CDZ Freedom vs. Civilization

[Skull Pilot]

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There were state taxes, as well as a massive tariff. And there were not many roads back then. Nor were there modern universities.

No there were just schools like Harvard and Yale and no state colleges with majors in underwater basket weaving or gender studies

 

[Mac1958]

At the one extreme, is the state of solitary individual banished to the wilderness. On the other extreme, there is the nameless cog in the authoritarian machine. Where do we find the sweet-spot between the two?

It's just a matter of finding a point of equilibrium, which would require sober, humble, thoughtful cooperation.

Not a high priority right now, sadly.
.

 

[Elvis Obama]

I agree that we're close to the sweet spot...The liberterians want to take us to the hunter gathering extreme.

Sure, in some areas like police and spying we're slightly on the other side of the sweet spot, but I wouldn't change much beside getting money out of politics and enforcing the anti-trust laws on the books.

so you think only the government can provide civilization and w/o it we are living in caves.

Uh, yeah. What in the world do you think civilization is?

people working together to survive

being ordered about is what government brang.

That's an absurd definition of civilization. Two cavemen working together to bring down an aurochs is people working together to survive. It is not civilization. The best definition of civilization I ever read was "the art of living in cities". There has never been a city without government.

 

[Two Thumbs]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

So, somebody scratching in the ground and planting a seed is what qualifies as civilization in your world view?

Here's Webster's definition of civilization:

the condition that exists when people have developed effective ways of organizing a society and care about art, science, etc.

Obviously, you have made up your own. Could you share it with us?

So there's no mention of government in that definition

thanks, that's all I needed, you proved yourself wrong

 

[SingleVoyce]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

So, somebody scratching in the ground and planting a seed is what qualifies as civilization in your world view?

Here's Webster's definition of civilization:

the condition that exists when people have developed effective ways of organizing a society and care about art, science, etc.

Obviously, you have made up your own. Could you share it with us?

So there's no mention of government in that definition

thanks, that's all I needed, you proved yourself wrong

"effective ways of organizing a society" = government

 

[Holos]

This thread does not seem like it belongs to the Clean Debate Zone. If anything it would be leaning towards a jokester version of Chemical Ethnic Cleansing (which is actually a very serious matter and I doubt the initiating OP would be capable of indulging in its bygone history without making the temptation and mistake to entertain the past circumstances as their own dreadful future, even as the initiating OP self dissociates by whatever measure found convenient).

I am only stating this because I am new to the forum and haven't gotten the habit to make reports yet. Next time it is the mods and admins to decide if my time is worth debating here. I have no need to cause dissent.

 

[AVG-JOE]

This thread does not seem like it belongs to the Clean Debate Zone. If anything it would be leaning towards a jokester version of Chemical Ethnic Cleansing (which is actually a very serious matter and I doubt the initiating OP would be capable of indulging in its bygone history without making the temptation and mistake to entertain the past circumstances as their own dreadful future, even as the initiating OP self dissociates by whatever measure found convenient).

I am only stating this because I am new to the forum and haven't gotten the habit to make reports yet. Next time it is the mods and admins to decide if my time is worth debating here. I have no need to cause dissent.

Just because the subject of a thread is controversial doesn't mean that y'all can't discuss it like grown-ups.

Carry on.

 

[Asclepias]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

 

[I amso IR]

Individual liberty is rapidly being lost as the central gov continues to grow...a government that has proven itself ineffective, corrupt, and unbelievably expensive. Unlimited gov always fails ultimately, but few Americans today know this fundamental truth.

Only a few Americans read the Constitution, and since it is no longer taught in civic's classes that is understandable. Now why, do you suppose the liberal faction fought so hard to have it removed? Years one through seven are very important in terms of education and insight.

 

[gipper]

Individual liberty is rapidly being lost as the central gov continues to grow...a government that has proven itself ineffective, corrupt, and unbelievably expensive. Unlimited gov always fails ultimately, but few Americans today know this fundamental truth.

Only a few Americans read the Constitution, and since it is no longer taught in civic's classes that is understandable. Now why, do you suppose the liberal faction fought so hard to have it removed? Years one through seven are very important in terms of education and insight.

Yes many Americans know little of the Constitution. This allows corrupt politicians to get away with ignoring it and doing as they wish. The Constitution is of little use any more, since the elites and pols refuse to be controlled by it and the people do nothing about it. We have rule by small elite today, which means we are ruled by the whims of stinking lying corrupt pols.

Many foolish Americans believe the Constitution is a 'living document.' This in effect means, the elites can make the Constitution do whatever they want it to.

 

[Two Thumbs]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

 

[oldsoul]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

That would be a form of government, crude and rudimentary as it is.

 

[Two Thumbs]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

That would be a form of government, crude and rudimentary as it is.

alpha male status can only be achieved if a group exist.

and that's really absurd, I was joking that a chief and medicine man was government

 

[oldsoul]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

That would be a form of government, crude and rudimentary as it is.

alpha male status can only be achieved if a group exist.

and that's really absurd, I was joking that a chief and medicine man was government

Joking or not, it is an early form of government, You have the executive (chief) who is a dictator of sorts, and a judicial (medicine man, or religious leader), what more does one need to call it a government?

 

[gipper]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

That would be a form of government, crude and rudimentary as it is.

Government is still crude and rudimentary, but now it is also extraordinarily murderous, unjust, and inefficient.

 

[Asclepias]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

I didnt say that government existed before we had any form of civilization. Are you just asking or are you making the implication I did say that?

BTW yes a chief and medicine man would be a form of government and civilization.

 

[Asclepias]

I must have missed that particular history lesson. When was there a civilization with no government?

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

That would be a form of government, crude and rudimentary as it is.

alpha male status can only be achieved if a group exist.

and that's really absurd, I was joking that a chief and medicine man was government

How is that absurd? The chief would provide the laws concerning conduct of eveyday life and the medicine man would provide laws concerning religion.

 

[SingleVoyce]

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

That would be a form of government, crude and rudimentary as it is.

alpha male status can only be achieved if a group exist.

and that's really absurd, I was joking that a chief and medicine man was government

How is that absurd? The chief would provide the laws concerning conduct of eveyday life and the medicine man would provide laws concerning religion.

It all comes down to how you define "government" and "civilization". The definitions of those terms are not all that clear.

Certainly when any group of people agree to abide by the decisions of a subset of the population that can be called "government".

"Civilization" is a more difficult concept to define. To me, civilization implies that a group of people have formed a stable community that has persisted through multiple generations and has maintained a common set of guidelines that is used to govern the community that those people have formed. It also implies that this group of people have created a persistent culture represented by the creation of persistent artifacts. Both of these types of persistence require a reliable source of food so it seems to me that farming is a prerequisite to any civilization.

 

[Agit8r]

Typically, the term civilization has meant the use of written laws by a society. Usually it corresponded with the agricultural revolution and the sort of ordered society that maximized it's potential.

 

[Two Thumbs]

shortly after we invented farms

You do realize that civilization and government existed long before man begin to farm dont you?

government existed before we had any form of civilization?

if by government you mean a chief and a medicine man.....

That would be a form of government, crude and rudimentary as it is.

alpha male status can only be achieved if a group exist.

and that's really absurd, I was joking that a chief and medicine man was government

Joking or not, it is an early form of government, You have the executive (chief) who is a dictator of sorts, and a judicial (medicine man, or religious leader), what more does one need to call it a government?

No one I can put a spear into is a dictator

good lord, the desperation to prove we need big government to help us...