Give 'em Hell in a Hurry, Harry!

[georgephillip]

When Israel declared it's independence on May 14, 1948, President Harry Truman required all of 11 minutes to recognize the Jewish state.

"Truman wrote:

'Hitler had been murdering Jews right and left. I saw it, and I dream about it even to this day. The Jews needed some place where they could go. It is my attitude that the American government couldn't stand idly by while the victims [of] Hitler's madness are not allowed to build new lives.'"

Harry S. Truman - Wiki

Gore Vidal offers JFK's version of Harry's dream:

"Sometime in the late 1950s, that world-class gossip and occasional historian, John F. Kennedy, told me how, in 1948, Harry S. Truman had been pretty much abandoned by everyone when he came to run for president.

"Then an American Zionist brought him two million dollars in cash, in a suitcase, aboard his whistle-stop campaign train.

'That's why our recognition of Israel was rushed through so fast.'

"As neither Jack nor I was an anti-Semite (unlike his father and my grandfather) we took this to be just another funny story about Truman and the serene corruption of American politics."

Jewish History, Jewish Religion...

 

[georgephillip]

Truman had doubters within his own administration about the wisdom of recognizing Israel.

"Truman made the decision to recognize the establishment of the State of Israel over the objections of Secretary of State George Marshall, who feared it would hurt relations with the Arab states.[104]

"At a meeting in the White House on November 10, 1945, he told envoys to Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt: 'I am sorry, gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism: I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents.'[105]

"Rejecting Arab, British, and US State Department warnings that Jewish immigration to Palestine and a Jewish state would destabilize the Middle East, Truman and Congress continued to support the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people."

Not always because of Hitler's atrocities, however.

"According to George Lenczowski, Truman's policy on Palestine was influenced by Jewish lobbyists.[108]

"In his memoirs, Truman wrote that top Jewish leaders in the United States put pressure on him to promote Jewish aspirations in Palestine.[109]

"At the urging of the British, a special U.N. committee, UNSCOP, recommended the immediate partitioning of Palestine into two states.

"With Truman's support, the plan was approved by the General Assembly on November 29, 1947.

"Secretary of State George Marshall and foreign affairs experts continued to oppose the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine.[110][111]

"When Truman agreed to meet with Chaim Weizmann, the Secretary of State objected but did not publicly dispute his decision.

"Secretary of Defense James Forrestal warned about the perils of arousing Arab hostility, which might result in denial of access to petroleum resources in the area,[112] and about 'the impact of this question on the security of the United States.'[113]

"Truman recognized the State of Israel on May 14, 1948, eleven minutes after it declared itself a nation."

"The impact of this question on the security of the United States" hasn't been fully absorbed.

Yet.

But the events of 9/11/2001 offer a clue as to what their ultimate magnitude might be.

Harry S. Truman - Wiki

 

[judyd]

I think Truman had a keen sense of fair play and a payoff had nothing to do with it. He also integrated the military services--who would have paid him to do that? He said: "My forebears were Confederates. . . . But my very stomach turned over when I had learned that Negro soldiers, just back from overseas, were being dumped out of Army trucks in Mississippi and beaten."

 

[mdn2000]

Quick, Truman was late in recognizing Israel. Truman should of met with the leaders and supported independence before the declaration. Truman only wished to beat the USSR/Stalin, this was at the beginning of the cold war.

 

[georgephillip]

I think Truman had a keen sense of fair play and a payoff had nothing to do with it. He also integrated the military services--who would have paid him to do that? He said: "My forebears were Confederates. . . . But my very stomach turned over when I had learned that Negro soldiers, just back from overseas, were being dumped out of Army trucks in Mississippi and beaten."

I think you're right about Truman's sense of fair play; however, there was another more pragmatic reason for the integration of the US military and civilian society.

At the dawn of the Cold War African resources loomed large in geopolitics. The Soviets were quick to point out to Africans the glaring hypocrisy of the US claiming to be a "free country" while black vets were being dumped out of trucks and beaten in Mississippi.

It is very difficult for most Americans who weren't alive in the 60s to believe just how racist and self-destructive this society was at that time.

 

[georgephillip]

Quick, Truman was late in recognizing Israel. Truman should of met with the leaders and supported independence before the declaration. Truman only wished to beat the USSR/Stalin, this was at the beginning of the cold war.

I'm not sure when or if the USSR ever recognized Israel? During the Cold War Arabs were more likely to receive Soviet support while the US backed Israel.

Maybe a more relevant to question to consider today is what role the existence of Israel played in the terror attacks of 9/11/01?

 

[P F Tinmore]

It has never been about right or wrong. It is just politics as usual.

 

[georgephillip]

Politics that is always determined by socializing cost and privatizing profit.

"American policy makers in 1947-48 agreed that the highest foreign policy objective was containment of Soviet expansion as the Cold War unfolded.

"From Washington's perspective Palestine was secondary to the goal of protecting the 'Northern Tier' of Greece, Turkey, and Iran from Communism, as promised by the Truman Doctrine.

"Truman set three goals for the region: a peaceful solution, unwillingness to send U.S. troops, and the need to prevent Soviet penetration."

If that $2 million story that JFK told Gore Vidal is true, that suitcase Harry received on his train in 1948 could one day rival in infamy the 30 pieces of silver received by Judas.

And the US will be just as dead as the first Jewish state and Rome.

Harry S. Truman - Wiki

 

[hipeter924]

Quick, Truman was late in recognizing Israel. Truman should of met with the leaders and supported independence before the declaration. Truman only wished to beat the USSR/Stalin, this was at the beginning of the cold war.

I'm not sure when or if the USSR ever recognized Israel? During the Cold War Arabs were more likely to receive Soviet support while the US backed Israel.

Maybe a more relevant to question to consider today is what role the existence of Israel played in the terror attacks of 9/11/01?

You are pathetic there, the Soviets changed policy (Stalin recognized Israel) after Israel started supporting the western powers, they then started a massive anti-semetic hate campaign (built upon the articles of zion conspiracy), much like yours and called Israel a quote "terrorist state", much like you...I wonder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_and_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict

 

[mdn2000]

Quick, Truman was late in recognizing Israel. Truman should of met with the leaders and supported independence before the declaration. Truman only wished to beat the USSR/Stalin, this was at the beginning of the cold war.

I'm not sure when or if the USSR ever recognized Israel? During the Cold War Arabs were more likely to receive Soviet support while the US backed Israel.

Maybe a more relevant to question to consider today is what role the existence of Israel played in the terror attacks of 9/11/01?

Five minutes after Truman. Give or take, it was a race.

What role did Israel play, a major role, I cannot deny that. Still if there was no Israel its difficult to contemplate what would of happened.

We cannot change the past.

We appease the Arabs, what role does that have in 9/11.

Human nature is the same everywhere, it knows no level of education or intelligence. The smartest people in the world can be the worst human beings.

Thugs are thugs, bullies can only be stopped by force, meeting their violence, with equal and overwhelming violence.

How far can we retreat from the tyrants. Do we start with Israel, than who next, where do we stop.

The trouble in the Middle East exists outside of Israel.

Did Egypt attack Yemen because of the Jews, did Iran and Iraq fight a war over Jews, did the Sauds fight the Rasheeds because of the Jews.

Without Israel war will still exist, even more so in the Middle East.

 

[georgephillip]

You've mentioned US "appeasement" of Arabs several times without offering any examples. Do you believe the US serves as an "honest broker for peace" between Arab and Jew? If so, how do you explain the US's and Israel's rejection of the peace proposal offered by Arab states in January of 1976?

"The fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict grinds on without resolution might appear to be rather strange. For many of the world's conflicts, it is difficult even to conjure up a feasible settlement.

"In this case, it is not only possible, but there is near universal agreement on its basic contours: a two-state settlement along the internationally recognized (pre-June 1967) borders -- with 'minor and mutual modifications,' to adopt official U.S. terminology before Washington departed from the international community in the mid-1970s.

"The basic principles have been accepted by virtually the entire world, including the Arab states (who go on to call for full normalization of relations), the Organization of Islamic States (including Iran), and relevant non-state actors (including Hamas).

"A settlement along these lines was first proposed at the U.N. Security Council in January 1976 by the major Arab states.

"Israel refused to attend the session.

"The U.S. vetoed the resolution, and did so again in 1980.

"The record at the General Assembly since is similar."

A Middle East Peace

Thugs, bullies and tyrants often depend on rejection of legitimate peace offerings and arm sales for their economic and diplomatic success.

That seems to be the case with the US and Israel for the last sixty years.

 

[georgephillip]

Quick, Truman was late in recognizing Israel. Truman should of met with the leaders and supported independence before the declaration. Truman only wished to beat the USSR/Stalin, this was at the beginning of the cold war.

I'm not sure when or if the USSR ever recognized Israel? During the Cold War Arabs were more likely to receive Soviet support while the US backed Israel.

Maybe a more relevant to question to consider today is what role the existence of Israel played in the terror attacks of 9/11/01?

You are pathetic there, the Soviets changed policy (Stalin recognized Israel) after Israel started supporting the western powers, they then started a massive anti-semetic hate campaign (built upon the articles of zion conspiracy), much like yours and called Israel a quote "terrorist state", much like you...I wonder.

Soviet Union and the Arab?Israeli conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Soviet Union voted in favor of the 1947 UN Partition Plan (Resolution 181) which paved the way for the creation of the State of Israel.

"Within 11 minutes of Israel's declaration of independence, it was recognized by the United States. The Soviet Union followed soon after, along with most of the other Western powers.[99]

"The Soviet Union and the other communist states of Eastern Europe (with the exception of Romania) cut diplomatic ties with Israel during the Six-Day War.

"Relations were restored in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union, despite the fact that hostile Arab countries such as Syria also maintain close ties with Russia. Russia is known to supply Syria with weapons."

Foreign relations of Israel - Wiki

If your definition of "terrorist" follows a current US Army manual's version as "the calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature (and) this is done through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear", Israel's occupation of Area C and Gaza, not to mention the US's occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, seem identical to the actions of "terrorist states."

Or maybe it's only "terror" when "they" do it?

International Terrorism:

 

[docmauser1]

If your definition of "terrorist" follows a current US Army manual's version as "the calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature (and) this is done through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear", Israel's occupation of Area C and Gaza, not to mention the US's occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, seem identical to the actions of "terrorist states." Or maybe it's only "terror" when "they" do it?

Didn't I mention elsewhere that, quoting Chomskin might lead one into a pit, and was, generally, bad manners? So, what's that our "hero" Chomskin is masturnating about this time?

 

[georgephillip]

"The general point was put accurately enough by a leading diplomatic historian, Gerald Haines, in a recent book, (he is also the senior historian of the CIA).1

"He observes that after WWII the United States 'assumed, out of self-interest, responsibility for the welfare of the world capitalist system,' which is a fair enough formula, but to understand it we have to carry out a few translations.

"The first is that the word 'capitalist' doesn't mean capitalist.

"' Rather, what it refers to is state-subsidized and protected private power centres "collectivist legal entities," as they are called by legal historians, internally tyrannical, unaccountable to the public, granted extraordinary rights by US courts in radical violation of classical liberal ideals.

"'That's why the corporatisation of America, as it's called, early in this century was bitterly condemned by conservatives, a breed that has since vanished, aside from the name.

"'The corporatisation was condemned as "a form of communism," a return to "feudalistic" structures, and not without reason. Progressive intellectuals, who generally supported the process, gave a rather similar assessment.

"'One of the leading ones, Woodrow Wilson, wrote that "most men are servants of corporations," which now account for the "greater part of the business of the country." It is "a very different America from the old, . .. . no longer a scene of individual enterprise,. . . individual opportunity and individual achievement."

"In the new America, "small groups of men in control of great corporations wield a power and control over the wealth and business opportunities of the country," becoming "rivals of the government itself.'"

Power in the Global Arena

 

[docmauser1]

"The general point was put accurately enough by a leading diplomatic historian, Gerald Haines, in a recent book, (he is also the senior historian of the CIA).

And the hamas gang-rape victim, no doubt.

 

[georgephillip]

Still bitter?

See if this helps clear your mind:

"More accurately, these corporations were casting over society the shadow that we call politics, as John Dewey put it a little later, making obvious points about the extreme limitations on democracy when 'the life of the country', the production and information systems and so on, are ruled by private tyrannies, in a system that he described as industrial 'feudalism' -- the contemporary system."

Possibly you and Hamas have more in common than simple lust?

Power in the Global Arena

 

[hipeter924]

I'm not sure when or if the USSR ever recognized Israel? During the Cold War Arabs were more likely to receive Soviet support while the US backed Israel.

Maybe a more relevant to question to consider today is what role the existence of Israel played in the terror attacks of 9/11/01?

You are pathetic there, the Soviets changed policy (Stalin recognized Israel) after Israel started supporting the western powers, they then started a massive anti-semetic hate campaign (built upon the articles of zion conspiracy), much like yours and called Israel a quote "terrorist state", much like you...I wonder.

Soviet Union and the Arab?Israeli conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Soviet Union voted in favor of the 1947 UN Partition Plan (Resolution 181) which paved the way for the creation of the State of Israel.

"Within 11 minutes of Israel's declaration of independence, it was recognized by the United States. The Soviet Union followed soon after, along with most of the other Western powers.[99]

"The Soviet Union and the other communist states of Eastern Europe (with the exception of Romania) cut diplomatic ties with Israel during the Six-Day War.

"Relations were restored in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union, despite the fact that hostile Arab countries such as Syria also maintain close ties with Russia. Russia is known to supply Syria with weapons."

Foreign relations of Israel - Wiki

If your definition of "terrorist" follows a current US Army manual's version as "the calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature (and) this is done through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear", Israel's occupation of Area C and Gaza, not to mention the US's occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, seem identical to the actions of "terrorist states."

Or maybe it's only "terror" when "they" do it?

International Terrorism:

Rewriting the definition so Hamas are okay, 'freedom fighters', and a 'humanitarian aid organization' like I didn't see that coming.

 

[mdn2000]

You've mentioned US "appeasement" of Arabs several times without offering any examples. Do you believe the US serves as an "honest broker for peace" between Arab and Jew? If so, how do you explain the US's and Israel's rejection of the peace proposal offered by Arab states in January of 1976?

"The fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict grinds on without resolution might appear to be rather strange. For many of the world's conflicts, it is difficult even to conjure up a feasible settlement.

"In this case, it is not only possible, but there is near universal agreement on its basic contours: a two-state settlement along the internationally recognized (pre-June 1967) borders -- with 'minor and mutual modifications,' to adopt official U.S. terminology before Washington departed from the international community in the mid-1970s.

"The basic principles have been accepted by virtually the entire world, including the Arab states (who go on to call for full normalization of relations), the Organization of Islamic States (including Iran), and relevant non-state actors (including Hamas).

"A settlement along these lines was first proposed at the U.N. Security Council in January 1976 by the major Arab states.

"Israel refused to attend the session.

"The U.S. vetoed the resolution, and did so again in 1980.

"The record at the General Assembly since is similar."

A Middle East Peace

Thugs, bullies and tyrants often depend on rejection of legitimate peace offerings and arm sales for their economic and diplomatic success.

That seems to be the case with the US and Israel for the last sixty years.

Appeasement of the Arabs, specific examples, I guess I cant, its just something I though up. Just kidding, yea, I can give examples, I can site policy.

Knowing your ideas come from Chomsky helps, I see he is quoted in the post I am responding to. I must respond and prove Chomsky's opinion is wrong. The internet is littered with people who have already done this. Cut/Paste/Link, to easy.

What is more interesting is what makes you think Chomsky's views are true. What have you done to educate yourself. Can you recommend books that you have read or use or is it all Chomsky.

No room in the Middle East for the Jews, Israel is a tiny island, Arabs all around, after the fall of the Ottoman empire the world literally gave states to Arab tribes, Arab families, states or nations that never existed. Not enough though, everything must be Arab.

We appease Saudi Arabia, we tell Israel to give a country to Arabs because that is what Saudi Arabia demands. If it was not for oil most likely we would tell the Arabs to step into at least the 19th century. If it was not for oil we would warn the Arabs that the murder stops, we would tell the Arabs to free the woman, we would stop the child rape, end the human rights violations of the Arabs.

Chomsky, seriously, your whole basis of argument is Chomsky, its almost boring.

 

[georgephillip]

"If it was not for oil we would warn the Arabs that the murder stops"????

How many innocent human beings has the US military murdered since 1945?
How many Koreans, Cambodians, Laotians, Vietnamese?
How many more civilians have our proxies killed in Central and South America?
Most importantly...who gets rich from the killing?

Hint: It's not Chomsky

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

No room in the Middle East for the Jews, Israel is a tiny island, Arabs all around, after the fall of the Ottoman empire the world literally gave states to Arab tribes, Arab families, states or nations that never existed. Not enough though, everything must be Arab.

Thats a ridiculous statement, its the kind of statement only Israel supporters could get away with.

Jews lived in the ME prior to 1948. The 'world' didnt give anything to the Arabs, those people already lived there. All the imperialists did was to draw a few lines on a map, something they probably had no business doing anyway.