Free Saddam

[Annie]

corrected url

From the International Red Cross, do gooders extraordinaire:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1238263,00.html

Red Cross ultimatum to US on Saddam

Release him, charge him or break international law, Bush told

Jonathan Steele in Baghdad
Monday June 14, 2004
The Guardian

Saddam Hussein must either be released from custody by June 30 or charged if the US and the new Iraqi government are to conform to international law, the International Committee of the Red Cross said last night.
Nada Doumani, a spokeswoman for the ICRC, told the Guardian: "The United States defines Saddam Hussein as a prisoner of war. At the end of an occupation PoWs have to be released provided they have no penal charges against them."

Her comments came as the international body, the only independent group with access to detainees in US custody, becomes increasingly concerned over the legal limbo in which thousands of people are being held in the run-up to the transfer of power at the end of the month.

The occupation officially ends on June 30 and US forces will be in Iraq at the invitation of its sovereign government.

"There are all these people kept in a legal vacuum. No one should be left not knowing their legal status. Their judicial rights must be assured," Ms Doumani said.

MORE ONLINE

 

[Annie]

The above seemed to call for something, here it is. How un-PC:

WHEN THAT MAN IS DEAD AND GONE (Irving Berlin) Al Bowlly - 1941

When that man is dead and gone
When that man is dead and gone
We’ll go dancing down the street
Kissing everyone we meet
When that man is dead and gone

What a day to wake up on
What a way to greet the dawn
Some fine day the news’ll flash
Satan with a small moustache
Is asleep beneath the lawn
When that man is dead and gone

Satan, Satan, thought up a plan
Dressed as a man
Walking the earth and since he began
The world is hell for you and me
But what a heaven it will be

When that man is dead and gone
When that man is dead and gone
When they lay him twelve feet deep
I’ll be there to laugh, not weep
When that man is dead and gone

What a day to wake up on
What a way to greet the dawn
Satan’ll take him by the hand
To meet old Gerring, look what, man
When that man is dead and gone
When that man is dead and gone

Some fine day the news’ll flash
Satan with a small moustache
Is asleep beneath the lawn
When that man is dead and gone

What a day to wake up on
What a way to greet the dawn
When a certain man is dead and gone

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by Kathianne
From the International Red Cross, do gooders extraordinaire:

http://ads.guardian.co.uk/html.ng/P...=103550&country=usa&rand=0917166&location=top

Red Cross ultimatum to US on Saddam

Release him, charge him or break international law, Bush told

Jonathan Steele in Baghdad
Monday June 14, 2004
The Guardian

Saddam Hussein must either be released from custody by June 30 or charged if the US and the new Iraqi government are to conform to international law, the International Committee of the Red Cross said last night.
Nada Doumani, a spokeswoman for the ICRC, told the Guardian: "The United States defines Saddam Hussein as a prisoner of war. At the end of an occupation PoWs have to be released provided they have no penal charges against them."

Her comments came as the international body, the only independent group with access to detainees in US custody, becomes increasingly concerned over the legal limbo in which thousands of people are being held in the run-up to the transfer of power at the end of the month.

The occupation officially ends on June 30 and US forces will be in Iraq at the invitation of its sovereign government.

"There are all these people kept in a legal vacuum. No one should be left not knowing their legal status. Their judicial rights must be assured," Ms Doumani said.

MORE ONLINE

Yeah right - the US is just gonna let him walk free. The ICRC needs to get a grip and find something worthwhile to do, like bring aid and comfort to all those Sadam Insane harmed.

Who the hell is the ICRC to give ultimatums? Besides, I thought it was the red crescent of some such nonsense over on that side of the world.

 

[UsaPride]

Originally posted by Kathianne
Saddam Hussein must either be released from custody by June 30 or charged if the US and the new Iraqi government are to conform to international law, the International Committee of the Red Cross said last night.

Or what? Or else?! Okay, let out Saddam, the Red Cross said so. What is WRONG with people?? I feel like I'm living in a Twilight Zone episode.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by Hannitized
Or what? Or else?! Okay, let out Saddam, the Red Cross said so. What is WRONG with people?? I feel like I'm living in a Twilight Zone episode.

Good thing we're not part of the ICC. England is though, as if Tony Blair doesn't have enough problems.

 

[Avatar4321]

So the Red Cross enforces International Law now? Sighs. Im tired of these people totally misunderstanding international law. its so freakin annoying.

 

[americanexpo]

so charge him

we've already embarassed ourselves enough in our dealings with the red cross, this is something we can do to follow the law and that's beneficial towards us

no offense, but the Red Cross and the other NGOs that have taken exception to some of what we're doing in Iraq are not anti-American, they're simply aware of and not going to sit idly by for more violations of international law and common decency. we're not the bad guys, but neither are they. the role they play in other countries, especially ones where US and Western policy has failed (like Burma, Pakistan, China, etc etc) to protect those who speak out for freedom and basic human rights is extremely valuable. i'd rather they come across as annoying do-gooders at times than not be around at all.

just charge saddam as a war criminal.

that should have been our whole thing from the beginning, not that he is a purveryor of WMD but indict his butt as a war criminal who used WMD, oppressed millions of people, etc etc. there's no doubt in any of that at all, while there was and is doubt on the WMD issue.

 

[dilloduck]

Release him into the custody of the interim Iraqi government. They will know what to do with him and I imagine that it will happen rather quickly. Doesn't the IRC realize that he is safer with the US ?

 

[Annie]

That's what the US is going to do, good call Dillo:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040614/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_saddam_6



BAGHDAD, Iraq - The United States will hand over Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and all other detainees to Iraq (news - web sites)'s new government over the next two weeks as sovereignty is restored, the interim prime minister said Monday.

 

[freeandfun1]

Maybe Saddam will hire a good Jewish ACLU attorney to get him out on a technicality once he is handed over. They will claim the war was illegal and therefore, Saddam was arrested under false circumstances and therefore, he must be released.

 

[Merlin1047]

Apparently the ACLU has a branch office with the International Red Cross.

 

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by americanexpo
so charge him

we've already embarassed ourselves enough in our dealings with the red cross, this is something we can do to follow the law and that's beneficial towards us

no offense, but the Red Cross and the other NGOs that have taken exception to some of what we're doing in Iraq are not anti-American, they're simply aware of and not going to sit idly by for more violations of international law and common decency. we're not the bad guys, but neither are they. the role they play in other countries, especially ones where US and Western policy has failed (like Burma, Pakistan, China, etc etc) to protect those who speak out for freedom and basic human rights is extremely valuable. i'd rather they come across as annoying do-gooders at times than not be around at all.

just charge saddam as a war criminal.

Embarrassed? You must be kidding. When the Red Cross starts releasing things FROM EVERY COUNTRY THEY "VISIT" lets see whose embarrassed. The selective release of thier findings re: the US is deplorable.
that should have been our whole thing from the beginning, not that he is a purveryor of WMD but indict his butt as a war criminal who used WMD, oppressed millions of people, etc etc. there's no doubt in any of that at all, while there was and is doubt on the WMD issue. [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[americanexpo]

tell you what, you call it a high horse, i call it the difference between right and wrong

the jackasses who call this total war are wrong, i don't see the majority of you in the military, on call ready to go wherever, that's total war

i don't see american cities in flames, children and women raped and enslaved, men killed

that's the darfur region of sudan, or bosnia in the early 90's, or rwanda (well they killed everyone there)

we're the good guys.... if i have to repeat it again...we're the good guys. that means we're the only ones who try not to kill civilians, we spend millions of dollars perfecting our bombs and missiles to make sure we get the right bad guy and as few innocent people as possible go with him. that's why our troops are supposed to be highly trained in how to deal with prisoners, combatants and civilians. you see, unlike the bosnian serbs, the sudanese militias, the Russian Army in Chechnya, we see a difference, and we make a difference.

the moment you start torturing prisoners (which isn't neccessary, the FBI and the Navy have already proven this countless times at Gitmo, at least until the CIA took over because they (despite no training and no prior experience with this kind of deal) are the experts during "wartime.", according to this administration.)

you start torturing, you slide down a slippery slope, the same one in which we slid down in Vietnam. One day we're fighting a legit war, the next we're burning the village in order to save it, which is a bunch of horseshit. that idea of total war is in fact, state terrorism on the highest level. its the same thing the bosnian serbs and russians did, the same thing saddam did. you talk like that, you join the ranks of dictators and mass murderers the world over. you go ahead and be a war criminal, i don't want to be one, and the majority of my friends in the marines, army and navy who are over in Iraq and Afghanistan refuse to be one as well.

you, who are not asked to sacrifice anything for this war on terror, should have no say in this matter, especially when what you're talking about is in direct violation of our Constitution, which I'm sworn to uphold and protect, and in violation of the Geneva Conventions, which we in the military hold near and dear to our hearts, because its part and parcel of what could keep us alive as prisoners of war in the future one day if that ever happens.

i will not allow people with loose morals and no idea of right and wrong to disillusion a new generation of americans, especially when we're the generation that listened to our parents and grandparents talk about the poor bastards in vietnam who were ordered to do horrible, immoral and nightmarish deeds in the name of "freedom and honor." those very crimes fly in the face of everything we live and die for.

 

[Lefty Wilbury]

actually this was the red cross in baghdad that said this. the red cross headquaters in geneva over ruledthe one in baghdad said no to freeing him because he isn't a pow. he is a leader suspected of crimes againest humanity.

 

[Lefty Wilbury]

here we go:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-me/2004/jun/14/061403219.html


Red Cross: Saddam Can Be Held for Trial
By ALEXANDER G. HIGGINS
ASSOCIATED PRESS

GENEVA (AP) -

Saddam Hussein can be held for trial even though most Iraqi prisoners of war are entitled to immediate release at the end of the U.S. occupation of Iraq, the Red Cross said Monday.

This announcement came as Iraq's interim prime minister, Iyad Allawi, told Al-Jazeera television Monday that he received official confirmation that all detainees, including Saddam, would be "handed over to the Iraqi government" within two weeks.

"Any prisoner of war suspected of having committed any type of crime can be charged and tried," said Antonella Notari, chief spokeswoman of the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Notari said she wanted to make clear the neutral ICRC has no desire to see the release of any POWs, including Saddam, who are suspected of criminal acts.

"Nobody in the ICRC is calling for the release of Saddam Hussein. Absolutely not," Notari told The Associated Press from the Geneva headquarters of the humanitarian agency, which serves as a watchdog to ensure adherence to the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of warfare.

The deposed Iraqi leader has been held in U.S. custody in an undisclosed location in Iraq since his capture in December.

Earlier Monday the Baghdad-based ICRC spokeswoman, Nada Doumani, told Associated Press Television News that under international and military law, Saddam and other prisoners of war and civilian prisoners should be released at the end of the conflict and occupation unless there were charges against them.

Notari said the ICRC was unable to speculate on what would happen July 1 because it didn't know how the United States would proceed with the handover of sovereignty.

"We're not making any ultimatums or calls for release," Notari said. "What we're saying is: Saddam Hussein, as far as we understand today, is a POW, prisoner of war, protected by the third Geneva Convention as all prisoners of war are.

"In theory, when a war ends and when an occupation ends, the detaining force has to release prisoners of war or civilian detainees if there are no reasons for holding them."

But that assumes they were just interned because they were combatants participating in a war.

American forces say that as many as 1,400 detainees will either be released or transferred to Iraqi authorities by the June 30 handover of power. The Americans will continue to hold between 4,000 and 5,000 prisoners deemed a threat to the coalition, the military said.

Although Iraqis will run their own affairs after June 30, tens of thousands of coalition troops will remain in the country to maintain security under a resolution approved unanimously last week by the U.N. Security Council.

After the handover of sovereignty, detainees held by the Iraqi authorities will be subject to Iraqi law.

"Now, of course, a prisoner of war who is suspected of having committed a crime must not just be released," Notari said. "Of course, he must be prosecuted, tried, through a legal proceeding.

She said it was up to U.S. authorities to decide what they will do about Saddam.

"If they continue to hold him at some stage they will have to charge him," Notari said. "They can also hand him over to the Iraqis, who can charge him and try him."

--

 

[pegwinn]

See below in red please.

Originally posted by americanexpo
tell you what, you call it a high horse, i call it the difference between right and wrong It is also called preaching to the choir with a condesending tone of voice. I actually agree with a significant percentage of your posts......but if you continue to presume to talk down to me, we will have a real problem.

the jackasses who call this total war are wrong, i don't see the majority of you in the military, on call ready to go wherever, that's total war

i don't see american cities in flames, children and women raped and enslaved, men killed

that's the darfur region of sudan, or bosnia in the early 90's, or rwanda (well they killed everyone there)

we're the good guys.... if i have to repeat it again...we're the good guys. that means we're the only ones who try not to kill civilians, we spend millions of dollars perfecting our bombs and missiles to make sure we get the right bad guy and as few innocent people as possible go with him. that's why our troops are supposed to be highly trained in how to deal with prisoners, combatants and civilians. you see, unlike the bosnian serbs, the sudanese militias, the Russian Army in Chechnya, we see a difference, and we make a difference. Again, you are preaching to a converted congregation. And you are presuming to lecture from a not well defended position of so-called moral superiority.

the moment you start torturing prisoners (which isn't neccessary, the FBI and the Navy have already proven this countless times at Gitmo, at least until the CIA took over because they (despite no training and no prior experience with this kind of deal) are the experts during "wartime.", according to this administration.)

you start torturing, you slide down a slippery slope, the same one in which we slid down in Vietnam. One day we're fighting a legit war, the next we're burning the village in order to save it, which is a bunch of horseshit. that idea of total war is in fact, state terrorism on the highest level. its the same thing the bosnian serbs and russians did, the same thing saddam did. Same thing we did in WW2you talk like that, you join the ranks of dictators and mass murderers the world over. you go ahead and be a war criminal, i don't want to be one, and the majority of my friends in the marines, army and navy who are over in Iraq and Afghanistan refuse to be one as well. The overwhelming majority of the servicemembers incountry are doing an awesome job and were disgraced by a very small few. Further, I haven't seen any member of this board advocate committing war crimes. I warned you once about that lecturing stuff.

you, who are not asked to sacrifice anything for this war on terror, should have no say in this matter, especially when what you're talking about is in direct violation of our Constitution, which I'm sworn to uphold and protect, and in violation of the Geneva Conventions, which we in the military hold near and dear to our hearts, because its part and parcel of what could keep us alive as prisoners of war in the future one day if that ever happens.

i will not allow people with loose morals and no idea of right and wrong to disillusion a new generation of americans, especially when we're the generation that listened to our parents and grandparents talk about the poor bastards in vietnam who were ordered to do horrible, immoral and nightmarish deeds in the name of "freedom and honor." those very crimes fly in the face of everything we live and die for.

Ok knucklehead, NOW HEAR THIS. How old are you? Not bloomin old enough to speak this way. And as far as your statement that "you who don't wear a uniform", Are you fucking nuts boy? I already answered every call to arms issued from 1981-2003. Meaning I retired just long enough ago that my students are still incountry. There are others on this board who also served going back into the Vietnam Era and before. Your entire "I'm in the service so I know the answer" line is utter bullshit. The really good part about America is that you don't ever have to wear a uniform to belong. The fact that you do, is commendable. What rank are you? PO3 or 2? You sound like you have enough experience and motivation to be on the latter part of your first contract. Oh yeah, and about your "no idea about right or wrong" scenario, I taught that class "Law of Land Warfare" for many years to both Sailors and Marines. You need some PME boy. Your current ration of shit may fly at the CFAY E-Club during happy hour, but not here.

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
I hate to say this but I bet he has no rank at all, in fact I bet he is a desk jockey somewhere in the department! Well I am glad I am not the only one seeing through this guys line of crap!

Nice post Pegwinn!

did 12 years myself and this guy certainly does not speak for me. If his conscience is getting at him this bad, he needs to get the hell out. Wars are a messy business.

Hey Expo - my kid is in Iraq killing before he gets killed so you can sit your sorry ass in Yokuska hwere I am sure you are in harms way every day. He comes home in November, God willing (just earned his first Purple Heart). Thought I would invite you to his home coming so you can lay your line of crap on him.

you, who are not asked to sacrifice anything for this war on terror, should have no say in this matter, especially when what you're talking about is in direct violation of our Constitution, which I'm sworn to uphold and protect, and in violation of the Geneva Conventions, which we in the military hold near and dear to our hearts, because its part and parcel of what could keep us alive as prisoners of war in the future one day if that ever happens.

Gimme a freaking break asshole. you know nothing about anyone on this board because you are too damn busy passing judgement to know who the hell you are talking to.

Uphold and Protect this :moon4:

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by HGROKIT

Hey Expo - my kid is in Iraq killing before he gets killed so you can sit your sorry ass in Yokuska hwere I am sure you are in harms way every day. He comes home in November, God willing (just earned his first Purple Heart). Thought I would invite you to his home coming so you can lay your line of crap on him.

Tell your boy thanks and to stay low. I hope he's earned his first and only PH. If he is texas bound, holler and I will buy him a beer even if he aint turned 21.

Ohhrah

 

[HGROKIT]

Naw, he's an Okie - born there when I was in. We all live in the Northwest now - he's old enough and when he gets home, I'll tell him this ones from "pegwinn"

Thanks

 

[americanexpo]

alright, if i'm talking down to anyone, its to the people who are sitting here advocating torture and seeing nothing wrong with us dashing away the geneva conventions, our moral authority and for god's sake, the higher standard everyone who ever served in uniform took pride in rising to and exceeding.

call me a knucklehead, call me a desk jockey, call me a preacher, it doesn't matter to me. for those who were in the military before, you had competent leadership more often than not. hell, some of you served during the glory days of reagan. you had a clear objective, with leaders who knew and followed the rules, hell even set them. we were not sending troops to fight without the proper equipment and training, we weren't taking 60 year old alliances for granted and dashing them at the instant there was a disagreement, we weren't taking extremely fantasy filled views of the consitution.

now okay, you got civilians in the pentagon, most of whom have never served in the military or even some form of government service that called for an ounce of sacrifice, and they're telling the military what to do and how to do it. they're putting your kids, your family, out on the line and then questioning and overriding the assessments those kids make out on the field. they're telling the army to override decades of moral and discipline codes, all in the name of fighting a war on terror that their bungling is causing us to lose.

your kid might be johnny war hero, and that's great. i'm not, some of my friends are. some of my friends have died. they didn't start questioning what their country's leadership was doing, didn't start doubting the military, until all this mess came out. they're trying to do their job, trying to help the iraqi people out, and stabbing them right in the back is senior leadership telling junior personnel that its alright to torture and override the civilized rules of law that they've been trained and indoctorinated in. how can my ex-roommate in army civil affairs do his job getting iraqi people to work with him and his unit when the army leadership next door is authorizing those army guys to pick suspects up and torture them? you can say its a few bad apples, and it is, but its also in the system, all the way up to the top, from memos and documents and edicts that have decided to do this, straight from the top of the DOD chain of command.

my conscience is eating away at me because i'm serving with folks who've never heard a word of concern or complaint from their japanese hosts in decades, and all of a sudden they're in an uproar. "how can you just throw away these laws? how can you ignore them? don't you see that's how we got into a big war with America? we thought we could be an empire, thought we were above the law, thought we were greater than everyone else. why are you not learning from the past?"

I"M PROUD OF MY SERVICE BUT ASHAMED OF MY LEADERSHIP. ITS NOT ACTING FOR THOSE IN UNIFORM, ITS SPEAKING FOR ITS NARROW SELF-CENTERED AGENDA THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAKING AMERICA A BETTER NATION OR WINNING THE WAR ON TERROR.

our future as a benign world leader is in jeopardy right now. we should be concerned about that. when people are more afraid of us than inspired by us, that should concern you. we're supposed to be an ideal, an inspiration to indians, kenyans, brazillians and countless other groups in the world. part of being the greatest country on earth is acting like it, owning up to those responsibilities and taking a leadership role. hiding from the red cross, dismissing the concerns of well meaning (but often mis led and misdirected) human rights groups (why would they be anti-US all the time? of course they will make mistakes,but we're antagonizing them and adopting the methods of some of their greatest enemies, nations like Burma, China and Uzebekistan (two of which just happen to be prominent members of our Coalition against terror, a coalition that is doing far more to inspire more terrorists than to stop them) and running roughshod over and talking down to our allies is not helping matters.

again, we are the good guys. we're no.1 on this planet, the leading good government. that means we, especially our military, is held to a higher standard. the minute people want to stop living up to this higher standard of honor and morality, that's a day of tragedy. its not hard being the moral leader of the world, but it seems very much to me that quite a few people in this country, especially in positions of power, are getting tired of living up to that responsibility.