Fair Tax

[Oldandtired]

Having been downsized from a family business where the wife of the President, who worked part time i.e. less than 20 hours a week and made full time wages and a President who's only function in the business was to enter time cards on a spreadsheet which could have been accomplished by an $8/hour employee all the while making $2k/week, I would have to say that I would prefer a country where no one can get laid off or fired. But, that is because at the moment, I'm ticked off and quite frankly, I find it very difficult not to laugh when I am told the President and his wife are running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Immie

Yep...and they got what they deserved.
Capitalism at work.

Thoise companies that laid off 75% of their employees while the owners vacationed in France? What chance in hell do they have of securing top talent when the market rebounds.

Capitalism at work. We reap the rewards, we suffer the consequences...of PERSONAL DECISIONS.

I would have it no other way...and I was 23 and homeless...just lost my job...a mere 28 years ago.

Truthfully, I would have it no other way either. I don't know what will happen to my previous employer. Part of me wishes them a quick turn around, the other part says, I'd love to drive by their shop in three months and see them out of business. But, it was a risk I took when I went to work for a small family business.

Immie

As I did 28 years ago...you lost your job and you resent your employer...but you blame yourself for taking the position to begin with. And that is why you will be successful....as you now will not make the same mistake again...as you blame your decision making.

Others, such as those responding on this thread, will continue to make the same mistakes as they do not see it as their mistake..they see it as the employers greediness.....

And next time they will HOPE that their employer is not as greedy....and if they are, again, it is not their fault...and they will blame business owners all over again...and, of course, be unemployed again.

 

[Immanuel]

Yep...and they got what they deserved.
Capitalism at work.

Thoise companies that laid off 75% of their employees while the owners vacationed in France? What chance in hell do they have of securing top talent when the market rebounds.

Capitalism at work. We reap the rewards, we suffer the consequences...of PERSONAL DECISIONS.

I would have it no other way...and I was 23 and homeless...just lost my job...a mere 28 years ago.

Truthfully, I would have it no other way either. I don't know what will happen to my previous employer. Part of me wishes them a quick turn around, the other part says, I'd love to drive by their shop in three months and see them out of business. But, it was a risk I took when I went to work for a small family business.

Immie

As I did 28 years ago...you lost your job and you resent your employer...but you blame yourself for taking the position to begin with. And that is why you will be successful....as you now will not make the same mistake again...as you blame your decision making.

Others, such as those responding on this thread, will continue to make the same mistakes as they do not see it as their mistake..they see it as the employers greediness.....

And next time they will HOPE that their employer is not as greedy....and if they are, again, it is not their fault...and they will blame business owners all over again...and, of course, be unemployed again.

Actually, I might make the same mistake again. I happen to like working for a family business and if I have the opportunity to again I might do so again. It is worth the risk, although there are other fields I would like to explore.

Also, I don't think where I made my mistake was taking the job in the first place. My mistake was indicating to the owner that the cash flow problem stemmed from paying $2k/week for an $8/hour job and full time wages for a part time employee among other things was killing the business. I think I would still be employed if I had kept my mouth shut.

Of course, I am sleeping better these past couple of weeks than I have in a long, long time. It is kind of nice not having to worry about whether or not I can meet payroll this week.

Immie

 

[Mr. Peepers]

If your desire is to move up, why take a position that has no career path?

EVERY position has the potential of a career path.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

SO ready to blame those evil rich greedy business owners....somehow forgetting that those evil rich greedy business owners are smart enough to become rich.

I do. On the backs of those that give their blood, sweat, talent, time (including personal and family time - oh yes, I've actually been at the office until 1am before) and loyalty for years and years and get NOTHING in return but a slammed door in the face. Hardly any employers give a rats' ass about their employees. Even the good ones. You can deny it up and down all day, but it is true.

 

[Political Junky]

Wealthy Americans, who live off their investments, pay 15% tax. That's the limit on investment income.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

You truly think they get rich by pissing off quality employees?

Yes, why then is it common practice to fire a loyal, talented employee that knows their job and the company inside and out in order to pay some schlub $10 an hour in order to make bigger profits? It happens ALL THE TIME.

 

[uscitizen]

Career paths in jobs now?

Who ya kiddin?

With all the reorganizations to the point of disorganization there is not longer many clear career paths.
Heck the last major company I worked for I had to re apply for my job ever year for the last few years there.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Again...personal decisions.
If your desire is to move up, why take a position that has no career path?
If the position offers no movement and you want to try to move up...why not take initiative?
Why not make sure you get your ass in when there is a foot of snow out there? You will stand out. Why not go to your boss and ask if you can stay late and "learn the new system"...without asking to get paid?
Why not find out what positions are available in the company above you and see what you need to "acquire" to be considered for that position?

I hear crap like this from management types all the time.
The decision engineers made when entering college was generally to try and get a degree that would allow them to have a decent life. The execs on the other hand seem to want a life of unearned luxury and ease. Your little sob story about uninspired employees tells me you must pay drudge wages and expect "extra" because the job market is tight. Just like all the other self satisfied swine - perhaps you started at the bottom, perhaps you had a little help from your folks along the way, perhaps you just got lucky with your business, or perhaps you're an internet fraud, none of that matters - your Choice was to seek MONEY MONEY MONEY and you did not care who had to be done out of it for you to get "yours"

The choice engineers make is to pursue a career where tehy can get an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.
The choice "Executives" make is to never pay an honest day's wage so they can have "more"

 

[Oldandtired]

Again...personal decisions.
If your desire is to move up, why take a position that has no career path?
If the position offers no movement and you want to try to move up...why not take initiative?
Why not make sure you get your ass in when there is a foot of snow out there? You will stand out. Why not go to your boss and ask if you can stay late and "learn the new system"...without asking to get paid?
Why not find out what positions are available in the company above you and see what you need to "acquire" to be considered for that position?

I hear crap like this from management types all the time.
The decision engineers made when entering college was generally to try and get a degree that would allow them to have a decent life. The execs on the other hand seem to want a life of unearned luxury and ease. Your little sob story about uninspired employees tells me you must pay drudge wages and expect "extra" because the job market is tight. Just like all the other self satisfied swine - perhaps you started at the bottom, perhaps you had a little help from your folks along the way, perhaps you just got lucky with your business, or perhaps you're an internet fraud, none of that matters - your Choice was to seek MONEY MONEY MONEY and you did not care who had to be done out of it for you to get "yours"

The choice engineers make is to pursue a career where tehy can get an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.
The choice "Executives" make is to never pay an honest day's wage so they can have "more"

My choice was to seek security. Not Money Money Money as you so eloquently put it.
I was making money money money but ddid not have security.
So I quit and started my own.
Help from my parents? Would have been nice.
Internet Fraud? Yeah...I guess I could be.
As for your 'execs" make it to never pay an honest day's wage so they can have more.......you jhust dont want to get it. That is why you are so bitter.
please....dam those that earn it and pat those that want no risk and all the return on the back.

I can not debate with someone who is bitter. You speak with emotion and cast logic to the wind.

 

[Charles Stucker]

You speak with emotion and cast logic to the wind.

What logic is there in paying an Exec, who can be easily replaced without harming the company, as shown by all the corporate reorganizations which toss out the execs (or should I say sycophants of the top dogs) when the top position shifts, more than the engineers and technical people who do the company work?
Right you have money, so you must have earned it.
An honest but poor engineer does not have money, despite working hard, so they made bad choices.

Franklin wrote that "In a well run country it is shameful to be poor, in a badly run country it is shameful to be rich."
I'm inclined to the point that the US is badly run.

 

[Oldandtired]

You speak with emotion and cast logic to the wind.

What logic is there in paying an Exec, who can be easily replaced without harming the company, as shown by all the corporate reorganizations which toss out the execs (or should I say sycophants of the top dogs) when the top position shifts, more than the engineers and technical people who do the company work?
Right you have money, so you must have earned it.
An honest but poor engineer does not have money, despite working hard, so they made bad choices.

Franklin wrote that "In a well run country it is shameful to be poor, in a badly run country it is shameful to be rich."
I'm inclined to the point that the US is badly run.

The US has grown to be the strongest most prosperous AND most generous nation in a mere 250 years.

No other country came close in such a short period of time.

And you see it as poorly run?

That being said...I agree with Franklin. And yes, it is shameful to be poor in a well run country. Maybe those that are pooor should make better decisions? Like maybe not taking the job that offers the shortest hours? Or most vacation days? Or highest salary? Or easiest commute? Or most freebies? Or strongest union?

Maybe they should find the position that will allow them to show their talent and not simply do what they are told?

Maybe they should take the time to develop a differential and apply it?

Maybe thy should spend more time worrying about getting ahead than they do worrying about how uch money their boss makes?

Maybe they should consider starting their own company seeing as their bosses are idiots that are driven by greed and they believe there is a better way?

Maybe before they got their enguineering degree they sepont time doing research on how engineers fare in the businss world?

Maybe they shouold have earned a more generic degree...say....economics....so they are not beholden to one industry?

 

[Oldandtired]

You speak with emotion and cast logic to the wind.

What logic is there in paying an Exec, who can be easily replaced without harming the company, as shown by all the corporate reorganizations which toss out the execs (or should I say sycophants of the top dogs) when the top position shifts, more than the engineers and technical people who do the company work?
Right you have money, so you must have earned it.
An honest but poor engineer does not have money, despite working hard, so they made bad choices.

Franklin wrote that "In a well run country it is shameful to be poor, in a badly run country it is shameful to be rich."
I'm inclined to the point that the US is badly run.

I never said I have money becuase I earned it. I have money becuase I made smart decisions.

An engineer works harder than I ever will...I have no doubt. But I wanted to be an architect...but was not happy with the starting salaries...and I did my research and saw that the only architects that did well were those on their own.

So I went for an economics degree......my first smart decision.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Maybe they shouold have earned a more generic degree...say....economics....so they are not beholden to one industry?

Yeah, those economics and finance degrees really did us a world of good during the Bush administration, didn't they!?!? Um, do you know how easy it is to find a job in the financial sector right now? NYC lost 200K jobs on wall street alone... and it wasn't the CEO's that were let go. It was people on the front lines and administrative positions. What is it now, like 8 million jobs lost so far? But the CEO's who wrecked their companies or looked the other way while 30-something douche traders played craps with our 401K's, got their million dollar bonuses, so all is cool.

Wow, you make it sound like the poor just have their pick of swell jobs to choose from and some kind of crystal ball that can prevent a layoff when they become too "expensive". You really don't know anything about being poor (or working poor) in America.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Maybe before they got their enguineering degree they sepont time doing research on how engineers fare in the businss world?

Maybe the engineers should all tell the businessmen to take a hike. No wait they are too prone to that puritan work ethic to all do it at once. Without a work ethic they would never have made it through engineering. That work ethic is what does them in. They want to work an honest job. They don't want to have to game the system to try and make money. If they wanted to game the system and make more money, or were too lazy to get an engineering degree they would have gone into one of the "money". But instead they heard the US NEEDS more engineers and more fool they, being young and gullible, they went into such a field. Only to be cheated at every turn by self righteous overpaid cretins who have managed to insure that anyone starting their own business on a shoestring budget, the only budget available for anyone not born with a silver spoon, faces a very hostile environment. Government, the banks, even the patent courts side with the big money EVERY time. Original holder of the patent on the line trimmed (aka weed whacker) challenged Sears in court and what did he get? His patent revoked by a judge who had clearly been bribed.
Go tell us another lie.

 

[Oldandtired]

Maybe they shouold have earned a more generic degree...say....economics....so they are not beholden to one industry?

Yeah, those economics and finance degrees really did us a world of good during the Bush administration, didn't they!?!? Um, do you know how easy it is to find a job in the financial sector right now? NYC lost 200K jobs on wall street alone... and it wasn't the CEO's that were let go. It was people on the front lines and administrative positions. What is it now, like 8 million jobs lost so far? But the CEO's who wrecked their companies or looked the other way while 30-something douche traders played craps with our 401K's, got their million dollar bonuses, so all is cool.

Wow, you make it sound like the poor just have their pick of swell jobs to choose from and some kind of crystal ball that can prevent a layoff when they become too "expensive". You really don't know anything about being poor (or working poor) in America.

We are in a recession right now.

And an economics degree does not mean you become an economist.

It affords you the education to do with your life what you want.

My degree in economics allwed me to applly what I learned to start my own...with no capital.

ANd I was poor...back in 1983....poor as dirt. No home...no bank account...nothing. All I had was anger at my employer that let me go. I blamed him for days...as I sat under the boardwalk on Long Island.

ANd I was woken by my guardian angel...a young man with a severe physical disability...who, on his own, with no help from anyone, opened his own restaurant. He had the whole worl to blame for lck of success and instad he opted to take initiatve.

He told me his story...ad then walked away.....I never saw him again...but I give him credit for the first company I sold 5 years later.

And I was poor.

SO know who you are talking to before you make assumptions.

Yes, I could be a fraud......but I am not.......so I suggest you learn from this.

You can do whatever you want....you just need to stop counting on others to do the right thing.

Why?

Becuase the right thing for them is not always the right thing for you...

Make smart well thought out decisions. Take a shitty job while finding your differential....and be prepard to take chances...and be prepared to fail and learn from your mistakes.

Stop counting on the sytem to work for you. It never will, It is not designed to work for you. It is designed to work for those that do for themselves.

One day you may be the person you now despise...and realize that it is not greed that drives them....but the desire for security.

 

[uscitizen]

You speak with emotion and cast logic to the wind.

What logic is there in paying an Exec, who can be easily replaced without harming the company, as shown by all the corporate reorganizations which toss out the execs (or should I say sycophants of the top dogs) when the top position shifts, more than the engineers and technical people who do the company work?
Right you have money, so you must have earned it.
An honest but poor engineer does not have money, despite working hard, so they made bad choices.

Franklin wrote that "In a well run country it is shameful to be poor, in a badly run country it is shameful to be rich."
I'm inclined to the point that the US is badly run.

The US has grown to be the strongest most prosperous AND most generous nation in a mere 250 years.

No other country came close in such a short period of time.

And you see it as poorly run?

That being said...I agree with Franklin. And yes, it is shameful to be poor in a well run country. Maybe those that are pooor should make better decisions? Like maybe not taking the job that offers the shortest hours? Or most vacation days? Or highest salary? Or easiest commute? Or most freebies? Or strongest union?

Maybe they should find the position that will allow them to show their talent and not simply do what they are told?

Maybe they should take the time to develop a differential and apply it?

Maybe thy should spend more time worrying about getting ahead than they do worrying about how uch money their boss makes?

Maybe they should consider starting their own company seeing as their bosses are idiots that are driven by greed and they believe there is a better way?

Maybe before they got their enguineering degree they sepont time doing research on how engineers fare in the businss world?

Maybe they shouold have earned a more generic degree...say....economics....so they are not beholden to one industry?

Well the free ride is over, we have competition in the world and have grown lazy and spoiled.

 

[Oldandtired]

Maybe before they got their enguineering degree they sepont time doing research on how engineers fare in the businss world?

Maybe the engineers should all tell the businessmen to take a hike. No wait they are too prone to that puritan work ethic to all do it at once. Without a work ethic they would never have made it through engineering. That work ethic is what does them in. They want to work an honest job. They don't want to have to game the system to try and make money. If they wanted to game the system and make more money, or were too lazy to get an engineering degree they would have gone into one of the "money". But instead they heard the US NEEDS more engineers and more fool they, being young and gullible, they went into such a field. Only to be cheated at every turn by self righteous overpaid cretins who have managed to insure that anyone starting their own business on a shoestring budget, the only budget available for anyone not born with a silver spoon, faces a very hostile environment. Government, the banks, even the patent courts side with the big money EVERY time. Original holder of the patent on the line trimmed (aka weed whacker) challenged Sears in court and what did he get? His patent revoked by a judge who had clearly been bribed.
Go tell us another lie.

CS...

I can only ask this...

Please do not make it sound like that is the way it is out there. It is not. Yes, it happens....but you are obvioulsy bitter as you were screwed.
But you need to move on...and stop blaming others. You got screwed but most will not screw you. Others will see the benefiot you bring if you let them.
How long ago did this happen to you?

 

[Oldandtired]

What logic is there in paying an Exec, who can be easily replaced without harming the company, as shown by all the corporate reorganizations which toss out the execs (or should I say sycophants of the top dogs) when the top position shifts, more than the engineers and technical people who do the company work?
Right you have money, so you must have earned it.
An honest but poor engineer does not have money, despite working hard, so they made bad choices.

Franklin wrote that "In a well run country it is shameful to be poor, in a badly run country it is shameful to be rich."
I'm inclined to the point that the US is badly run.

The US has grown to be the strongest most prosperous AND most generous nation in a mere 250 years.

No other country came close in such a short period of time.

And you see it as poorly run?

That being said...I agree with Franklin. And yes, it is shameful to be poor in a well run country. Maybe those that are pooor should make better decisions? Like maybe not taking the job that offers the shortest hours? Or most vacation days? Or highest salary? Or easiest commute? Or most freebies? Or strongest union?

Maybe they should find the position that will allow them to show their talent and not simply do what they are told?

Maybe they should take the time to develop a differential and apply it?

Maybe thy should spend more time worrying about getting ahead than they do worrying about how uch money their boss makes?

Maybe they should consider starting their own company seeing as their bosses are idiots that are driven by greed and they believe there is a better way?

Maybe before they got their enguineering degree they sepont time doing research on how engineers fare in the businss world?

Maybe they shouold have earned a more generic degree...say....economics....so they are not beholden to one industry?

Well the free ride is over, we have competition in the world and have grown lazy and spoiled.

Not me.
Lazy? Sure...sometimes.
Spoiled? No way.
Congress sees us as children that can not help themselves...and they are trying to spoil us.
THAT will be our demise.

 

[Charles Stucker]

. Take a shitty job while finding your differential....and be prepard to take chances....

Shitty jobs like all the summer work I took while in college?
You know while finding my "differential" which happens to be a pretty fair ability to find solutions to pretty much any problem using math.
Except I don't know jack about marketing. So the guy who can sell sell sell, makes money. Even if his company does not. And when I get called into consult I find the problem; the marketing department has no clue about the true cost of manufacture and so bid on the contracts that make them the most personal money without a care for the company - I suggest a reconfiguration of bidding policies which makes the company again prosperous and since I'm an outside hire, I get beans while the marketing guys take credit for saving the company. Sounds real fair to me. I should have asked for a percentage, is what you will say, but I believe in giving an honest return for my pay. Something you clearly don't understand.

I took a chance, one designed to help a nation short on technical skills. And got shafted by people born with a silver spoon.

 

[Oldandtired]

Hey Peepers....hw old are you? Are you employed? If yes, are you happy? Are you secure?If you are not happy or secure, you ready for a change? You prepared to go to the next level? You prepared to learn from your mistakes?
You ready for some ideas?
I have them. Gave my son one 5 months ago and he started a business IN A RECESSION with no capital and he s now making a nice living...

Let me know. I have ideas.