CDZ Freedom vs. Civilization

[Two Thumbs]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

I didnt say that government existed before we had any form of civilization. Are you just asking or are you making the implication I did say that?

BTW yes a chief and medicine man would be a form of government and civilization.

The absurdity needed to qualify a chief as government simply boggles the mind

 

[Asclepias]

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

That would be a form of government, crude and rudimentary as it is.

alpha male status can only be achieved if a group exist.

and that's really absurd, I was joking that a chief and medicine man was government

How is that absurd? The chief would provide the laws concerning conduct of eveyday life and the medicine man would provide laws concerning religion.

It all comes down to how you define "government" and "civilization". The definitions of those terms are not all that clear.

Certainly when any group of people agree to abide by the decisions of a subset of the population that can be called "government".

"Civilization" is a more difficult concept to define. To me, civilization implies that a group of people have formed a stable community that has persisted through multiple generations and has maintained a common set of guidelines that is used to govern the community that those people have formed. It also implies that this group of people have created a persistent culture represented by the creation of persistent artifacts. Both of these types of persistence require a reliable source of food so it seems to me that farming is a prerequisite to any civilization.

You can have all of those prerequisites without farming. You dont need to farm to have a reliable food source. Food plants didnt come from thin air. They were domesticated from the wild. Just like other animals eat whatever greenery and roots that are in season so did early man. Man of course also learned to preserve meat and render fat to eat during winter

 

[Asclepias]

Typically, the term civilization has meant the use of written laws by a society. Usually it corresponded with the agricultural revolution and the sort of ordered society that maximized it's potential.

Who made this up? The dictionary says something else.

the definition of civilization

noun
1.
an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture,science, industry, and government has been reached.

 

[Asclepias]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

I didnt say that government existed before we had any form of civilization. Are you just asking or are you making the implication I did say that?

BTW yes a chief and medicine man would be a form of government and civilization.

The absurdity needed to qualify a chief as government simply boggles the mind

Explain what is absurd about it? You dont think simply you saying its absurd means it actually is do you?

 

[anotherlife]

At the one extreme, is the state of solitary individual banished to the wilderness. On the other extreme, there is the nameless cog in the authoritarian machine. Where do we find the sweet-spot between the two?

It is technology that moves society slowly from the former one to the later. The medieval church tried to stop it but unsuccessful, because of population demography. Basically, the more people are born, the faster technology converts people from individual hunters into remote controlled ants.

 

[SingleVoyce]

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

That would be a form of government, crude and rudimentary as it is.

alpha male status can only be achieved if a group exist.

and that's really absurd, I was joking that a chief and medicine man was government

How is that absurd? The chief would provide the laws concerning conduct of eveyday life and the medicine man would provide laws concerning religion.

It all comes down to how you define "government" and "civilization". The definitions of those terms are not all that clear.

Certainly when any group of people agree to abide by the decisions of a subset of the population that can be called "government".

"Civilization" is a more difficult concept to define. To me, civilization implies that a group of people have formed a stable community that has persisted through multiple generations and has maintained a common set of guidelines that is used to govern the community that those people have formed. It also implies that this group of people have created a persistent culture represented by the creation of persistent artifacts. Both of these types of persistence require a reliable source of food so it seems to me that farming is a prerequisite to any civilization.

You can have all of those prerequisites without farming. You dont need to farm to have a reliable food source. Food plants didnt come from thin air. They were domesticated from the wild. Just like other animals eat whatever greenery and roots that are in season so did early man. Man of course also learned to preserve meat and render fat to eat during winter

I suppose that's possible but not very likely. We don't really have any evidence of what the earliest civilizations were like but it seems to me that a certain minimal population is required in order for a societal unit to qualify as a civilization and it would be difficult for a large population to exist in a limited geographical area on naturally occurring food alone.

According to the short article linked below, farming came into existence almost 12000 years ago.

The Development of Agriculture

 

[TNHarley]

Individual liberty is the only way to go. Educate them, and good things will follow. FORCING people to adhere to things in which they do not agree, is NOT the way to solve ANYTHING.
Conformity is bullshit.
freedom vs civilization is a fallacious debate topic. Who said you can only have one? The totalitarians?

 

[Asclepias]

That would be a form of government, crude and rudimentary as it is.

alpha male status can only be achieved if a group exist.

and that's really absurd, I was joking that a chief and medicine man was government

How is that absurd? The chief would provide the laws concerning conduct of eveyday life and the medicine man would provide laws concerning religion.

It all comes down to how you define "government" and "civilization". The definitions of those terms are not all that clear.

Certainly when any group of people agree to abide by the decisions of a subset of the population that can be called "government".

"Civilization" is a more difficult concept to define. To me, civilization implies that a group of people have formed a stable community that has persisted through multiple generations and has maintained a common set of guidelines that is used to govern the community that those people have formed. It also implies that this group of people have created a persistent culture represented by the creation of persistent artifacts. Both of these types of persistence require a reliable source of food so it seems to me that farming is a prerequisite to any civilization.

You can have all of those prerequisites without farming. You dont need to farm to have a reliable food source. Food plants didnt come from thin air. They were domesticated from the wild. Just like other animals eat whatever greenery and roots that are in season so did early man. Man of course also learned to preserve meat and render fat to eat during winter

I suppose that's possible but not very likely. We don't really have any evidence of what the earliest civilizations were like but it seems to me that a certain minimal population is required in order for a societal unit to qualify as a civilization and it would be difficult for a large population to exist in a limited geographical area on naturally occurring food alone.

According to the short article linked below, farming came into existence almost 12000 years ago.

The Development of Agriculture

I would agree a certain minimal population is required but that minimum would most certainly be 3 or more. It wouldnt be difficult at all for a large (depending on what you consider large) population of hunter, gatherers to exist anywhere. I dont take much stock in papers that claim to be able to pinpoint when certain events came into being. No one is going to convince me that early humans didnt notice that seeds grow into food producing plants. Thats not really a complicated procedure. I'm sure some type of farming has always been around at least since man tamed fire.

 

[anotherlife]

If you give total freedom to individual thought, then half the people would choose looting before producing. This is the excuse of communists.