Faith Healing

[Coloradomtnman]

not all of us run to the news to announce the miracles in our life. We keep it sacred. Especially since there are people who will mock such experiences

Reporters don't need to interview the families, only the doctors, coroners, investigators, witnesses, etc.

That NO ONE has ever reported on these miraculous events strains credulity and your response sounds like a convenient excuse. Additionally, why wouldn't those involved not want to share the "good news" with verifiable, indisputable evidence of the righteousness of their faith?

Why can't one of the faithful ever answer ALL of my questions? Why is it they cherry pick which ones they want to answer and then answer with a superficial sound byte like the one above? I want a real discussion and can never get one from the faithful. Why is that? I am challenging your beliefs. Are none of you up to the challenge?

No you don't, you want to ridicule other people's beliefs.

Not up to the challenge? Just say so.

It's not a challenge, it's baiting.

However you want to rationalize it.

 

[PostmodernProph]

There are many people of faith who believe that their particular deity can and does heal people miraculously. Probably more than a few of the faithful on USMB believe in faith healing. They believe their God cures cancer, autoimmune diseases, congenital defects (such as significantly different lengths of limbs), and debilitating conditions (such as injuries that leave one crippled), blindness, deafness, diabetes - you name it. Except AIDS. No one believes their God cures the perverts, dopers, the promiscuous, or those inadvertently infected with HIV (blood transfusions are against God). There is no evidence of such healings beyond personal anecdotes and ancient writings, but that's the power of belief - it can overcome such lack of evidence.

So...

My question to them is: Why doesn't your God heal amputations? None. Zero. Never. No one has ever re-grown an arm, a leg, a toe or a finger, or even part of a toe or finger. Never re-grown an eye or had a terrible disfigurement healed. No injury or condition so visible that were it healed, it would simply be obviously miraculously healed, has ever been healed. Why not?

How can that be and you still believe in faith healing?

I think there is a really simple explanation for why that has never happened. It easily explains why visibly obvious conditions or injuries have never been healed. Because there is no such thing as faith healing.

But that explanation could be wrong. If you think so, why?

I think you overlook the obvious.....there are many examples where people say its miraculous that X didn't get his head or arm amputated in an accident.....why bother to heal an amputation when you could prevent it in the first place.....

that being said, I believe it is wrong to ignore medicine in favor of faith healing....I imagine God greeting folks in heaven saying, "you idiot!....why do you think I sent you to my favorite doctor!".......

 

[S.J.]

not all of us run to the news to announce the miracles in our life. We keep it sacred. Especially since there are people who will mock such experiences

Reporters don't need to interview the families, only the doctors, coroners, investigators, witnesses, etc.

That NO ONE has ever reported on these miraculous events strains credulity and your response sounds like a convenient excuse. Additionally, why wouldn't those involved not want to share the "good news" with verifiable, indisputable evidence of the righteousness of their faith?

Why can't one of the faithful ever answer ALL of my questions? Why is it they cherry pick which ones they want to answer and then answer with a superficial sound byte like the one above? I want a real discussion and can never get one from the faithful. Why is that? I am challenging your beliefs. Are none of you up to the challenge?

No you don't, you want to ridicule other people's beliefs.

Not up to the challenge? Just say so.

It's not a challenge, it's baiting.

However you want to rationalize it.

Your mocking and ridiculing proves me right.

 

[guno]

Reporters don't need to interview the families, only the doctors, coroners, investigators, witnesses, etc.

That NO ONE has ever reported on these miraculous events strains credulity and your response sounds like a convenient excuse. Additionally, why wouldn't those involved not want to share the "good news" with verifiable, indisputable evidence of the righteousness of their faith?

Why can't one of the faithful ever answer ALL of my questions? Why is it they cherry pick which ones they want to answer and then answer with a superficial sound byte like the one above? I want a real discussion and can never get one from the faithful. Why is that? I am challenging your beliefs. Are none of you up to the challenge?

No you don't, you want to ridicule other people's beliefs.

Not up to the challenge? Just say so.

It's not a challenge, it's baiting.

However you want to rationalize it.

Your mocking and ridiculing proves me right.

This is mocking

 

[PostmodernProph]

No you don't, you want to ridicule other people's beliefs.

Not up to the challenge? Just say so.

It's not a challenge, it's baiting.

However you want to rationalize it.

Your mocking and ridiculing proves me right.

This is mocking

I see nothing there which is any more ridiculous than your posts.....

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Reporters don't need to interview the families, only the doctors, coroners, investigators, witnesses, etc.

That NO ONE has ever reported on these miraculous events strains credulity and your response sounds like a convenient excuse. Additionally, why wouldn't those involved not want to share the "good news" with verifiable, indisputable evidence of the righteousness of their faith?

Why can't one of the faithful ever answer ALL of my questions? Why is it they cherry pick which ones they want to answer and then answer with a superficial sound byte like the one above? I want a real discussion and can never get one from the faithful. Why is that? I am challenging your beliefs. Are none of you up to the challenge?

No you don't, you want to ridicule other people's beliefs.

Not up to the challenge? Just say so.

It's not a challenge, it's baiting.

However you want to rationalize it.

Your mocking and ridiculing proves me right.

So when someone asks pointed questions about your beliefs, that's mocking and ridiculing? That's a convenient excuse for avoiding those probing questions...

 

[S.J.]

No you don't, you want to ridicule other people's beliefs.

Not up to the challenge? Just say so.

It's not a challenge, it's baiting.

However you want to rationalize it.

Your mocking and ridiculing proves me right.

So when someone asks pointed questions about your beliefs, that's mocking and ridiculing? That's a convenient excuse for avoiding those probing questions...

No, the mocking and ridiculing happens when your target answers your bait questions, thinking you are serious about having a respectful dialogue.

 

[shart_attack]

The power to heal doesn't necessarily and exclusively come from God.

Satan can heal people, too.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

REVELATION CHAPTER 13

 

[Luddly Neddite]

God works in mysterious ways.

In other words, it's horseshit.

That's my immediate reaction as well BUT ...

Assuming that they are NOT praying over their dying child, which I think should be a capital crime, so-called "faith healing" may do some good for those who believe it.

I do know that there are believers here on the board just as there are some who actually believe they can and should pray against the devil and for "good" angels. I don't read the miles of delusional garbage they post but if it makes them happy, who cares?

And when their god doesn't come through, they have the very familiar platitudes to fall back on.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Speaking of praying against the devil and FOR those "good" angels, when I left Tucson, I knew I had hit the mid-west when I dialed the car radio and actually heard people talking about it.

Sarah Palin actually had "prayer warriors" who were successful in praying her into the vice-presidency.

Oh wait ... Another failure.

But hey, it was prayer that exorcized the "witches", right?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Didn't mean to hijack your thread @Coloradomtnman

Remember the movie, Steve Martin? Great song but it works as a love song too.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Not up to the challenge? Just say so.

It's not a challenge, it's baiting.

However you want to rationalize it.

Your mocking and ridiculing proves me right.

So when someone asks pointed questions about your beliefs, that's mocking and ridiculing? That's a convenient excuse for avoiding those probing questions...

No, the mocking and ridiculing happens when your target answers your bait questions, thinking you are serious about having a respectful dialogue.

You assume you will be mocked and ridiculed for your beliefs regarding faith healing? Why would that be? Because they are deserving of such? Because, deep down, you understand that from a rational perspective, belief in faith healing is ridiculous? That believing in faith healing has no evidential basis, no logical consistency, and no sound argument?

Have I mocked you yet? Have I ridiculed you are the other responders on this thread for their defense of faith healing? Or have I simply pointed out flaws in that defense and asked questions via the Socratic method?

That you attempt to make this personal suggests that you don't truly believe that the belief faith healing can stand up on its own under critical scrutiny and so you deflect or attack the questioner in a mistakenly preemptive way so that you don't have to come face-to-face with your own doubts. I could be wrong about this but you make no attempt to show me that I am and have only attacked what you assume to be my motives.

That you come on this thread to make such weak accusations, then defend them without any solid basis to do so says more about your convictions and their basis than it does about my motivations to start this thread.

Please stop wasting my time...unless you truly wish to communicate about the OP.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

There are many people of faith who believe that their particular deity can and does heal people miraculously. Probably more than a few of the faithful on USMB believe in faith healing. They believe their God cures cancer, autoimmune diseases, congenital defects (such as significantly different lengths of limbs), and debilitating conditions (such as injuries that leave one crippled), blindness, deafness, diabetes - you name it. Except AIDS. No one believes their God cures the perverts, dopers, the promiscuous, or those inadvertently infected with HIV (blood transfusions are against God). There is no evidence of such healings beyond personal anecdotes and ancient writings, but that's the power of belief - it can overcome such lack of evidence.

So...

My question to them is: Why doesn't your God heal amputations? None. Zero. Never. No one has ever re-grown an arm, a leg, a toe or a finger, or even part of a toe or finger. Never re-grown an eye or had a terrible disfigurement healed. No injury or condition so visible that were it healed, it would simply be obviously miraculously healed, has ever been healed. Why not?

How can that be and you still believe in faith healing?

I think there is a really simple explanation for why that has never happened. It easily explains why visibly obvious conditions or injuries have never been healed. Because there is no such thing as faith healing.

But that explanation could be wrong. If you think so, why?

I think you overlook the obvious.....there are many examples where people say its miraculous that X didn't get his head or arm amputated in an accident.....why bother to heal an amputation when you could prevent it in the first place.....

that being said, I believe it is wrong to ignore medicine in favor of faith healing....I imagine God greeting folks in heaven saying, "you idiot!....why do you think I sent you to my favorite doctor!".......

Then why heal the sick or disabled when such conditions could be prevented? Why allow the innocent to be harmed when it could be prevented? Your argument leads to some interesting questions regarding the existence of suffering, free will, God's omniscience, and there being a Plan that He has for all of us despite our free will.

 

[koshergrl]

If he made it that obvious, there would be no need for faith, which is what He is looking for in us. If you had any faith, you might get a glimpse of God's power but I don't think your arrogance would allow it. Too bad for you. You're your own worst enemy.

The problem, of course, is that attitudes such as yours causes children to die from preventable disease because parents will withhold competent medical care in place of prayer.

Fortunately, these cases generally wind up in court with the parents being held accountable.

This is a classic example of sloppy, uneducated fallacy posing as *information*.

May I quote you to my friends and relatives so we can bemoan the state of education in this country?

 

[koshergrl]

"
"Among the challenges to current thinking are the many documented cases of unexplained healing. Dr. Andrew Weil’s book “Spontaneous Healing” is a log of numerous cases that cannot be accounted for by our contemporary medical science.

"One poignant example was a 10-year-old boy, call him Steve, with a usually fatal osteosarcoma. This is a bone cancer usually treated by amputation of a limb. This treatment, the standard of care, was reasonably and responsibly recommended by a top cancer center doctor in New York.

"However, rather than having the recommended amputation of his leg to save his life, Steve and his parents declined this option. Instead, they chose to return to the supportive community of his family, friends and home in a remote Idaho town. There, they would let things run their course.

"In the view of his cancer doctors this was a suicidal choice, maybe even child neglect. Without treatment, he was expected to die, likely in a year or less.

"Many years later, a researcher on spontaneous healing found Steve. Despite the grim prognosis, the boy with bone cancer was in his 20s, alive and well, and cancer free.

"When the researcher contacted Steve’s cancer doctor in New York to verify the original diagnosis, she was initially greeted professionally and pleasantly.

"However, once she told him that this former patient was still alive despite not taking treatment, the doctor cursed and slammed down the phone on her.

"Apparently, the occurrence of such a surprising healing, perhaps best described as a miracle, was an unacceptable shock to his belief system."

Miracles happen in medicine Impact Newsletter December 12 2013 UTMB

 

[koshergrl]

"Various polls peg U.S. belief in miracles at roughly 80 percent. One survey suggested that 73 percent of U.S. physicians believe in miracles, and 55 percent claim to have personally witnessed treatment results they consider miraculous."

Again, the allegedly *scientific* bloc proving how closed-minded, bigoted and unspeakably stupid they truly are.

Are Miracles Real Craig S. Keener

 

[koshergrl]

"And the reports in these countries appear to be merely the tip of the iceberg. The survey did not include China, where one report from the China Christian Council over a decade ago attributed roughly half of all new Christian conversions to "faith healing experiences." Another report from a different source in China suggested an even higher figure. Clearly many people around the world experience what they consider miracles, sometimes in life-changing ways.

"What are we to make of such claims? At the very least, they testify that many people around the world today are experiencing cures in a context of deep religious faith. Numerous medical studies have shown that faith and faith communities provide a coping resource that often facilitates better health outcomes. A number of these global reports, however, exceed even our best current expectations for what "faith" can produce. In September 2010, Southern Medical Journal published an article showing that some people in Mozambique, tested before and after prayer, experienced significant recovery of hearing or eyesight. The Medical Bureau at Lourdes has long examined evidence for extraordinary recoveries.

"Most stunning to me on a personal level were sincere eyewitness claims from people that I or my wife have long known and trusted, including everything from cures of blindness to restoration from apparent death."

Are Miracles Real Craig S. Keener

 

[Luddly Neddite]

If he made it that obvious, there would be no need for faith, which is what He is looking for in us. If you had any faith, you might get a glimpse of God's power but I don't think your arrogance would allow it. Too bad for you. You're your own worst enemy.

The problem, of course, is that attitudes such as yours causes children to die from preventable disease because parents will withhold competent medical care in place of prayer.

Fortunately, these cases generally wind up in court with the parents being held accountable.

This is a classic example of sloppy, uneducated fallacy posing as *information*.

May I quote you to my friends and relatives so we can bemoan the state of education in this country?

You're genuinely delusional, crazy, frootier than a nutcake.

Anyone else wanna agree with koshergrl that praying over your sick child is the way to go?

 

[koshergrl]

If he made it that obvious, there would be no need for faith, which is what He is looking for in us. If you had any faith, you might get a glimpse of God's power but I don't think your arrogance would allow it. Too bad for you. You're your own worst enemy.

The problem, of course, is that attitudes such as yours causes children to die from preventable disease because parents will withhold competent medical care in place of prayer.

Fortunately, these cases generally wind up in court with the parents being held accountable.

This is a classic example of sloppy, uneducated fallacy posing as *information*.

May I quote you to my friends and relatives so we can bemoan the state of education in this country?

You're genuinely delusional, crazy, frootier than a nutcake.

Anyone else wanna agree with koshergrl that praying over your sick child is the way to go?

Yeees...let's listen to the guy who said this:

"...in truth, our world would be much better off if they were just lined up and shot." Luddly Dead child found on border US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Really. Let's hear more about how much you care about Christian children, you psycho.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

If he made it that obvious, there would be no need for faith, which is what He is looking for in us. If you had any faith, you might get a glimpse of God's power but I don't think your arrogance would allow it. Too bad for you. You're your own worst enemy.

The problem, of course, is that attitudes such as yours causes children to die from preventable disease because parents will withhold competent medical care in place of prayer.

Fortunately, these cases generally wind up in court with the parents being held accountable.

This is a classic example of sloppy, uneducated fallacy posing as *information*.

May I quote you to my friends and relatives so we can bemoan the state of education in this country?

You're genuinely delusional, crazy, frootier than a nutcake.

Anyone else wanna agree with koshergrl that praying over your sick child is the way to go?

Yeees...let's listen to the guy who said this:

"...in truth, our world would be much better off if they were just lined up and shot." Luddly Dead child found on border US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Really. Let's hear more about how much you care about Christian children, you psycho.

I've made no secret that I think you evangelicals are crazy and our world would not miss your hate.

YOU, however, have just written that its okay to pray over a dying child rather than seek medical care.

As usual, you hate children and don't care if they die when they could be saved.