on how little we know about the NATURAL PH variability of biosystems that you guys say that we are currently destroying (for instance).

 

[Old Rocks]

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/envs501/downloads/Feely et al. 2010.pdf

Puget Sound is a large estuary complex in the U.S. Pacific Northwest that is home to a diverse and
economically important ecosystem threatened by anthropogenic impacts associated with climate
change, urbanization, and ocean acidification. While ocean acidification has been studied in oceanic
waters, little is known regarding its status in estuaries. Anthropogenically acidified coastal waters
upwelling along the western North American continental margin can enter Puget Sound through the
Strait of Juan de Fuca. In order to study the combined effects of ocean acidification and other natural and
anthropogenic processes on Puget Sound waters, we made the first inorganic carbon measurements in
this estuary on two survey cruises in February and August of 2008. Observed pH and aragonite saturation
state values in surface and subsurface waters were substantially lower in parts of Puget Sound than
would be expected from anthropogenic carbon dioxide (CO2) uptake alone. We estimate that ocean
acidification can account for 24e49% of the pH decrease in the deep waters of the Hood Canal sub-basin
of Puget Sound relative to estimated pre-industrial values. The remaining change in pH between when
seawater enters the sound and when it reaches this deep basin results from remineralization of organic
matter due to natural or anthropogenically stimulated respiration processes within Puget Sound. Over
time, however, the relative impact of ocean acidification could increase significantly, accounting for
49e82% of the pH decrease in subsurface waters for a doubling of atmospheric CO2. These changes may
have profound impacts on the Puget Sound ecosystem over the next several decades. These estimates
suggest that the role ocean acidification will play in estuaries may be different from the open ocean.