Fast & Furious Guns Will Be Used In Crimes For 'Years To Come.'

[TheDecepticon]

Let's see if I can enlighten you...a possibility made miniscule due to your rabid hatred of the truth....

1. "It turns out, however, that Fast and Furious was not the first anti-smuggling case in which ATF agents used such a technique. Firearms were allowed into Mexico during two earlier operations, including a 2006-07 Tucson case known as Operation Wide Receiver. Those investigations were carried out quietly during the George W. Bush administration, without public controversy.

In Fast and Furious, an agent named John Dodson recognized early on that allowing guns to travel south could lead to bloodshed and scandal. What made the strategy especially dubious was the lack of a plan to follow the weapons. Agents used wiretaps and once installed a tracking device in the stock of a gun. But, mostly, firearms simply disappeared. And Mexican authorities, who were pleading with the U.S. government to prevent the exportation of assault rifles, had no idea."
ATF gun probe: Behind the fall of Operation Fast and Furious

a. A careful reading of same will explain that both administrations seem to have had the same objective...to prevent or curtail the use of 'straw gun sales' that resulted in guns winding up in the hads of the cartels.

But....they were very different is several important ways:

b. "Wide Receiver’s notion of tracing was night-and-day different from the tracing involved in the reckless gun-walking approach employed by Fast & Furious. Obviously, however, Democrats hope that if they get enough help from their friends in the media, the public will miss the distinction....some crucial distinctions between to two ATF operations. Wide Receiver actually involved not gun-walking but controlled delivery. Unlike gun-walking, which seems (for good reason) to have been unheard of until Fast & Furious, controlled delivery is a very common law enforcement tactic....Fast & Furious involved uncontrolled deliveries — of thousands of weapons. It was an utterly heedless program in which the feds allowed these guns to be sold to straw purchasers — often leaning on reluctant gun dealers to make the sales."
Fast & Furious Was . . . Bush’s Fault - By Andrew C. McCarthy - The Corner - National Review Online


2. For some reason, the Bush administration project had better restrictions and fail-safe considerations...and stopped the plan when guns continued to get through.

a. Was that because the ATF under Bush was smarter?

b. Actually...in the OP you learn that the real reason was that the Obama administration plan was designed to actually allow functioning guns to get to the drug cartels.
Get it?
The plan did a poor job of tracking the guns because it was designed to do just that!!!

Why?

Because the Obama-Holder D o J wanted to be able to point to the cartel-owned guns as a reason to blunt the recent conservative Supreme Court 2nd amendment decisons.

3. Now that CBS (will wonders never cease?) revealed the emails that indicate this, Obama-apologists, that would be you, pretend not to understand this....

...Somehow, when it indicts the Leftists, you guys can never seem to connect the dots.

So, let's review:
a. While the Bush project controlled the gun movement, the Obama-Holder plan allowed the guns to 'walk.'

b. In what seemed to be the usual Obama-incompetence, there was actually an ulterior, and sinister, motive: to undermine by surreptitious means what the Leftists saw the Supreme Court validate, the rights of Americans under the Constitution.


On the other hand, I do have a certain amount of sympathy for the Left when it has to rely on someone with your limited ability to defend it....
__________________

1. Carried out quietly and without public controversy. Nice. Isn't that just another way of saying you didn't get caught? Congratulations. You HID your failure well. Do you want a cookie for that or will a "heckuva job" suffice? Bush let the guns walk too. UNDISPUTED FACT.

From the article I posted, had you bothered to read it....

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into 2007. The ATF was informed of a suspicious gun purchase by licensed dealer Mike Detty in Tucson, Arizona. He was then hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division. With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[18] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[17] They were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[6][19]
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
CAN YOU READ? Does that sound like they "controlled" the gun movement?

The difference here is between 450 guns under Bush and 700 under Obama, conducted by the SAME ATF personnel.

2. Better restrictions and fail safe policies? Like watching the guns go over the border and waiting for Mexican officials to pick up the slack, which they didn't? That's ALMOST as smart as letting our allies capture Osama Bin Laden at Tora Bora, isn't it?

Face it, this isn't an embarrassment for Obama in any other respect that he didn't CLEAN UP YOUR MESS fast enough or to your liking.

FACTS:
450 Guns went into Mexico untracked under Bush.
Same personnel that conducted that failure, conducted the SAME one that you're bitching about now.
Obama actually PROSECUTED CRIMINALS that the Bush administration let walk in Operation Wide Receiver.

Come back when you figure out how something that started under Bush, didn't result in ANY prosecutions or red flags for that administration, is now a HUGE problem for Obama and Holder, who HALTED it when they found out about it?

Your lock step acceptance of the views of the Left make you appear more like iron filings in a magnetic field than a thinking human being.

Read

the

emails.

They document exactly what I say in OP....
The Obama-Holder plan was not about guns....it was about new restrictions on gun owners.

Need a review? Sure...from the CBS story:
"...emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". "
"...ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."


Neither the provenance nor the objective of the two operations were the same.


One was designed to stem the flow of guns.

The other to subvert the Constitution.
That is the perennial motivation of the Left.

I understand that the difference is too...what ...nuanced...subtle for you...but the American people will understand it.


I understand your desire to defend Obama and Holder, as the three of you share the same
delusions of adequacy.
And...I do get a chuckle out of you tap-dancing as fast as you can.



The emails.
Read 'em and try again.

Tap dancing? I posted facts. YOU posted your OPINION.
I proved you were a fucking liar, didn't I?
You said Bush CONTROLLED the guns. I proved 450 walked huh?
That makes you a LIAR. Why should anyone trust a LIAR?

Fucking post numbers...not vague unsupported shit like Obama is trying to "subvert the constitution"

Holy shit...if he was up to anything like that, you rat felching CONZ would be all over him like stupid on Rush. I mean look how far you went over Clinton's fucking blowjob.

 

[PoliticalChic]

1. Carried out quietly and without public controversy. Nice. Isn't that just another way of saying you didn't get caught? Congratulations. You HID your failure well. Do you want a cookie for that or will a "heckuva job" suffice? Bush let the guns walk too. UNDISPUTED FACT.

From the article I posted, had you bothered to read it....

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into 2007. The ATF was informed of a suspicious gun purchase by licensed dealer Mike Detty in Tucson, Arizona. He was then hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division. With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[18] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[17] They were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[6][19]
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
CAN YOU READ? Does that sound like they "controlled" the gun movement?

The difference here is between 450 guns under Bush and 700 under Obama, conducted by the SAME ATF personnel.

2. Better restrictions and fail safe policies? Like watching the guns go over the border and waiting for Mexican officials to pick up the slack, which they didn't? That's ALMOST as smart as letting our allies capture Osama Bin Laden at Tora Bora, isn't it?

Face it, this isn't an embarrassment for Obama in any other respect that he didn't CLEAN UP YOUR MESS fast enough or to your liking.

FACTS:
450 Guns went into Mexico untracked under Bush.
Same personnel that conducted that failure, conducted the SAME one that you're bitching about now.
Obama actually PROSECUTED CRIMINALS that the Bush administration let walk in Operation Wide Receiver.

Come back when you figure out how something that started under Bush, didn't result in ANY prosecutions or red flags for that administration, is now a HUGE problem for Obama and Holder, who HALTED it when they found out about it?

Your lock step acceptance of the views of the Left make you appear more like iron filings in a magnetic field than a thinking human being.

Read

the

emails.

They document exactly what I say in OP....
The Obama-Holder plan was not about guns....it was about new restrictions on gun owners.

Need a review? Sure...from the CBS story:
"...emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". "
"...ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."


Neither the provenance nor the objective of the two operations were the same.


One was designed to stem the flow of guns.

The other to subvert the Constitution.
That is the perennial motivation of the Left.

I understand that the difference is too...what ...nuanced...subtle for you...but the American people will understand it.


I understand your desire to defend Obama and Holder, as the three of you share the same
delusions of adequacy.
And...I do get a chuckle out of you tap-dancing as fast as you can.



The emails.
Read 'em and try again.

Tap dancing? I posted facts. YOU posted your OPINION.
I proved you were a fucking liar, didn't I?
You said Bush CONTROLLED the guns. I proved 450 walked huh?
That makes you a LIAR. Why should anyone trust a LIAR?

Fucking post numbers...not vague unsupported shit like Obama is trying to "subvert the constitution"

Holy shit...if he was up to anything like that, you rat felching CONZ would be all over him like stupid on Rush. I mean look how far you went over Clinton's fucking blowjob.

Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.


The 'Constitution' should be capitalized.
You're probably not aware that the Constitution is important to some folks.

And, your language...my, my....but that's what happens when you're losing, huh?


So...you didn't read the emails?
You did...and you didn't realize that they were the pertinent 'facts'?
You're not very bright, are you?


Since you insist, "I posted facts. YOU posted your OPINION."
You rely on wikipedia?
My explanation of the different operations was via Andrew C. McCarthy.

This might provide some insight as to why he would be a good source:
ANDREW C. McCARTHY is a senior fellow at National Review Institute. He is the author of the bestseller, Willful Blindness: A Memoir of the Jihad (Encounter Books 2008). He was previously the legal-affairs editor at National Review and the chairman of the Center for Law & Counterterrorism at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

For eighteen years, Mr. McCarthy was an Assistant United States Attorney in the Southern District of New York. From 1993 through 1995, he led the terrorism prosecution against Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and eleven others in connection with the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and a plot to bomb New York City landmarks. For five years, he was the Chief Assistant U.S. Attorney of the Southern District’s satellite office in White Plains, and, following the 9/11 attacks, he supervised the Justice Department’s Command Post near Ground Zero in New York City.

In 2004, Mr. McCarthy served at the Pentagon as a Special Assistant to the Deputy Secretary of Defense. He has also been an Adjunct Professor at both Fordham University’s School of Law and New York Law School, as well as a Deputy United States Marshal in the federal Witness Protection Program.

Mr. McCarthy is the recipient of numerous awards, including the Justice Department’s highest honors: the Attorney General’s Exceptional Service Award (1996) and Distinguished Service Award (1988). In addition to being featured regularly in National Review, Mr. McCarthy’s articles have also appeared in The Wall Street Journal, Commentary, The New Criterion, The Weekly Standard, USA Today and many other publications. He is frequently featured as a commentator on television and nationally syndicated radio broadcasts.
National Review Institute | Board of Directors

Think he might have some expertise in the area?


Now, as far as numbers of guns....missing the point seems to be your specialty. In fact, thoughts seem to tumble in your head, making and breaking alliances like underpants in a dryer without 'Cling Free'.

The CBS exposure explained the reason for the 'Fast and Furious' operation...and that was very different from that of the Bush era operation.

Now, why are you trying to dodge the distinction? Afraid?
You must feel that it puts Obama-Holder in a terrible light....
....and in that, you would be correct.

But, on the whole...what can one say about you?
Only that the gates are down, the lights are flashing, but the train isn't coming.

 

[WillowTree]

This is serious stuff and no one gives a shit, post some garbage about Herman Cain or Newt and the crowd goes wild.......

well the retarded libtards ain't going to go there, they know obama and his incompetent folks ain't got no fucking defense. so they gonna make quiet like da hooty hooty owl dew.

 

[WillowTree]

1. Carried out quietly and without public controversy. Nice. Isn't that just another way of saying you didn't get caught? Congratulations. You HID your failure well. Do you want a cookie for that or will a "heckuva job" suffice? Bush let the guns walk too. UNDISPUTED FACT.

From the article I posted, had you bothered to read it....

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into 2007. The ATF was informed of a suspicious gun purchase by licensed dealer Mike Detty in Tucson, Arizona. He was then hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division. With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[18] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[17] They were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[6][19]
ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
CAN YOU READ? Does that sound like they "controlled" the gun movement?

The difference here is between 450 guns under Bush and 700 under Obama, conducted by the SAME ATF personnel.

2. Better restrictions and fail safe policies? Like watching the guns go over the border and waiting for Mexican officials to pick up the slack, which they didn't? That's ALMOST as smart as letting our allies capture Osama Bin Laden at Tora Bora, isn't it?

Face it, this isn't an embarrassment for Obama in any other respect that he didn't CLEAN UP YOUR MESS fast enough or to your liking.

FACTS:
450 Guns went into Mexico untracked under Bush.
Same personnel that conducted that failure, conducted the SAME one that you're bitching about now.
Obama actually PROSECUTED CRIMINALS that the Bush administration let walk in Operation Wide Receiver.

Come back when you figure out how something that started under Bush, didn't result in ANY prosecutions or red flags for that administration, is now a HUGE problem for Obama and Holder, who HALTED it when they found out about it?

Your lock step acceptance of the views of the Left make you appear more like iron filings in a magnetic field than a thinking human being.

Read

the

emails.

They document exactly what I say in OP....
The Obama-Holder plan was not about guns....it was about new restrictions on gun owners.

Need a review? Sure...from the CBS story:
"...emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". "
"...ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."


Neither the provenance nor the objective of the two operations were the same.


One was designed to stem the flow of guns.

The other to subvert the Constitution.
That is the perennial motivation of the Left.

I understand that the difference is too...what ...nuanced...subtle for you...but the American people will understand it.


I understand your desire to defend Obama and Holder, as the three of you share the same
delusions of adequacy.
And...I do get a chuckle out of you tap-dancing as fast as you can.



The emails.
Read 'em and try again.

Tap dancing? I posted facts. YOU posted your OPINION.
I proved you were a fucking liar, didn't I?
You said Bush CONTROLLED the guns. I proved 450 walked huh?
That makes you a LIAR. Why should anyone trust a LIAR?

Fucking post numbers...not vague unsupported shit like Obama is trying to "subvert the constitution"

Holy shit...if he was up to anything like that, you rat felching CONZ would be all over him like stupid on Rush. I mean look how far you went over Clinton's fucking blowjob.

like white on rice.

 

[Avatar4321]

Holder and all of his criminal cronies need to go. Nothing less can be accepted. Unless they arrest him.

His boss needs to go too.