Get rid of 2 party system ???

[Annie]

Or people actually paying attention to what the politicians are saying and doing? Then voting accordingly.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Have fun with that. At best, you'll eliminate one letter and stick another one in there.

That's your recourse. You don't havwe to like it - but there it is.
There no legal way to force a 3+ party system.

Exactly, without fundamentally changing our system of government, there is no way to create a 3+ party system.

Deal with it.

Aside from the fact that you're wrong...
-I'm- not the one whining about the 2-party system.
But, then -I- understand that once the people decide to do somethng about it, it will be done. Nothing in the current system necessitates 2 prominent parties; nothing in the current system prevents 3+ prominent parties.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You didnt answer the question.
Why would we "have" to do that?
That is, why is your proposal the only way to germinate a 3+ party system; why is there no other way such a system could come about absent the implementation of your proposal?
If is so simple, you should then have no issue explaining these things.

Sorry, I thought it was that simple.
We would have to do that because our constitution creates a two party system due to the "winner takes all nature of politics".

Show how this is the case. I'm more than familair with the document and I dont see anything in it that does anything like what you mention here.

I realize that there is nothing in the constitution about political parties and Washington abhored them, but it's irrelevant.

Son, read what you wrote here, and then read what you wrote in the above quote.
You're contradicting yourself.

The only alternative is a parliamentary system of government.

How is this the "only" alternative?
How will such a system -necessarily- create a 3+ party environment
Why is a 3+ party environment impossible under our current system?

So far you're making (and repeating) a lot of assertions and doing nothing to support them.

Nothing in our electoral process precludes 3+ parties with representation in any given legislative body,

It certainly does.

Specifically, how?

nor does it necessitate that there will only ever be two dominant parties.

It doesn't necessitate two parties, but it still creates them.

Again, between this line and the above, you're contradicting yourself.

You're really going to have to do a LOT better than this.

 

[Anachronism]

Amended to: "Good luck with the whole chucking the constitution thing".

I think our system works fine. Clunky at times, but no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Our system isn't in the same Universe as "fine". It hasn't been in over 150 years. Not only do we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, we need to throw out the tub, the sink, the toilet, and the washing machine at the same time.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Your recourse? Get busy organizing/supporting a party that creates a viable alternative to the R and D.

No. My recourse is to suggest that we should get rid of ALL political parties.

This simply cannot happen.
People have the right to freely associate with whomever they wish, for any legal purpose.
That includes political parties, for the purpose of electing their candidates and advancing their political agenda.

Exactly. That's why we need to blow the whole system up and start again from scratch.

:roll:
Let us know when the convention starts.

 

[Anachronism]

Let us know when the convention starts.

When it starts, you'll definitely know about it. It will be all over the news. Just like Tripoli and Egypt have been. Except with more gunfire and flames.

 

[geauxtohell]

That's your recourse. You don't havwe to like it - but there it is.
There no legal way to force a 3+ party system.

Exactly, without fundamentally changing our system of government, there is no way to create a 3+ party system.

Deal with it.

Aside from the fact that you're wrong...
-I'm- not the one whining about the 2-party system.
But, then -I- understand that once the people decide to do somethng about it, it will be done. Nothing in the current system necessitates 2 prominent parties; nothing in the current system prevents 3+ prominent parties.

I am certainly not whining about the two party system. It is what it is. I recognize why third parties aren't viable in this country.

I suppose I could try and spell out "winner takes all" yet again, but at this point I am only left with recommended you exercise your library card.

The party system isn't enumerated in the Constitution. Legally there is not requirement or hurdle to 2, 4, or 10 viable parties. It's the way our election system is set up that slants the process towards two parties.

Again, you can look at our own history if you doubt this.

 

[geauxtohell]

Let us know when the convention starts.

When it starts, you'll definitely know about it. It will be all over the news. Just like Tripoli and Egypt have been. Except with more gunfire and flames.

Good luck with that. When the bullets really start flying, you are going to need more than an "ignore list" to win.

Considering the realities of other countries, I fail to see what is so wrong with this country that we have to start from the beginning.

Perhaps you could enlighten me to the perceived problems.

 

[Charles_Main]

As long as were a country with 2 reining parties, were never going to get anywhere. It will continue to be Tit 4 Tat. We need something more like a 5 party system, to mix it up a little, so that we can move forward.

Members of both parties will just continue to toe the party line, you know it, and I know it.

"A HOUSE DIVIDED CANNOT STAND"

A five party system would be better for the USA because of all the diverse people and cultures. Either we are, or were not, the melting pot of the world.

While I agree fully that more parties would be better. What do you mean Eliminate the 2 party system. Any addition of New parties or ending of Old parties, must come naturally, and not because of some law or something. If not what you have is no longer an actual Democracy.

 

[Charles_Main]

Let us know when the convention starts.

When it starts, you'll definitely know about it. It will be all over the news. Just like Tripoli and Egypt have been. Except with more gunfire and flames.

Good luck with that. When the bullets really start flying, you are going to need more than an "ignore list" to win.

Considering the realities of other countries, I fail to see what is so wrong with this country that we have to start from the beginning.

Perhaps you could enlighten me to the perceived problems.

I agree, we have some issues which need addressing, But this is still the greatest System on earth. No need to scrap it and start over.

The single biggest thing Americans could do to effect change, is simply to get involved.

Having less than 50% of people even Vote is a shame. We can do better.

 

[Anachronism]

Good luck with that. When the bullets really start flying, you are going to need more than an "ignore list" to win.

True. That's why I spend several evenings/mornings a month at the shooting range. That's why I have trained with hand-to-hand combat weapons and why I spend parts of 4-5 days a week at the gym.

Considering the realities of other countries, I fail to see what is so wrong with this country that we have to start from the beginning.

Perhaps you could enlighten me to the perceived problems.

Let's see if I can do just that.....

I actually have to agree with you that there isn't anywhere out there that is perfect. Hell, most places are far worse than the United States is at this point. There are other places that have some of the things we have wrong, right; but nowhere that has it all right, including here.

The main problem being that we have allowed the foundation on which this country was built to erode. This country was built on a foundation of morals, values, and personal responsibility. Without those three things, the entire concept of our governmental system and our society stop working (as we can see on a daily basis).

However, our founders were naive men. They believed that those ideals were intrinsic in the people and that they didn't need to be specifically enumerated and discussed in the documents they put forward at this country's beginning. This left a major loophole in the system.

Then came along a tall, thin, bearded lawyer from Springfield, Illinois. He carried those founding documents out to the outhouse behind 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and used them as toilet paper before ignoring most everything that had been written on them.

Mr. Lincoln may have freed the slaves from their plantations but he enslaved the entirety of The States and The People to the Federal Government. He also provided the background for all of the other numerous desecrations of the US Constitution that have gone on over the last 150 years.

For a century and a half now, the US Constitution has been abused, eviscerated, ignored, and generally spat and shat upon by the entire Federal Government in every way possible. Hell, we now debate whether it was intended to be a "living" document as a means to ignore its most basic precepts and ideals. Those noble but infinitely naive men who gave us the document never foresaw the lack of morals, values and basic personal responsibility which now ravage this nation.

To that end, the US Constitution no longer really serves any purpose. Its wording is antiquated, its ideals and values have been thrown away, and its very existance is almost laughed at by most in Government and even more of the Citizenry. It is unfortunate to say, but it has ceased to have a usefullness in attempting to right the ship that is this nation before we go under entirely.

 

[geauxtohell]

When it starts, you'll definitely know about it. It will be all over the news. Just like Tripoli and Egypt have been. Except with more gunfire and flames.

Good luck with that. When the bullets really start flying, you are going to need more than an "ignore list" to win.

Considering the realities of other countries, I fail to see what is so wrong with this country that we have to start from the beginning.

Perhaps you could enlighten me to the perceived problems.

I agree, we have some issues which need addressing, But this is still the greatest System on earth. No need to scrap it and start over.

The single biggest thing Americans could do to effect change, is simply to get involved.

Having less than 50% of people even Vote is a shame. We can do better.

Can't argue with that.

 

[geauxtohell]

True. That's why I spend several evenings/mornings a month at the shooting range. That's why I have trained with hand-to-hand combat weapons and why I spend parts of 4-5 days a week at the gym.

Chuck Norris will still smite you with his holy beard.

Let's see if I can do just that.....

I actually have to agree with you that there isn't anywhere out there that is perfect. Hell, most places are far worse than the United States is at this point. There are other places that have some of the things we have wrong, right; but nowhere that has it all right, including here.

The main problem being that we have allowed the foundation on which this country was built to erode. This country was built on a foundation of morals, values, and personal responsibility. Without those three things, the entire concept of our governmental system and our society stop working (as we can see on a daily basis).

However, our founders were naive men. They believed that those ideals were intrinsic in the people and that they didn't need to be specifically enumerated and discussed in the documents they put forward at this country's beginning. This left a major loophole in the system.

Then came along a tall, thin, bearded lawyer from Springfield, Illinois. He carried those founding documents out to the outhouse behind 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and used them as toilet paper before ignoring most everything that had been written on them.

Mr. Lincoln may have freed the slaves from their plantations but he enslaved the entirety of The States and The People to the Federal Government. He also provided the background for all of the other numerous desecrations of the US Constitution that have gone on over the last 150 years.

For a century and a half now, the US Constitution has been abused, eviscerated, ignored, and generally spat and shat upon by the entire Federal Government in every way possible. Hell, we now debate whether it was intended to be a "living" document as a means to ignore its most basic precepts and ideals. Those noble but infinitely naive men who gave us the document never foresaw the lack of morals, values and basic personal responsibility which now ravage this nation.

To that end, the US Constitution no longer really serves any purpose. Its wording is antiquated, its ideals and values have been thrown away, and its very existance is almost laughed at by most in Government and even more of the Citizenry. It is unfortunate to say, but it has ceased to have a usefullness in attempting to right the ship that is this nation before we go under entirely.

So you are a right-wing bomb thrower. The fact that society functions on a day to day basis and that we have a bloodless coups every few years means our system works fine.

We aren't perfect, but we are nowhere near the hellhole you would have us believe we are. I'll agree we took a massive sing towards federalism after the civil war. It was necessary as we progressed from an agrarian to urban society.

 

[Anachronism]

The fact that society functions on a day to day basis and that we have a bloodless coups every few years means our system works fine.

No it does not. We don't have a "bloodless coup" every few years. We simply have the stage manager announce that tonight's Leading Role in the comedy/tragedy known as The United States of America will be played by...... for the next four years. There is ZERO difference between the lines, the acting, and the results regardless of which worthless bag of trash sits in the White House.

The system is NOT working fine. We have illegal immigrants crawling around like roaches. We have an economy that is totally in the tank. Our JUSTICE system has ceased to exist. Morals, Values, Basic Decency, Common Sense, and Personal Responsibility are all things of the past.

We aren't perfect, but we are nowhere near the hellhole you would have us believe we are. I'll agree we took a massive sing towards federalism after the civil war. It was necessary as we progressed from an agrarian to urban society.

Personally, if it requires an agrarian society to bring this country back to what it was intended to be, then evacuate and burn every city with more than 50,000 residents to the ground.

 

[geauxtohell]

No it does not. We don't have a "bloodless coup" every few years. We simply have the stage manager announce that tonight's Leading Role in the comedy/tragedy known as The United States of America will be played by...... for the next four years. There is ZERO difference between the lines, the acting, and the results regardless of which worthless bag of trash sits in the White House.

The system is NOT working fine. We have illegal immigrants crawling around like roaches. We have an economy that is totally in the tank. Our JUSTICE system has ceased to exist. Morals, Values, Basic Decency, Common Sense, and Personal Responsibility are all things of the past.

I guess I should have said the system works fine if you aren't utterly histrionic.

Good luck with the revolution though. It was a lopsided fight in 1860 when the average citizen could match the average federal infantryman in firepower.

I am sure it will all be different this time though.

Personally, if it requires an agrarian society to bring this country back to what it was intended to be, then evacuate and burn every city with more than 50,000 residents to the ground.

Yeah, I don't think our government is the problem here.

 

[Anachronism]

I guess I should have said the system works fine if you aren't utterly histrionic.

I know it isn't fashionable or common anymore, but some of us do actually believe in certain things sufficiently to put them in front of our own happiness. I understand that's not the accepted way to do things anymore, but some of us harken back to a BETTER DAY in certain ways.

Good luck with the revolution though. It was a lopsided fight in 1860 when the average citizen could match the average federal infantryman in firepower.

I am sure it will all be different this time though.

It will be better to be DEAD than to live in what I believe this country will be in another 5-10 years.

Yeah, I don't think our government is the problem here.

Then you ARE part of the problem so far as I am concerned.

 

[geauxtohell]

I know it isn't fashionable or common anymore, but some of us do actually believe in certain things sufficiently to put them in front of our own happiness. I understand that's not the accepted way to do things anymore, but some of us harken back to a BETTER DAY in certain ways.

What was better about it? Nostalgia is largely a man created event.

It will be better to be DEAD than to live in what I believe this country will be in another 5-10 years.

Or you could just go somewhere else. I don't like the "love it or leave it" mentality but when death is a more viable option, it's probably time to change your zip code.

I am sure the rest of us will be just fine.

Then you ARE part of the problem so far as I am concerned.

I was just about to get all teary eyed about your hearkening back to a more simple time and prattling on about morality.

Now you tell me you want to burn people out of their houses and force people to farm?

Have you actually ever farmed? I mean real farming? It kind of sucks. There is a reason that people leave agrarian society behind and move to the cities.

 

[Annie]

The fact that society functions on a day to day basis and that we have a bloodless coups every few years means our system works fine.

No it does not. We don't have a "bloodless coup" every few years. We simply have the stage manager announce that tonight's Leading Role in the comedy/tragedy known as The United States of America will be played by...... for the next four years. There is ZERO difference between the lines, the acting, and the results regardless of which worthless bag of trash sits in the White House.

The system is NOT working fine. We have illegal immigrants crawling around like roaches. We have an economy that is totally in the tank. Our JUSTICE system has ceased to exist. Morals, Values, Basic Decency, Common Sense, and Personal Responsibility are all things of the past.

We aren't perfect, but we are nowhere near the hellhole you would have us believe we are. I'll agree we took a massive sing towards federalism after the civil war. It was necessary as we progressed from an agrarian to urban society.

Personally, if it requires an agrarian society to bring this country back to what it was intended to be, then evacuate and burn every city with more than 50,000 residents to the ground.

Wow. Jefferson bemoaned the loss of agrarian society, while the vast majority were still farmers. However, he never wanted the current system to move back to medieval times. He was right happy with eyeglasses and other new technologies of the day. In fact, he invented many himself.

He was for individuals being free, (in spite of his contradictory relations with the peculiar institution.)

You are not for founding principles here, you are for a state of nature. No thank you.

 

[Anachronism]

What was better about it? Nostalgia is largely a man created event.

What WASN'T better about it? Honestly, I can't find a whole lot that I would actually miss about this day and age if I could go back. I say that as someone who would likely not have survived to age 5 in the time period I prefer, due to personal medical issues.

Or you could just go somewhere else. I don't like the "love it or leave it" mentality but when death is a more viable option, it's probably time to change your zip code.

I'm trying to do that, but it's simply a matter of finding the "least bad" place to be. There really isn't anywhere that "good" so far as I can see.

I am sure the rest of us will be just fine.

I couldn't care any less about what happens to the rest of you.

I was just about to get all teary eyed about your hearkening back to a more simple time and prattling on about morality.

Sarcasm doesn't look good on you.

Now you tell me you want to burn people out of their houses and force people to farm?

If that's what it takes to fix the country, you're darn right.

Have you actually ever farmed? I mean real farming? It kind of sucks. There is a reason that people leave agrarian society behind and move to the cities.

Actually I have family members who do make a living farming, so I am well aware of what it takes. How it's a seven day a week job with 14-16 hour days most of the time. IF there was a way to move to the urban society and maintain the morals, values, and ideals that generally only exist in the agrarian society, I'd be fine with it. However, that does not appear to be possible.

 

[Anachronism]

Wow. Jefferson bemoaned the loss of agrarian society, while the vast majority were still farmers. However, he never wanted the current system to move back to medieval times. He was right happy with eyeglasses and other new technologies of the day. In fact, he invented many himself.

I have no problem with new technologies and the like.... SO LONG AS THEY DO NOT IMPEDE THE CONTINUED EXISTANCE AND PREVAILANCE OF THE MORALS, VALUES THIS COUNTRY NEEDS TO RETURN TO A PROPER SOCIETY. The problem is that we do not take those morals and values into account when we allow these new technologies and ideas into society.

You are not for founding principles here, you are for a state of nature. No thank you.

No, I'm for RIGHT over WRONG. Period. It's literally that simple in my mind.