FORT HOOD: Now that I took Obama's advice and didn't jump to conclusions I think.....

[PatekPhilippe]

Here is the codified definition of terrorism as outlined in U.S. Code
18 U.S.C. § 2331 : US Code - Section 2331: Definitions

As used in this chapter -
(1) the term "international terrorism" means activities that -
(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that
are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of
any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed
within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended -
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by
intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass
destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of
the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of
the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they
appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which
their perpetrators operate or seek asylum;
(2) the term "national of the United States" has the meaning
given such term in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and
Nationality Act;
(3) the term "person" means any individual or entity capable of
holding a legal or beneficial interest in property;
(4) the term "act of war" means any act occurring in the course
of -
(A) declared war;
(B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared,
between two or more nations; or
(C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin; and
(5) the term "domestic terrorism" means activities that -
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation
of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended -
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by
intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass
destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of
the United States.

Doesn't say a goddam thing about civilians or military personnel.

 

[Ravi]

I feel this may have actually been a terrorist attack. I've had several days now to process all the different facts and opinions in relation to fort hood and in light of everything I think this guy actually intended to use violence for a political purpose to intimidate his fellow US soldiers that were deploying to fight against people of Muslim faith.

I know I know I was bitching and moaning at all of you who were saying this the day it happened and the day after but I didn't like how everyone just immediately jumped to that conclusion.

I've had time to look at what happened and look at the stuff the shooter actually said and posted on-line and it does seem like "terrorism" For purposes of this discussion I will include the definition of terrorism below from dictionary.com

1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorizing.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way, I'm not saying he did it because he was a Muslim. I still hold to my position that he did this because he is a psychopathic a-hole. However, it does appear to be at the least politically (internally within the base) motivated shooting that was done to make a statement and instill fear into people.

What makes you so sure it wasn't a hate crime?

 

[Zander]

He is a domestic terrorist that committed an act of terror against our nation. There is nothing to spin about or quibble over. This scumbag was in contact with Al Qaeda. We are at war with Al Qaeda. It is both treason and terrorism. He is an enemy combatant and should face a firing squad.

Now, this piece of waste will be tried, convicted and executed. If I had my way he'd be dipped in a vat of pigs blood first, then wrapped in the carcass of a dead pig, and buried in a pile of heavily used feminine napkins. He is the scum of the earth.

 

[nodoginnafight]

United States Law Code – the law that governs the entire country – contains a definition of terrorism embedded in its requirement that Annual Country reports on Terrorism be submitted by the Secretary of State to Congress every year. (From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)

(d) Definitions
As used in this section—
(1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;
(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
(3) the term “terrorist group” means any group, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism;
(4) the terms “territory” and “territory of the country” mean the land, waters, and airspace of the country; and
(5) the terms “terrorist sanctuary” and “sanctuary” mean an area in the territory of the country—
(A) that is used by a terrorist or terrorist organization—
(i) to carry out terrorist activities, including training, fundraising, financing, and recruitment; or
(ii) as a transit point; and
(B) the government of which expressly consents to, or with knowledge, allows, tolerates, or disregards such use of its territory and is not subject to a determination under—
(i) section 2405(j)(1)(A) of the Appendix to title 50;
(ii) section 2371 (a) of this title; or
(iii) section 2780 (d) of this title.

http://terrorism.about.com/od/whatisterroris1/ss/DefineTerrorism_5.htm

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Your definition is incorrect.

 

[nodoginnafight]

NoDog does raise some interesting questions.

I'm re-evaluating my opinion as I read all of everyone's posts. I still feel like this guy committed an act of terrorism in the general sense of the word but from reading NoDog's link to the US legal definition of terrorism this act doesn't fit it.

We all may not be able to agree on that but I know there is one thing we can all agree on....this shooter was at best a traitor to our country.

And I think this is the salient point in a nutshell. Whether or not this guys acts qualify under a strict legal definition of terrorism is just a peripheral point that may only matter in a strictly legal sense now that he is going to face a legal system.

While his actions don't fit the legal defition, it doesn't make them any more excusable or acceptable.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

and here is the link...
US CODE: Title 18,2331. Definitions

 

[Ravi]

United States Law Code – the law that governs the entire country – contains a definition of terrorism embedded in its requirement that Annual Country reports on Terrorism be submitted by the Secretary of State to Congress every year. (From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)

(d) Definitions
As used in this section—
(1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;
(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
(3) the term “terrorist group” means any group, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism;
(4) the terms “territory” and “territory of the country” mean the land, waters, and airspace of the country; and
(5) the terms “terrorist sanctuary” and “sanctuary” mean an area in the territory of the country—
(A) that is used by a terrorist or terrorist organization—
(i) to carry out terrorist activities, including training, fundraising, financing, and recruitment; or
(ii) as a transit point; and
(B) the government of which expressly consents to, or with knowledge, allows, tolerates, or disregards such use of its territory and is not subject to a determination under—
(i) section 2405(j)(1)(A) of the Appendix to title 50;
(ii) section 2371 (a) of this title; or
(iii) section 2780 (d) of this title.

U.S. Law Definition of Terrorism

Thank you for that...now I actually do understand the difference between terrorism and hate crime.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I feel this may have actually been a terrorist attack. I've had several days now to process all the different facts and opinions in relation to fort hood and in light of everything I think this guy actually intended to use violence for a political purpose to intimidate his fellow US soldiers that were deploying to fight against people of Muslim faith.

I know I know I was bitching and moaning at all of you who were saying this the day it happened and the day after but I didn't like how everyone just immediately jumped to that conclusion.

I've had time to look at what happened and look at the stuff the shooter actually said and posted on-line and it does seem like "terrorism" For purposes of this discussion I will include the definition of terrorism below from dictionary.com

1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorizing.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way, I'm not saying he did it because he was a Muslim. I still hold to my position that he did this because he is a psychopathic a-hole. However, it does appear to be at the least politically (internally within the base) motivated shooting that was done to make a statement and instill fear into people.

What makes you so sure it wasn't a hate crime?

It could be considered a hate crime against the Armed services I guess, but it does fit more under the terrorism definition (depending on which legal definitions you read) in my opinion.




Patek found a US law that definately throws this into the terrorism catagory and NoDog found another US law that excludes it from the terrorism catagory

US LAW

Lets call him the other T-word instead traiter.

 

[nodoginnafight]

United States Law Code – the law that governs the entire country – contains a definition of terrorism embedded in its requirement that Annual Country reports on Terrorism be submitted by the Secretary of State to Congress every year. (From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)

(d) Definitions
As used in this section—
(1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;
(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
(3) the term “terrorist group” means any group, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism;
(4) the terms “territory” and “territory of the country” mean the land, waters, and airspace of the country; and
(5) the terms “terrorist sanctuary” and “sanctuary” mean an area in the territory of the country—
(A) that is used by a terrorist or terrorist organization—
(i) to carry out terrorist activities, including training, fundraising, financing, and recruitment; or
(ii) as a transit point; and
(B) the government of which expressly consents to, or with knowledge, allows, tolerates, or disregards such use of its territory and is not subject to a determination under—
(i) section 2405(j)(1)(A) of the Appendix to title 50;
(ii) section 2371 (a) of this title; or
(iii) section 2780 (d) of this title.

U.S. Law Definition of Terrorism

Thank you for that...now I actually do understand the difference between terrorism and hate crime.

I think it's an important distinction but I also believe it'sd not the most important POINT.
What he did was what he did - no matter what label is attached.
And it was despicable and merits as harsh a punishment as we can give. IMHO.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

I feel this may have actually been a terrorist attack. I've had several days now to process all the different facts and opinions in relation to fort hood and in light of everything I think this guy actually intended to use violence for a political purpose to intimidate his fellow US soldiers that were deploying to fight against people of Muslim faith.

I know I know I was bitching and moaning at all of you who were saying this the day it happened and the day after but I didn't like how everyone just immediately jumped to that conclusion.

I've had time to look at what happened and look at the stuff the shooter actually said and posted on-line and it does seem like "terrorism" For purposes of this discussion I will include the definition of terrorism below from dictionary.com

1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorizing.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way, I'm not saying he did it because he was a Muslim. I still hold to my position that he did this because he is a psychopathic a-hole. However, it does appear to be at the least politically (internally within the base) motivated shooting that was done to make a statement and instill fear into people.

What makes you so sure it wasn't a hate crime?

It could be considered a hate crime against the Armed services I guess, but it does fit more under the terrorism definition (depending on which legal definitions you read) in my opinion.




Patek found a US law that definately throws this into the terrorism catagory and NoDog found another US law that excludes it from the terrorism catagory

US LAW

Lets call him the other T-word instead traiter.

nodogs definition is pre-Patriot Act.(?)

 

[Ravi]

United States Law Code – the law that governs the entire country – contains a definition of terrorism embedded in its requirement that Annual Country reports on Terrorism be submitted by the Secretary of State to Congress every year. (From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)

(d) Definitions
As used in this section—
(1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;
(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
(3) the term “terrorist group” means any group, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism;
(4) the terms “territory” and “territory of the country” mean the land, waters, and airspace of the country; and
(5) the terms “terrorist sanctuary” and “sanctuary” mean an area in the territory of the country—
(A) that is used by a terrorist or terrorist organization—
(i) to carry out terrorist activities, including training, fundraising, financing, and recruitment; or
(ii) as a transit point; and
(B) the government of which expressly consents to, or with knowledge, allows, tolerates, or disregards such use of its territory and is not subject to a determination under—
(i) section 2405(j)(1)(A) of the Appendix to title 50;
(ii) section 2371 (a) of this title; or
(iii) section 2780 (d) of this title.

U.S. Law Definition of Terrorism

Thank you for that...now I actually do understand the difference between terrorism and hate crime.

I think it's an important distinction but I also believe it'sd not the most important POINT.
What he did was what he did - no matter what label is attached.
And it was despicable and merits as harsh a punishment as we can give. IMHO.

Yes, I agree. I'm against the death penalty, but since he knew he was signing on for it when he enlisted I think in this case I can make an exception.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

I typed in nodogs U.S. Code reference and there was no link to a legitimate law reference site....only left wing loon websites....no offense nodog...but I think your info may be outdated.

The Patriot Act redefined terrorism and now Hasan can be considered a domestic terrorist by legal definition.

 

[Claudette]

Luv it Zander. Couldn't agree more.

Terrorists aren't picky. They will kill anyone anywhere. Doesn't matter if its civilian men, women and children in a mall or pizza parlor or civilians in a night club or our men and women in uniform. Anyone is fair game for these bastards. This shitbag was American born and to me thats even worse. This fuckwad killed 13 of his fellow soldiers, comrades in arms, because his faith was more important than anything else in his life. What a fucking dirtbag. Just the kind of guy I'd want watching my back if I were a soldier.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Thank you for that...now I actually do understand the difference between terrorism and hate crime.

I think it's an important distinction but I also believe it'sd not the most important POINT.
What he did was what he did - no matter what label is attached.
And it was despicable and merits as harsh a punishment as we can give. IMHO.

Yes, I agree. I'm against the death penalty, but since he knew he was signing on for it when he enlisted I think in this case I can make an exception.

I'm with you on that - I am not in favor of the death penalty - but I don't really have a problem with it in this case.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Nope - Sorry PP - I found why there is a difference in wording. Want me to tell you (it's not a date issue) or you want to continue your own research?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Nope - Sorry PP - I found why there is a difference in wording. Want me to tell you (it's not a date issue) or you want to continue your own research?

Why is there no link to a legitimate law reference site with your Code reference?

 

[nodoginnafight]

One law pertains to how the state department is instructed to define terrorism and the other law pertains to how terrorism is to be defined under U.S. Criminal Code.

Since this act was committed on U.S. soil then I think the more appropriate defition should be the one found in U.S. Criminal Code and that is the defition YOU provide.

I withdraw everything I have said prior to this point about whath definition should be applied. PP - IMHO yours is the correct definition for this case.

 

[immto]

Don't take what I'm saying the wrong way, I'm not saying he did it because he was a Muslim. I still hold to my position that he did this because he is a psychopathic a-hole. However, it does appear to be at the least politically (internally within the base) motivated shooting that was done to make a statement and instill fear into people.

I think that is a fair statement. I think the idea of terrorism has been used to talk more about a coordinated effort than your definition (also a valid one). Certainly I think this guy was nuts and was either inspired by, or used as justification, the political/religious reasons. Though I doubt very seriously this was any plan beyond this one guy.

True, but you can still be a single celled terrorist

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I was just trucking the the U.S. Code (my head hurts now) U.S. Code -- Download by title or chapter

and title 22, chapter 38, paragraph 2656f, is titled Annual country reports on terrorism.

I can't find the text of that chapter yet though.



NoDog PLEASE just tell me or point me in a linkable direction . I'm going crazy trying to nail it down here. EDIT: I just saw your other post.

EDIT2: Look at how well things go when we dont let politics divide our search for knowledge .