For Those Who Do Believe In God...

[Newby]

You have a closed mind from my perspective, and you seem to have no desire to learn anything. Quite frankly, I don't believe that you have read the Bible, or you wouldn't have made some of the comments that you have in this thread. Or you read it with the intension of not finding anything worthwhile in it.

We're not on the same page at all with the science/religion part, and you're not able to see it from another perspective at all, only the one you were taught at some point in your life. There is order to everything, that order originated from somewhere, it just didn't conveniently work out that way. When you can explain that order to the universe and understand it completely, then you might have basis in logic that there isn't any higher power. In my opinion, man is not capable of that depth of understanding, so to believe that you understand it enough to discount a higher being tells me that you think a little too highly of your own ability to comprehend.

Well, people will believe what they want to believe. So you don't have to believe that I read the Bible if you don't want to. It seems apparent to me that you haven't read all of my posts in this thread.

Can you explain how science can claim that there is evidence of God? If so, then why aren't you famous?

Human beings minds require order to function, to process information and makes sense of the stimuli their senses receive. Therefore we perceive order in the chaos of the Universe. This is psychological, and perceived; we perceive order - which doesn't mean it exists. I'm not saying it doesn't, but neither am I saying it does. I've read books which claim chaos is actually order. That both proves and disproves what I'm saying.

And let me put it this way, someone can tell me that the flying spaghetti monster exists but there isn't any proof. So should I accept that or does the burden of proof rely on the messenger? Someone can publish an article that proposes the existence of the purple-bellied spider lizard, but until they furnish proof of this discovery, I won't operate or live my life as though it does. They must furnish proof. I don't have time to spend my entire life trying out different religions to see which one is the best or which one is true. For those that propose that their religion is true, that God exists, must furnish proof or be seen as irrational because faith is exactly that: irrational. It might make sense to those who have it, but to those who live their lives by logic, reason, and rational thought, faith doesn't make sense.

Unless you can somehow show that I'm wrong instead of criticizing my posts, then you can simply dismiss yourself from this discussion.

You completely missed my point. Of course I'm not claiming that science has proven that there is a God. Science is MAN made, a creation of the human mind and what the human mind is capable of understanding. What makes you think that the human mind is capable of understanding everything in this universe? In my opinion, man cannot understand everything about the world we live in, therefore to dismiss the idea of a higher being because you think that you do seems pretty arrogant. I said that until you can fully understand everything about the order of the universe, then science only proves what you want it too, since we created it (science).

 

[AllieBaba]

What science HAS proven is that the bible is impossible to DISPROVE. Despite the concentrated efforts made over the years to prove that the bible is fallible, a lie, and not based in fact, there has been nothing which definitively has been disproved.

Which tells you something.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I think your main problem is that you see 'logic' and 'faith' as being mutually exclusive. And it seems that you've made this judgement without educating yourself, so perhaps you aren't in an intellectually advanced enough position to even have that opinion? I say this because it is apparent from your comments that you've never read the Bible or the teachings of Jesus, yet you have already made up your mind that logic does not apply. If you read the New Testament it is basically a strategy for living your life sucessfully. Science and religion are not opposties and until you understand that then you won't move beyond where you are now at. My two cents.

Nice try with the assumption, but I have read the Bible. I read it from the perspective of a non-believer which most likely really skewed my understanding. To me the Bible was a patchwork of obviously different styles. I also understand that the Bible has been rewritten, at the Council of Nicea in 200 AD) and translated into different languages a good number of times. So to my understanding, that immediately prevents it from being a perfect written version of God's word.

What this has to do with intellectual advancement...I don't know. I do, however, know that it is easier to criticize another than it is to put forth real material or a real opinion.

From my point of view, faith is anathema to logic and reasoning. In order for the Christian religion to make sense to me, I have to believe. But there isn't any real evidence that the Christian religion is right, at least, for me there isn't. And I haven't read or seen or experienced anything that would confirm the existence of truth in the Christian religion. I have, on the other hand, read, seen, and experienced many things which, logically and using reason, point in the direction that Christianity, like all religions, is an invention of humankind. In order for me to have faith, I have to deny those experiences. I have to deny logic. I'd have to suspend my capability to reason.

What incentive do I have to do that? Nothing tangible. Sure, I can think to myself that I want to avoid eternal damnation and spend my afterlife in paradise, but that isn't tangible. I've heard that called by Christians as Fire Insurance, or its what I like to call Afterlife Insurance. That isn't enough to convince me that what the Bible says is true. That is simply a desire. I want to believe that there is an afterlife, but that doesn't make it true, and it doesn't make me believe there is one. I want to believe that someday I will write a best selling novel, but that doesn't mean I'm going to. I may write a novel, but that doesn't mean it will hit the NY Times bestsellers list.

And since Science is a method of understanding the Universe and ourselves, and not a religion, which was developed by humanbeings and so, therefore, is inherently flawed, it does not pose as the end-all be-all of knowledge and understanding. It remains open-ended to allow revision. Religion, on the other hand, is faith. Blind faith that what you believe, despite there being no evidence for it, is the end-all, be-all truth of the Universe. That makes the two, not just mutually exclusive, but, really, unrelated.

Science can not prove religion, or God's existence. Faith assumes proof. Unlike you, I don't like to make assumptions because they tend to come back to bite me in the ass. Religion is ideological and dogmatic. Science is simply a method of testing the mind's capacities against observable reality. Of interpreting reality into a language which the human mind can understand. There is no ideology or dogma, although some people cling to science dogmatically.

And since religion, or its adherents, or both, have hostorically been the source of much strife and science has only been a tool to cause strife, but not its source; and since science, unlike religion, has many tangible results i.e. tv, microwaves, combustible engines, lasers, electricity, etc. etc. I feel as though I can give science more credit than I can religion. Especially when I see people speaking in tongues or snake dancing or telling me that women should wear dresses and stay at home or blow yourself up or Thou Shalt Not Kill except when its capital punishment or when that country harbors WMD's but not really, they just have oil and they're Muslims, not Christians.

To have faith would require me to erase and unlearn what I have experienced. And that is probably impossible unless, like the character who wanted to be put back into the Matrix, I could ask, though I'm not sure whom or which deity, to do just that. Would he/she/it do that? Would it be right to do that?

If I may be so bold as to interject...

I believe that you do have faith Colorado. Have you ever driven a car over a bridge? Have you ever walked into a dark room? Have you ever dangled from a rope with 1,000 feet of air and gravity between you and the rocks?

Don't confuse faith with faith in religion. Faith that makes sense to someone else, even faith you don't understand is no less real than your faith that the rope will hold, even though I may think you are crazy for trusting your life to that rope.

And don't give me the science behind the rope... I still think you're crazy, no matter how much 'proof' you can supply!

-Joe

 

[Baron]

And not just Christians.

Can you answer any or all of these questions for non-believers? And be prepared if you answer, to defend your answer. Who knows? Maybe you'll just make a believer outta somebody.

If I decide to believe in Jesus Christ, or Mohammed, or whomever, just so I don't go to Hell and go to Heaven (or Paradise or wherever) when I die, then I don't really believe do I? So then why would I choose to believe? How do I choose to believe?

What makes your religion so special that you know its the right one out of all the others out there? How do you know?

Why do you believe?

Explain faith.

Ask as first your heart.. And make the necessary decision.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

If I may be so bold as to interject...

I believe that you do have faith Colorado. Have you ever driven a car over a bridge? Have you ever walked into a dark room? Have you ever dangled from a rope with 1,000 feet of air and gravity between you and the rocks?

Don't confuse faith with faith in religion. Faith that makes sense to someone else, even faith you don't understand is no less real than your faith that the rope will hold, even though I may think you are crazy for trusting your life to that rope.

And don't give me the science behind the rope... I still think you're crazy, no matter how much 'proof' you can supply!

-Joe

Ha! Well, let me put it this way: when I fall off a rock and the only thing between me and eternity is that rope, it isn't like I'm not scared. I'm scared, believe me. But I have to insist about the science of the rope. And the fact that I've fallen more than a few times and everytime the rope held. So there's experience there as well. And I'm not the only person who has ever driven over that bridge. Others in bigger, heavier cars drove over it before me and it didn't break on them. That doesn't mean I don't experience any pucker factor while driving over that bridge, because I don't 100% trust anything - which makes me a great sceptic and a less than content person.

Let me just call what you termed faith as trust. I trust the rope will hold, because it has in the past and because of the science behind the rope. I don't trust it 100%, but you might be right about me being crazy. Climbing is irrational, to say the least. I can't get life insurance, I spend all my money on gear and traveling to remote places, its a lot of work, its dangerous, I've already had my ankle reconstructed, but it makes me feel good about life.

And maybe that's the point of faith? Because it makes people feel good about life. And I sure as hell have no problem with that. Its just when that faith is legislated and clung to as though everyone else on the planet is wrong, that's when it becomes a problem.

 

[AVG-JOE]

If I may be so bold as to interject...

I believe that you do have faith Colorado. Have you ever driven a car over a bridge? Have you ever walked into a dark room? Have you ever dangled from a rope with 1,000 feet of air and gravity between you and the rocks?

Don't confuse faith with faith in religion. Faith that makes sense to someone else, even faith you don't understand is no less real than your faith that the rope will hold, even though I may think you are crazy for trusting your life to that rope.

And don't give me the science behind the rope... I still think you're crazy, no matter how much 'proof' you can supply!

-Joe

Ha! Well, let me put it this way: when I fall off a rock and the only thing between me and eternity is that rope, it isn't like I'm not scared. I'm scared, believe me. But I have to insist about the science of the rope. And the fact that I've fallen more than a few times and everytime the rope held. So there's experience there as well. And I'm not the only person who has ever driven over that bridge. Others in bigger, heavier cars drove over it before me and it didn't break on them. That doesn't mean I don't experience any pucker factor while driving over that bridge, because I don't 100% trust anything - which makes me a great sceptic and a less than content person.

Let me just call what you termed faith as trust. I trust the rope will hold, because it has in the past and because of the science behind the rope. I don't trust it 100%, but you might be right about me being crazy. Climbing is irrational, to say the least. I can't get life insurance, I spend all my money on gear and traveling to remote places, its a lot of work, its dangerous, I've already had my ankle reconstructed, but it makes me feel good about life.

And maybe that's the point of faith? Because it makes people feel good about life. And I sure as hell have no problem with that. Its just when that faith is legislated and clung to as though everyone else on the planet is wrong, that's when it becomes a problem.

I think you just answered your original question, brother.

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

If I may be so bold as to interject...

I believe that you do have faith Colorado. Have you ever driven a car over a bridge? Have you ever walked into a dark room? Have you ever dangled from a rope with 1,000 feet of air and gravity between you and the rocks?

Don't confuse faith with faith in religion. Faith that makes sense to someone else, even faith you don't understand is no less real than your faith that the rope will hold, even though I may think you are crazy for trusting your life to that rope.

And don't give me the science behind the rope... I still think you're crazy, no matter how much 'proof' you can supply!

-Joe

Ha! Well, let me put it this way: when I fall off a rock and the only thing between me and eternity is that rope, it isn't like I'm not scared. I'm scared, believe me. But I have to insist about the science of the rope. And the fact that I've fallen more than a few times and everytime the rope held. So there's experience there as well. And I'm not the only person who has ever driven over that bridge. Others in bigger, heavier cars drove over it before me and it didn't break on them. That doesn't mean I don't experience any pucker factor while driving over that bridge, because I don't 100% trust anything - which makes me a great sceptic and a less than content person.

Let me just call what you termed faith as trust. I trust the rope will hold, because it has in the past and because of the science behind the rope. I don't trust it 100%, but you might be right about me being crazy. Climbing is irrational, to say the least. I can't get life insurance, I spend all my money on gear and traveling to remote places, its a lot of work, its dangerous, I've already had my ankle reconstructed, but it makes me feel good about life.

And maybe that's the point of faith? Because it makes people feel good about life. And I sure as hell have no problem with that. Its just when that faith is legislated and clung to as though everyone else on the planet is wrong, that's when it becomes a problem.

How many of our Christian and Muslim friends cling to their faith in God because they were supported by that faith in the past? My not understanding it does not make it less real for them.

-Joe

 

[Coloradomtnman]

You completely missed my point. Of course I'm not claiming that science has proven that there is a God. Science is MAN made, a creation of the human mind and what the human mind is capable of understanding. What makes you think that the human mind is capable of understanding everything in this universe? In my opinion, man cannot understand everything about the world we live in, therefore to dismiss the idea of a higher being because you think that you do seems pretty arrogant. I said that until you can fully understand everything about the order of the universe, then science only proves what you want it too, since we created it (science).

So what you're saying is that because humankind doesn't know everything about the Universe and doesn't even have the capacity to fully understand everything about the Universe, because science and humankind's perception of reality is inherently flawed, we can safely assume that there is a God? And you call me arrogant?! Why does that make any sense at all? And why not Allah, or any other God?

That logic is akin to believing that since human beings don't know everything about the Universe and don't have the capacity to fully understand everything about the Universe, we are all telepathic. And evolution through natural selection is true. That logic can be used to justify any theory or idea, no matter how ridiculous.

To me, to assume there is a religious godhead at all is arrogant. There is no scientific proof. There is lots of evidence against. There isn't evidence against or for a creator, but the notion is that the creator isn't Yaweh or Sri Krsna, or any other anthropocentic, anthropomorphised God. To assume we're the only intelligent life in the Universe is arrogant. Did God create life elsewhere in the unimaginably vast Universe, or just here?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

What science HAS proven is that the bible is impossible to DISPROVE. Despite the concentrated efforts made over the years to prove that the bible is fallible, a lie, and not based in fact, there has been nothing which definitively has been disproved.

Which tells you something.

Which tells me that the Quran is impossible to disprove. And the Baghavad Gita is impossibly to disprove. And the Illiad, and the Odyssey, and any other ancient text that makes claims of miraculous events.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

How many of our Christian and Muslim friends cling to their faith in God because they were supported by that faith in the past? My not understanding it does not make it less real for them.

-Joe

What tangible way did it support them? It might have supported them emotionally, but I wish that people would acknowledge that that is what faith is about: emotions. People believe because of one reason: they want to. And why do they want to? Because it makes them feel good. It makes them happy. And that's great.

Its not great when they claim that they're way of happiness is the right way and those who don't have that way are wrong, inferior, evil, or what-have-you.

The point of this thread was to have a person of faith either acknowledge the lack of logic, reason, and rational thought of faith and that faith is based entirely on emotion. Or to cause that to be realized by the readers of this thread.

What I learned in the process or as a result, is that faith isn't rational, but it isn't wrong, or inferior, or evil, or what-have-you either. Its just that when its forced or legislated that it becomes a source for wrongdoings.

 

[Newby]

Where is anyone's faith legislated?

 

[Againsheila]

[Cant answer for others. But I believe in miracles because I've seen them myself. I believe the Bible because God revealed to me that it was correct. If He hadn't, I don't know where Id be or what Id believe.

What miracles have you seen?

Any religion is faith. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no tangible proof in any religion that there is an omnipotent being out there.

I have no real problem with religion per se, only those that try and indicate they are somehow better than me because of their belief system. That annoys me...

People believe that they are 'better' than others for a million different reasons, and religion is only one of them. I've spoken to many agnostics and atheists who believe that they are superior because of what they believe/don't believe. So, it's not limited to people of faith. I would also argue that those of the Christian religion that believe they are 'better' than others because of their faith have not learned the true meaning behind the teachings of Christ then.

Amen to that!

 

[AVG-JOE]

You completely missed my point. Of course I'm not claiming that science has proven that there is a God. Science is MAN made, a creation of the human mind and what the human mind is capable of understanding. What makes you think that the human mind is capable of understanding everything in this universe? In my opinion, man cannot understand everything about the world we live in, therefore to dismiss the idea of a higher being because you think that you do seems pretty arrogant. I said that until you can fully understand everything about the order of the universe, then science only proves what you want it too, since we created it (science).

So what you're saying is that because humankind doesn't know everything about the Universe and doesn't even have the capacity to fully understand everything about the Universe, because science and humankind's perception of reality is inherently flawed, we can safely assume that there is a God? And you call me arrogant?! Why does that make any sense at all? And why not Allah, or any other God?

That logic is akin to believing that since human beings don't know everything about the Universe and don't have the capacity to fully understand everything about the Universe, we are all telepathic. And evolution through natural selection is true. That logic can be used to justify any theory or idea, no matter how ridiculous.

To me, to assume there is a religious godhead at all is arrogant. There is no scientific proof. There is lots of evidence against. There isn't evidence against or for a creator, but the notion is that the creator isn't Yaweh or Sri Krsna, or any other anthropocentic, anthropomorphised God. To assume we're the only intelligent life in the Universe is arrogant. Did God create life elsewhere in the unimaginably vast Universe, or just here?

It is only arrogant if my godhead is right and your godhead is wrong and I am willing and powerful enough to kill you to prove it. As long as my god remains a personal choice that is used by me as a personal reason to "live a good life", what's the harm?

I know, I know... The harm comes when religion is used by the powerful to subjugate the masses.

Blame the powerful and blame the masses. Blaming God is like wishing life was "fair".

-Joe

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Where is anyone's faith legislated?

Overturning Roe v Wade. Officially not recognizing homosexual marriage. Polygamy or polygany is illegal. Religious institutions receiving tax exemption. Do you know of any Muslim elected leaders? What about atheist? Do you think an atheist could ever be elected to President? Or a Muslim? We get Christmas off, but Pagan's don't get the Solstice off. There are numerous examples of the Christian-centricism of this nation and how the Christian agenda is legitimized by the government. Why do you think atheists and agnostics are so bitter (Other than they face eternal oblivion)?

 

[AllieBaba]

How many of our Christian and Muslim friends cling to their faith in God because they were supported by that faith in the past? My not understanding it does not make it less real for them.

-Joe

What tangible way did it support them? It might have supported them emotionally, but I wish that people would acknowledge that that is what faith is about: emotions. People believe because of one reason: they want to. And why do they want to? Because it makes them feel good. It makes them happy. And that's great.

Its not great when they claim that they're way of happiness is the right way and those who don't have that way are wrong, inferior, evil, or what-have-you.

The point of this thread was to have a person of faith either acknowledge the lack of logic, reason, and rational thought of faith and that faith is based entirely on emotion. Or to cause that to be realized by the readers of this thread.

What I learned in the process or as a result, is that faith isn't rational, but it isn't wrong, or inferior, or evil, or what-have-you either. Its just that when its forced or legislated that it becomes a source for wrongdoings.

When you prove there is no God, then I'll accept that faith is entirely about emotions.

It's not. It's also about history and science. The story of creation is in the bible. There's more truth to support it than any other theory currently out there. But because you have faith only in man, you refuse to accept it, despite the fact that it's better supported.

Oh well. We all have faith in something, I guess.

 

[Againsheila]

How many of our Christian and Muslim friends cling to their faith in God because they were supported by that faith in the past? My not understanding it does not make it less real for them.

-Joe

What tangible way did it support them? It might have supported them emotionally, but I wish that people would acknowledge that that is what faith is about: emotions. People believe because of one reason: they want to. And why do they want to? Because it makes them feel good. It makes them happy. And that's great.

Its not great when they claim that they're way of happiness is the right way and those who don't have that way are wrong, inferior, evil, or what-have-you.

The point of this thread was to have a person of faith either acknowledge the lack of logic, reason, and rational thought of faith and that faith is based entirely on emotion. Or to cause that to be realized by the readers of this thread.

What I learned in the process or as a result, is that faith isn't rational, but it isn't wrong, or inferior, or evil, or what-have-you either. Its just that when its forced or legislated that it becomes a source for wrongdoings.

See, the point of this thread was to attack religious people, just like the rest of your threads. You aren't interested in learning about religion, you are interested only in denigrating people who don't believe the way you do, and trying to make them come around to your point of view. If a Christian proselytized all over this board for Christianity the way you do against religion, you'd be all over them for trying to covert someone, but it's okay for you to try to convert religious people to non-religious people.

People like you are the reason this world is in so much trouble. You can't just accept that some people don't believe like you, you must do your best to make them join you.

If you were a muslim, you'd be out killing non-muslims and I believe if you were a Christian, you'd be a fundamentalist and doing the things you hate the most about people of faith. For some people, their religion is a crutch, for you, I think your agnosticism, or atheism is a crutch, it's all you have to make you feel better than someone else.

Guess what? You aren't any better than me, or any religious person based on your beliefs. You want to be better, you're going to have to go out and actually do something that's better instead of lording it over those of faith here on this message board.

 

[AVG-JOE]

How many of our Christian and Muslim friends cling to their faith in God because they were supported by that faith in the past? My not understanding it does not make it less real for them.

-Joe

What tangible way did it support them? It might have supported them emotionally, but I wish that people would acknowledge that that is what faith is about: emotions. People believe because of one reason: they want to. And why do they want to? Because it makes them feel good. It makes them happy. And that's great.

Its not great when they claim that they're way of happiness is the right way and those who don't have that way are wrong, inferior, evil, or what-have-you.

The point of this thread was to have a person of faith either acknowledge the lack of logic, reason, and rational thought of faith and that faith is based entirely on emotion. Or to cause that to be realized by the readers of this thread.

What I learned in the process or as a result, is that faith isn't rational, but it isn't wrong, or inferior, or evil, or what-have-you either. Its just that when its forced or legislated that it becomes a source for wrongdoings.

Emotional support is a powerful tool, don't discount it. Strong people have been easily manipulated by their emotions. Remember also that unless a government gives power to someone who thinks you're evil, the only other person who can give them power is you. Religious people can't understand why anyone thinks they're wrong - and they shouldn't have to. That's why religious tolerance is so distasteful to most religious people, and non-religious people must protect tolerance.

-Joe

 

[Coloradomtnman]

It is only arrogant if my godhead is right and your godhead is wrong and I am willing and powerful enough to kill you to prove it. As long as my god remains a personal choice that is used by me as a personal reason to "live a good life", what's the harm?

I know, I know... The harm comes when religion is used by the powerful to subjugate the masses.

Blame the powerful and blame the masses. Blaming God is like wishing life was "fair".

-Joe

Conceded.

 

[Huggyface]

Sometimes it's just nice to have your hand held and be spoonfed. Beliefs are wonderful

 

[Coloradomtnman]

What I learned in the process or as a result, is that faith isn't rational, but it isn't wrong, or inferior, or evil, or what-have-you either. Its just that when its forced or legislated that it becomes a source for wrongdoings.

See, the point of this thread was to attack religious people, just like the rest of your threads. You aren't interested in learning about religion, you are interested only in denigrating people who don't believe the way you do, and trying to make them come around to your point of view. If a Christian proselytized all over this board for Christianity the way you do against religion, you'd be all over them for trying to covert someone, but it's okay for you to try to convert religious people to non-religious people.

People like you are the reason this world is in so much trouble. You can't just accept that some people don't believe like you, you must do your best to make them join you.

If you were a muslim, you'd be out killing non-muslims and I believe if you were a Christian, you'd be a fundamentalist and doing the things you hate the most about people of faith. For some people, their religion is a crutch, for you, I think your agnosticism, or atheism is a crutch, it's all you have to make you feel better than someone else.

Guess what? You aren't any better than me, or any religious person based on your beliefs. You want to be better, you're going to have to go out and actually do something that's better instead of lording it over those of faith here on this message board.

What's that say in bold above your angry ranting? For someone who didn't want to learn, I seemed to have failed in not learning anything. Geez, what a failure I am.