Give 'em Hell in a Hurry, Harry!

[mdn2000]

Tit for tat, in 1948, when speaking or writing of Palestine, the term Palestinian was not applied to Arab/Moslems. That particular argument I will make in another post.

Palestine is a region, was alway a region, never a Country, never a Nation, never a State, never was a Nation called Palestine. Geographic area within Syria.

F L A M E : Israel's Borders: Are they "legitimate"? Should they be changed?

Myth: The establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 changed border arrangements that had existed for centuries.

Fact: The borders in the Middle East were drawn arbitrarily after World War I by Britain and France. In the spoils, Britain got Iraq and Palestine. In 1922, contrary to the Balfour Declaration and to its Mandate from the League of Nations, Britain gave the area east of the Jordan River (77% of Palestine) to the Hashemite tribes.

Myth: Judea and Samaria (also called "the West Bank") are part of Jordan.

Fact: The British allocated the area east of the Jordan River to the Hashemite tribes. These tribes founded a kingdom and called it Transjordan. In 1948, after the declaration of Israel's independence, the British-led Transjordanians attacked the newly founded Jewish state and were able to occupy Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank") and the eastern part of Jerusalem. They renamed themselves "Jordan" and stayed in that occupation for 19 years, until they were defeated and driven out by Israel in the 1967 Six Day War.

Myth: Israeli settlements in Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank") are illegal, an obstacle in peace.

Fact: Contrary to what Arab propaganda suggests, Jordan was never sovereign in Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank"). Thus, the constantly repeated accusation of "Israeli occupation" is pointless. Numerous international legal authorities, among them Eugene Rostow, have shown conclusively that Israel's rights in Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank") are based on international law and are further affirmed by U.N. Resolutions 242 and 338. President Reagan concluded that Jewish settlements are not illegal and that "...all people — Moslems, Jews, and Christians — are entitled to live in the West Bank."

 

[mdn2000]

I am not going to rely simply on this website, I found out about this website by reading the American Spectator and NewsMax magazines. These are their ads.

I can also site passages in books written by people of the times, copyrights on the books will be pre-1948. I may also have a life magazine or two that have articles that refer to the people of Palestine as Arabs, Moslems, Jews, and Christians, not to mention all the other people.

Arabs historically would never refer to themselves as Palestinians, if we read Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom we will find no people referred to as Palestinian, they are all known by the family name of the sheik of the tribe. Hashemite, Saudi, I could name more if I opened the book but its time to get off work.

Other than a simple website, we will not find the term Palestinian referring to Moslems or Arabs. Papers, people, scholars, never referred to the Arabs as Palestinian.

F L A M E : A "Palestinian Homeland:" Is it a valid aspiration or an unwarranted demand?

What are the facts?

Some clarifying definitions are in order. The Arabs living in "Palestine" — which is Jordan, Israel and the areas administered by Israel — like to refer to themselves as "Palestinians," and to the Jews living there as "Jews." But all inhabitants of Palestine obviously are Palestinians — either Arab or Jewish Palestinians. By only referring to themselves, but not to the Jews, as "Palestinians," the Arabs attempt to convey legitimacy on themselves and illegitimacy on the Jews, despite the uninterrupted presence of Jews in all part of Palestine since Biblical times.

In 1948, the Palestinian State of Jordan, in an act of naked aggression, invaded the just-born state of Israel. It managed to occupy Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank") and the eastern part of Jerusalem. For the next 19 years, and until 1967 when the territory came under Israeli administration after the Six-day War, Judea/Samaria was part of the Kingdom of Jordan. During that entire time, nothing was ever heard of "Palestinian" peoplehood. The thought of creating a second "Palestinian" state in the "West Bank," in addition to the Palestinian state of Jordan, did not occur to anyone — certainly not to the "Palestinians," not to any of the 22 Arab countries, and not to the rest of the world

 

[Marc39]

For John Quigley Palestine's existence as a state predates the 1988 declaration. Tracing Palestine's status as an international entity back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, he recalls that the Palestine Mandate (1918–1948), an arrangement made under Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, held as its "ultimate objective", the "self-determination and independence of the people concerned." He says that in explicitly referring to the Covenant, the 1988 declaration was reaffirming an existing Palestinian statehood.[126] Noting that Palestine under the Mandate entered into bilateral treaties, including one with Great Britain, the Mandatory power, he cites this as an example of its "sovereignty" at that time. He also notes the corollary of the Stimson Doctrine and the customary prohibition on the use of force contained in the Restatement of Foreign Relations Law of the United States, "[a]n entity does not necessarily cease to be a state even if all of its territory has been occupied by a foreign power"

Middle East historian Bernard Lewis...

The word Palestine comes from "Philistine" and originally denoted the coastal region north and south of Gaza [not the land now known as Israel] which was occupied and settled by the Philistine invaders from across the Mediterranean sea [who were Aegean, not Arab or Semitic]

At first, the country of which Palestine was a part was felt to be Syria. In Ottoman times, that is, immediately before the coming of the British, Palestine had indeed been a part of a larger Syrian whole from which it was in no way distinguished whether by language, culture, education, administration, political allegiance, or any other significant respect.

After the Ottoman conquest in 1516-17, Palestine was no longer used by Muslims, for whom it had never meant more than an administrative sub-district, and it had been forgotten even in that limited sense. In the final phase of this rule before the British conquest, Palestine was part of Beirut.

 

[P F Tinmore]

mdm2000,

...that have articles that refer to the people of Palestine as Arabs, Moslems, Jews, and Christians, not to mention all the other people.

Palestine has always been and still is multi religious.

The Arabs living in "Palestine" — which is Jordan, Israel and the areas administered by Israel — like to refer to themselves as "Palestinians," and to the Jews living there as "Jews." But all inhabitants of Palestine obviously are Palestinians — either Arab or Jewish Palestinians. By only referring to themselves, but not to the Jews, as "Palestinians," the Arabs attempt to convey legitimacy on themselves and illegitimacy on the Jews, despite the uninterrupted presence of Jews in all part of Palestine since Biblical times.

The Palestinians do not say that Jordan is Palestine.

Indigenous Muslim, Christians, and Jews call themselves Palestinians. Non indigenous Jews are called Jews or Zionists. Palestinian Muslims, Christians, and Jews living in Israel say they are living under Israeli occupation.

The confusion is that there are two distinct classes of Jews.

 

[Marc39]

mdm2000,

...that have articles that refer to the people of Palestine as Arabs, Moslems, Jews, and Christians, not to mention all the other people.

Palestine has always been and still is multi religious.

Palestine is a fiction invented by the Romans who were not Semitic, who named Judea, land of the Jews, "Palaestina" after the Philistines who were Aegean, not Semitic, either.

There is no reference to Palestine in the Hebrew Bible, Christian Bible, Quran or any biblical-era historical documents.

Middle East historian Bernard Lewis edifies...

The word Palestine comes from "Philistine" and originally denoted the coastal region north and south of Gaza [not the land now known as Israel] which was occupied and settled by the Philistine invaders from across the Mediterranean sea [who were Aegean, not Arab or Semitic]

At first, the country of which Palestine was a part was felt to be Syria. In Ottoman times, that is, immediately before the coming of the British, Palestine had indeed been a part of a larger Syrian whole from which it was in no way distinguished whether by language, culture, education, administration, political allegiance, or any other significant respect.

After the Ottoman conquest in 1516-17, Palestine was no longer used by Muslims, for whom it had never meant more than an administrative sub-district, and it had been forgotten even in that limited sense. In the final phase of this rule before the British conquest, Palestine was part of Beirut.

The Palestine entity, formally established and defined by Britain, was formaly abolished in 1948 with the termination of the Mandate

 

[docmauser1]

The confusion is that there are two distinct classes of Jews.

As per local madrasa drivel, of course.

 

[Marc39]

The Palestinians do not say that Jordan is Palestine.

Jordan, historically, was Eastern Palestine and designated as such by the League of Nations in their original Palestine Mandate.

Jordan is mostly "Palestinian" demographically, including Queen Rania, who calls herself a Palestinian

Palestinians are merely Arabs, no different than Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis or any other Arab.

"Palestine" was viewed by Arabs as southern Syria for most of the past 500 years.

Indigenous Muslim, Christians, and Jews call themselves Palestinians. Non indigenous Jews are called Jews or Zionists. Palestinian Muslims, Christians, and Jews living in Israel say they are living under Israeli occupation.

Muslims are indigenous to Arabia, birthplace of Islam.

Jews and Christians are indigenous to Canaan and Judea and Samaria, the correct historical geographic names of the land, not "Palestine"

Your lesson for the day.

 

[P F Tinmore]

mdn2000

In 1948, the Palestinian State of Jordan, in an act of naked aggression, invaded the just-born state of Israel. It managed to occupy Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank") and the eastern part of Jerusalem. For the next 19 years, and until 1967 when the territory came under Israeli administration after the Six-day War, Judea/Samaria was part of the Kingdom of Jordan. During that entire time, nothing was ever heard of "Palestinian" peoplehood.

Jordan (Iraq was under Jordanian command) was promised $3M a year for five years not to invade Israel. They didn't.

Two of the five countries that supposedly invaded Israel did not.

The PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) was formed in 1964 by Palestinian liberation groups that started in the 50s.

The West Bank was not part of Jordan. It was Jordanian occupied Palestinian land.

 

[Marc39]

mdn2000

In 1948, the Palestinian State of Jordan, in an act of naked aggression, invaded the just-born state of Israel. It managed to occupy Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank") and the eastern part of Jerusalem. For the next 19 years, and until 1967 when the territory came under Israeli administration after the Six-day War, Judea/Samaria was part of the Kingdom of Jordan. During that entire time, nothing was ever heard of "Palestinian" peoplehood.

Jordan (Iraq was under Jordanian command) was promised $3M a year for five years not to invade Israel. They didn't.

Muslims have to be bought off not to be warmongers.

The West Bank was not part of Jordan. It was Jordanian occupied Palestinian land.

Wrong. The West Bank was Judea and Samaria, Jewish land, prior to Jordan's illegal seizure of the land.

There are no references to "The West Bank" in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[Marc39]

The PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) was formed in 1964 by Palestinian liberation groups that started in the 50s.

Zuheir Mohsen, former PLO Leader...

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.

Zuheir Mohsen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Arab Commentator Azmi Bishara...

Well, I dont think there is a Palestinian nation at all. I think there is an Arab nation. I always thought so and I did not change my mind. I do not think there is a Palestinian nation, I think its a colonialist invention - Palestinian nation. When were there any Palestinians? Where did it come from? I think there is an Arab nation. I never turned to be a Palestinian nationalist, despite of my decisive struggle against the occupation. I think that until the end of the 19th century, Palestine was the south of Greater Syria.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3n5-yG-6dU[/ame]

 

[georgephillip]

The Palestinians do not say that Jordan is Palestine.

Jordan, historically, was Eastern Palestine and designated as such by the League of Nations in their original Palestine Mandate.

Jordan is mostly "Palestinian" demographically, including Queen Rania, who calls herself a Palestinian

Palestinians are merely Arabs, no different than Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis or any other Arab.

"Palestine" was viewed by Arabs as southern Syria for most of the past 500 years.

Indigenous Muslim, Christians, and Jews call themselves Palestinians. Non indigenous Jews are called Jews or Zionists. Palestinian Muslims, Christians, and Jews living in Israel say they are living under Israeli occupation.

Muslims are indigenous to Arabia, birthplace of Islam.

Jews and Christians are indigenous to Canaan and Judea and Samaria, the correct historical geographic names of the land, not "Palestine"

Your lesson for the day.

How rich is Queen Rania?

As rich as Warren Buffett?

As rich as bibi?

What does it feel like to become rich from killing your neighbor's children?

Parasite.

 

[Trajan]

When Israel declared it's independence on May 14, 1948, President Harry Truman required all of 11 minutes to recognize the Jewish state.

"Truman wrote:

'Hitler had been murdering Jews right and left. I saw it, and I dream about it even to this day. The Jews needed some place where they could go. It is my attitude that the American government couldn't stand idly by while the victims [of] Hitler's madness are not allowed to build new lives.'"

Harry S. Truman - Wiki

Gore Vidal offers JFK's version of Harry's dream:

"Sometime in the late 1950s, that world-class gossip and occasional historian, John F. Kennedy, told me how, in 1948, Harry S. Truman had been pretty much abandoned by everyone when he came to run for president.

"Then an American Zionist brought him two million dollars in cash, in a suitcase, aboard his whistle-stop campaign train.

'That's why our recognition of Israel was rushed through so fast.'

"As neither Jack nor I was an anti-Semite (unlike his father and my grandfather) we took this to be just another funny story about Truman and the serene corruption of American politics."

Jewish History, Jewish Religion...

so, you are basically claiming that Truman was bought, to recognize Israel? is that correct?

JFK apparently thought so.
Gore Vidal found it credible.
Sounds like a likely example of the serene corruption of American politics to me.
What about you?

apparently? No offense, JFK may be a golden child, but he was dirty as hell, we KNOW he was. Maybe he was projecting.

Gore Vidal? Sorry...........

Harry Truman? No.If you have read his statement on the matter, I find it credible and heartfelt.

and yes I know all about Pendergast etc.

 

[Marc39]

The Palestinians do not say that Jordan is Palestine.

Jordan, historically, was Eastern Palestine and designated as such by the League of Nations in their original Palestine Mandate.

Jordan is mostly "Palestinian" demographically, including Queen Rania, who calls herself a Palestinian

Palestinians are merely Arabs, no different than Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis or any other Arab.

"Palestine" was viewed by Arabs as southern Syria for most of the past 500 years.

Indigenous Muslim, Christians, and Jews call themselves Palestinians. Non indigenous Jews are called Jews or Zionists. Palestinian Muslims, Christians, and Jews living in Israel say they are living under Israeli occupation.

Muslims are indigenous to Arabia, birthplace of Islam.

Jews and Christians are indigenous to Canaan and Judea and Samaria, the correct historical geographic names of the land, not "Palestine"

Your lesson for the day.

How rich is Queen Rania?

As rich as Warren Buffett?

As rich as bibi?

What does it feel like to become rich from killing your neighbor's children?

Parasite.

What does it feel like to fellate your Muslim overlords committing genocide in Darfur?

The genocide in Darfur has claimed 400,000 lives and displaced over 2,500,000 people. More than one hundred people continue to die each day; five thousand die every month.

Since February 2003, the Sudanese government in Khartoum and the government-sponsored Janjaweed militia have used rape, displacement, organized starvation, threats against aid workers and mass murder. Violence, disease, and displacement continue to kill thousands of innocent Darfurians every month.

Genocide in Darfur, Sudan | Darfur Scorecard
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-ojg9UjMk0[/ame]

 

[Marc39]

The Palestinians do not say that Jordan is Palestine.

Jordan, historically, was Eastern Palestine and designated as such by the League of Nations in their original Palestine Mandate.

Jordan is mostly "Palestinian" demographically, including Queen Rania, who calls herself a Palestinian

Palestinians are merely Arabs, no different than Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis or any other Arab.

"Palestine" was viewed by Arabs as southern Syria for most of the past 500 years.

Indigenous Muslim, Christians, and Jews call themselves Palestinians. Non indigenous Jews are called Jews or Zionists. Palestinian Muslims, Christians, and Jews living in Israel say they are living under Israeli occupation.

Muslims are indigenous to Arabia, birthplace of Islam.

Jews and Christians are indigenous to Canaan and Judea and Samaria, the correct historical geographic names of the land, not "Palestine"

Your lesson for the day.

Parasite.

Who's the parasite, parasite?
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYgrziadQIo[/ame]

 

[georgephillip]

so, you are basically claiming that Truman was bought, to recognize Israel? is that correct?

JFK apparently thought so.
Gore Vidal found it credible.
Sounds like a likely example of the serene corruption of American politics to me.
What about you?

apparently? No offense, JFK may be a golden child, but he was dirty as hell, we KNOW he was. Maybe he was projecting.

Gore Vidal? Sorry...........

Harry Truman? No.If you have read his statement on the matter, I find it credible and heartfelt.

and yes I know all about Pendergast etc.

Since I believe all politicians are dirty, you'll get no argument from me about JFK's integrity. If Harry took the $2 million and if JFK had been as poor as Harry, I have zero doubt he would have done the same.

I am not so sure about Kennedy's alleged transformation from Cold Warrior to Peacemaker as outlined in Edward Curtin's review of James Douglass's 2008 book JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why it Matters.

Briefly, Douglas argues the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis scared Kennedy and Nikita Khrushchev into abandoning the cold war.

I was alive at that time and can remember only one other period when Americans were paying hourly attention to politics and that was the week after 911.

You mention a statement Harry Truman made that you found credible and heartfelt. Did that statement directly address the $2 million Zionist bribe accusation?

JFK and the Unspeakable:

 

[Marc39]

JFK apparently thought so.
Gore Vidal found it credible.
Sounds like a likely example of the serene corruption of American politics to me.
What about you?

apparently? No offense, JFK may be a golden child, but he was dirty as hell, we KNOW he was. Maybe he was projecting.

Gore Vidal? Sorry...........

Harry Truman? No.If you have read his statement on the matter, I find it credible and heartfelt.

and yes I know all about Pendergast etc.

Since I believe all politicians are dirty, you'll get no argument from me about JFK's integrity. If Harry took the $2 million and if JFK had been as poor as Harry, I have zero doubt he would have done the same.

I am not so sure about Kennedy's alleged transformation from Cold Warrior to Peacemaker as outlined in Edward Curtin's review of James Douglass's 2008 book JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why it Matters.

Briefly, Douglas argues the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis scared Kennedy and Nikita Khrushchev into abandoning the cold war.

I was alive at that time and can remember only one other period when Americans were paying hourly attention to politics and that was the week after 911.

You mention a statement Harry Truman made that you found credible and heartfelt. Did that statement directly address the $2 million Zionist bribe accusation?

JFK and the Unspeakable:

 

[Marc39]

You mention a statement Harry Truman made that you found credible and heartfelt. Did that statement directly address the $2 million Zionist bribe accusation?

Did the 51 member states of the League of Nations that unanimously reestablished the Jewish homeland in 1922, well before Truman, accept Zionist bribes, psycho?

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country

 

[georgephillip]

Sympathetic connection of the Jewish people with Palestine.

You might remember the US never joined the League of Nations, and only supports Israel because of the vast amounts of war profits generated by a Jewish homeland in the heart of Arab oil.

 

[Marc39]

Sympathetic connection of the Jewish people with Palestine.

You might remember the US never joined the League of Nations, and only supports Israel because of the vast amounts of war profits generated by a Jewish homeland in the heart of Arab oil.

You're too uneducated to know the US Congress issued a joint House resolution in 1922 applauding the League of Nations' establishment of the Jewish homeland.

Now, even you know, dummy.

The United States Congressional Record
1922 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
NATIONAL HOME FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE JUNE 30, 1922
HOUSE RESOLUTION 360 - UNANIMOUSLY ADOPTED

Palestine of today, the land we now know as Palestine, was peopled by the Jews from the dawn of history until the Roman era. It is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people. They were driven from it by force by the relentless Roman military machine and for centuries prevented from returning. At different periods various alien people succeeded them but the Jewish race had left an indelible impress upon the land.

Today it is a Jewish country. Every name, every landmark, every monument and every trace of whatever civilization remaining there is still Jewish. And it has ever since remained a hope, a longing, as expressed in their prayers for these nearly 2,000 years. No other people has ever claimed Palestine as their national home. No other people has ever shown an aptitude or indicated a genuine desire to make it their homeland. The land has been ruled by foreigners. Only since the beginning of the modern Zionist effort may it be said that a creative, cultural, and economic force has entered Palestine. The Jewish Nation was forced from its natural home. It did not go because it wanted to.

A perusal of Jewish history, a reading of Josephus, will convince the most skeptical that the grandest fight that was ever put up against an enemy was put up by the Jew. He never thought of leaving Palestine. But he was driven out. But did he, when driven out, give up his hope of getting back? Jewish history and Jewish literature give the answer to the question. The Jew even has a fast day devoted to the day of destruction of the Jewish homeland.

Never throughout history did they give up hope of returning there. I am told that 90 per cent of the Jews today are praying for the return of the Jewish people to its own home. The best minds among them believe in the necessity of reestablishing their Jewish land. To my mind there is something prophetic in the fact that during the ages no other nation has taken over Palestine and held it in the sense of a homeland; and there is something providential in the fact that for 1,800 years it has remained in desolation as if waiting for the return of the people.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688123635/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0688123627&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0HX00TRZAFXPP1PG6MNR]Amazon.com: Israel: A History (9780688123635): Martin Gilbert: Books[/ame]

 

[georgephillip]

"Sometime in the late 1950s, that world-class gossip and occasional historian, John F. Kennedy, told me how, in 1948, Harry S. Truman had been pretty much abandoned by everyone when he came to run for president.

"Then an American Zionist brought him two million dollars in cash, in a suitcase, aboard his whistle-stop campaign train. 'That's why our recognition of Israel was rushed through so fast...'

One of the world's most corrupt gangster states born of a $2 million political bribe.

What else would you expect?

Jewish History, Jewish Religion