For those who said forcing Americans to buy private insurance was Unconstitutional...

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Why aren't you saying that about Ryan's kill-Medicare plan?

Which forces seniors to buy private insurance...

Actually, your question and the issue itself are moot – there is no ‘individual mandate’:

‘‘(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.—In the case of
any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed
by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any
criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, Page 249

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ148/pdf/PLAW-111publ148.pdf

Because there are no criminal penalties – no investigation, no indictment, no prosecution, no trial, no sentencing, no jail time or fine paid, there is noting compelling an individual to purchase insurance. The only downside to not paying the fee for not purchasing insurance is you may not be eligible for insurance should you need it in the future.

It is in essence an ‘economic mandate,’ as there is no punitive component to the legislation. In order for the plan to work there needs to be a sufficient number of participants in the insurance pool.

Of course any debate of the issue is ridiculous – anyone who can afford insurance will purchase it anyway as to not do so would be irresponsible, whether ‘mandated’ or not. And those who can’t afford insurance, of course, will have it provided for them.

Consequently the ‘individual mandate’ is a non-issue.

But carry on with the RyanCare discussion, by all means.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Why aren't you saying that about Ryan's kill-Medicare plan?

Which forces seniors to buy private insurance...

Not accurate, does nothing of the sort for today's seniors or those that will be such in next 10 years:

Ramesh Ponnuru: Medicare: Ryan care vs. bureaucrats | Contributors | projo.com | The Providence Journal

Your link is nothing about nothing.

but just for your personal edification, the thread is about Ryancare once it's fully implemented. We all know there's a pander to current plus-55's in the plan as a lame attempt to dodge the wrath of the senior voter. That's not relevant here.

 

[NYcarbineer]

How do you get healthcare to all it the real question.

Show me someone in the US who does not have access to health care. As far as I can see everyone has it already, so getting the government in it to fix something that is not broken is a sign of a deficient intelligence.

The people in Arizona who were denied liver transplants because the state wouldn't pay for them.

To say everyone has access to healthcare is like saying everyone has access to a mansion and a Rolls Royce.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Why aren't you saying that about Ryan's kill-Medicare plan?

Which forces seniors to buy private insurance...

Ummm...what part of "you can if you want to" is forcing them?

Hmmm. Nothing. Looks like you fail.

If you don't buy it, you lose the entire amount you've paid into Medicare for your entire working life.

That's a bigger fine than the one in so-called Obamacare.

 

[Greenbeard]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. We already have County Hospitals. Who said anything about eliminating those hospitals?

I'm not sure there's a movement to purposefully eliminate them. Slashing their funding, on the other hand, has now become part of the GOP health care agenda.

 

[WillowTree]

Why aren't you saying that about Ryan's kill-Medicare plan?

Which forces seniors to buy private insurance...

Since when are seniors forced to use medicare at all? It's a voluntary program. The government has the choice stacked against you (if you begin collecting social security benefits then you're automatically enrolled in medicare), but in the end it's still voluntary.

Bullshit. you are automatically enrolled in medicare, it becomes your first insurerer,, if you opt out you lose your social security. you are so freaking full of shit.

 

[Truthmatters]

Healthcare is a matter of life and death.

Refusing care to anyone is morally wrong.

Forcing people to pay for the care of others is morally wrong.

They only way to do it the moral way is for EVERY adult to help pay and everyone to get care.

 

[WillowTree]

Since when are seniors forced to use medicare at all? It's a voluntary program. The government has the choice stacked against you (if you begin collecting social security benefits then you're automatically enrolled in medicare), but in the end it's still voluntary.

Actually, under current law, seniors who don't sign up for Medicare can be denied their Social Security benefits.

Right, that's what I meant. But none-the-less, it's all voluntary. Ryan's fix/attack or whatever you want to call it doesn't change the fact that Medicare is voluntary.

fuck no it's isn't voluntary, you are forced to pay the bill your entire working life. if it were an opt out deal they wouldn't pull the fucking money out of your paycheck you stupid demonRat.

 

[WillowTree]

Actually, under current law, seniors who don't sign up for Medicare can be denied their Social Security benefits.

Right, that's what I meant. But none-the-less, it's all voluntary. Ryan's fix/attack or whatever you want to call it doesn't change the fact that Medicare is voluntary.

I don't think the payroll tax is voluntary. Is Ryan getting rid of the payroll tax? Is he giving seniors a voucher whether they paid in or not?

And a voucher is a voucher. It's not cash. It's a coupon.

I wish he would

 

[Immanuel]

I'm not sure what you are getting at. We already have County Hospitals. Who said anything about eliminating those hospitals?

I'm not sure there's a movement to purposefully eliminate them. Slashing their funding, on the other hand, has now become part of the GOP health care agenda.

I hate to ask, but since I know you are pretty knowledgeable in this area... gotta link to that?

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Healthcare is a matter of life and death.

Refusing care to anyone is morally wrong.

Crap! For once we actually agree on something.

Forcing people to pay for the care of others is morally wrong.

Shit! Make that twice in one post... but then why are you for President Obama's Health Care Reform Bill which actually by your own words is morally wrong?

They only way to do it the moral way is for EVERY adult to help pay and everyone to get care.

There, you see, you are promoting something that is morally wrong by your own words. You want to do this by force. By your own words, that is morally wrong.

Immie

 

[auditor0007]

I'd like to see the voucher turned into something they can use to purchase health care directly owithout having to buy insurance or saved in a health savings account for the future if they so choose.

Ultimately, this is can only be a transition plan to dismantle the entire thing altogether. We should privatize retirement and health care.

You really must want us to become a full blown socialist state then. Take away every safety net that has been established and just wait to see what happens. People who think like this, that the market can and should handle everything, and we should dispose of all the safety nets, well, you just aren't very bright. You are ideologues that actually believe things would work under such a system.

I'm just curious if you think that we should force people to pay for police protection under such a system. Who would derive the most benefit from police under your Utopian system? I'll give you a hint; it would be the few who benefited the most being protected from the masses. In otherwords, it would be a police state, your Utopia.

While the vast majority here may think like you, Thank God this board does not represent the bulk of America.

Do you know what socialism is?

Socialism is something that we do not currently have despite that belief here in USMB. In fact, Europe, while having a larger safety net, cannot really be considered socialist. I guess the real question is whether you and most everyone else here know what socialism is.

 

[dblack]

Why aren't you saying that about Ryan's kill-Medicare plan?

Which forces seniors to buy private insurance...

Actually, your question and the issue itself are moot – there is no ‘individual mandate’:

‘‘(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.—In the case of
any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed
by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any
criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, Page 249

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ148/pdf/PLAW-111publ148.pdf

Because there are no criminal penalties – ...

Sorry, but I'm not buying this any more than I believed Obama when he promised us the individual mandate wasn't a tax. This is more shifty bullshit. To wit - it might be legal to simply ignore the fine levied via the mandate, but here's what will happen:

Let's say the feds levy a $1000 fine against you for not coughing up blood money to the insurance corps. Let's say you owe $2000 in income tax. You file your taxes and send in your check for $2000. What do you suppose the IRS will do with that check? I'm betting that they snatch the first $1000 and apply it to your fine, then send you nasty letter demanding the other $1000 you owe in taxes. It might not be illegal to neglect the fine, but it's sure as hell illegal to refuse to pay your taxes.

Think this won't happen? Were you one of the people who believed Obama and the Democrats when they claimed ACA wasn't a tax increase?

 

[buckeye45_73]

Why aren't you saying that about Ryan's kill-Medicare plan?

Which forces seniors to buy private insurance...

Since when are seniors forced to use medicare at all? It's a voluntary program. The government has the choice stacked against you (if you begin collecting social security benefits then you're automatically enrolled in medicare), but in the end it's still voluntary.

what???? You're getting medicare and then a voucher for medicare, so how is that any different. the only thing is you talk to the doctor and can negotiate the price yourself. whats wrong with that? I mean the main reason medical costs are so high, other than lawsuits, is that doctors charge medicare what they want, because it's an endless money supply. You think cell phones would be as cheap under a medicare type plan? hell no, but since you go shop around they have lowered dramtically and come out with better ones each year.

I like the vouchers more than insurance, I think insurance companies should go away or just be people that pay for vouchers, and then we the people should be able to go to a doctor and ask what they charge for....... a pysical, eye exam, ect. The cost will be lowered, so I look at this as a step in the right direction.
Another way to go would be to get rid of laws allowing certain compaines to work within certain states. I should be able to choose health insurance like car insurance. If I want Blue cross/blue shield or if I want cigna or if I want whomever. I think that is a no brainer and would bring down costs, just look at long distance, we had a monopoly for so long and it was expensive, the govt removed the restriction and now tons of compaines offer long distance and now it's unlimited for like $20-30/month and that's the whole package, unlimited long distance and local. It used to be like $40/mn for local and like $2/min for long distance. thank you deregulation!!!!!!!!!

 

[auditor0007]

So they die on the way to a hospital when there is one much closer?

What hospital? The make believe Charity Hospital suggested? It won't exist. We keep hearing how much healthcare costs; who do you think is going to fund a fucking charity hospital? And we'd have to have them throughout the country, every major metropolitan area, smaller towns and rural areas. Who's gonna fund the fucking Charity Hospital I ask again?

I'm not sure what you are getting at. We already have County Hospitals. Who said anything about eliminating those hospitals?

Immie

And what happens when the majority of people are standing in line at the County Hospital because they can't afford their insurance? When so many are at the point of not affording their own insurance, do you have any idea what that will do to the cost of for profit hospitals? They won't have enough customers to justify their existence. There is a good reason that Medicare was put in place, and there is also a very good reason it still exists today as an even bigger program. That reason is so that the people who worked their entire lives will have access to reasonable health care in their retirement. You want to go back to the days when most peopled died a couple years after retiring because they could not afford their own medical care.

 

[auditor0007]

Why aren't you saying that about Ryan's kill-Medicare plan?

Which forces seniors to buy private insurance...

Since when are seniors forced to use medicare at all? It's a voluntary program. The government has the choice stacked against you (if you begin collecting social security benefits then you're automatically enrolled in medicare), but in the end it's still voluntary.

Bullshit. you are automatically enrolled in medicare, it becomes your first insurerer,, if you opt out you lose your social security. you are so freaking full of shit.

Well we know how bad people are hoping to give up their Medicare, lol. I see them lining up to buy private insurance.

 

[Trajan]

Because it doesn't. It provides a voucher for senior to use to purchase their own health insurance, if they so choose.

It doesn't fine them if they opt out.

unlike say the HHS who is trying to find a way which allow the government to bang you out of SS if you refuse to utilize medicare....

The Obama administration is trying to shove Medicare coverage down the throats of senior citizens who don’t want it, but it’s efforts are falling flat. Five plaintiffs are suing, arguing that no statute or regulation allows government to implement this requirement.

The Department of Health and Human Services insists an individual cannot forfeit Medicare eligibility and continue to collect Social Security benefits even after paying into the latter system over an entire career. The plaintiffs have private insurance they consider superior to Medicare and are willing to allow the Treasury to keep the benefits they earned after having paid Medicare taxes for decades. Everybody, including the American taxpayer, wins - except for bureaucrats, who don’t want to be bothered to keep track of those who willingly forgo Medicare coverage.

EDITORIAL: Mugged by Medicare - Washington Times


and this thread just symptomatic of how little understanding exists of the issue, and is prevalent among the unicorn huggers...unreal.

 

[Trajan]

Because it doesn't. It provides a voucher for senior to use to purchase their own health insurance, if they so choose.

It doesn't fine them if they opt out.

It converts their previous medicare payments into vouchers that can only be used for insurance. They can "opt out" but then they lose their benefits altogether. It's hard to miss the similarity between this and Obamacare as each as has the same intent - to push as many people as possible into the private insurance pool, at taxpayer expense. More corporate welfare.

uhmm no, sorry.

 

[Trajan]

Why aren't you saying that about Ryan's kill-Medicare plan?

Which forces seniors to buy private insurance...

Ummm...what part of "you can if you want to" is forcing them?

Hmmm. Nothing. Looks like you fail.

If you don't buy it, you lose the entire amount you've paid into Medicare for your entire working life.

That's a bigger fine than the one in so-called Obamacare.

so you don't sppt. enactment of means testing and its results?

 

[auditor0007]

Healthcare is a matter of life and death.

Refusing care to anyone is morally wrong.

Crap! For once we actually agree on something.

Forcing people to pay for the care of others is morally wrong.

Shit! Make that twice in one post... but then why are you for President Obama's Health Care Reform Bill which actually by your own words is morally wrong?

They only way to do it the moral way is for EVERY adult to help pay and everyone to get care.

There, you see, you are promoting something that is morally wrong by your own words. You want to do this by force. By your own words, that is morally wrong.

Immie

To satisfy all those who think it is wrong to force people to do anything, I think Medicare and any mandatory health system should be voluntary. Anyone who wants may choose to opt out. However, once they opt out, they must be able to pay their own way or they are denied treatment, even if that means they die a horrible death that might be unnecessary. A 70 year old with cancer and no money is not going to be able to work out a payment plan. So they would be left to go home without even painkillers. I think this ought to satisfy eveyone who doesn't want to be forced into doing anything.