Evidence that universe created itself

[sear]

a) I remember Albert Einstein said this: "Das Universum erkennt sich im Menschen selbst" - "The universe recognizes itself in the human being" (my own verbally translation). Another man of his time, [the] Mahatma Gandhi, said something like: "Recognize yourselve and you will recognize the universe". Both ideas are somehow combined in the "anthropic principle". Short: If someone has a mathematical idea about the universe, where he himself is not able to be born, then something is wrong with this idea.

b) Ingrate? ... I have not really a good idea what you like say with this word to me. Sounds not as if this would be a characteristicum of my own person.

a) Thank you. I spent some time in Rheinland Pfaltz (spelling?) in the mid-1970's. I wasn't there long enough to learn much German, just long enough to appreciate the culture. I haven't been back since "The Wall" fell, and the Germanys reunited.

b) An ingrate is one who is deficient in appreciation. What's the point in living if you don't appreciate it? You seem to appreciate your own good fortune. Excellent.

 

[sear]

I don't know why the space expands - but if I think about then it means we live in an universe where we always will see an expanding universe

I'm baffled by it. And it seems to me the pseudo astrophysics used to explain it is grasping at straws.
Might accelerating expansion be a universal standard? Why would that make less sense than something else?

But it's so odd, I'd be wary of any assumption.

 

[justoffal]

What ya got?

Okay, so in what do you put your "faith"?
.

So far every intelligent in-depth analysis device of spontaneous self-creation. There are just too many happy coincidences out there.

Jo

 

[sear]

#183
and
I know of no evidence for any supernatural anything.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

There are just too many happy coincidences out there.

Is that your gut feeling? It kinda sorta FEELS like too many?

 

[LittleNipper]

and
I know of no evidence for any supernatural anything.

And life from dirt is a daily occurrence? You travel from work/school to home on a daily bases, and you never were concerned that you might not make it? And yet here you are ------ a miracle!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And life from dirt is a daily occurrence? You travel from work/school to home on a daily bases, and you never were concerned that you might not make it? And yet here you are ------ a miracle!

Why would that be a miracle? What is thia nonsense? Your unevidenced magic doesn't go on the same shelf with science.

 

[Hollie]

And life from dirt is a daily occurrence? You travel from work/school to home on a daily bases, and you never were concerned that you might not make it? And yet here you are ------ a miracle!

Wow. "'Miracles'' used to be extra-special tricks attributed to the gods. Surviving the drive to work being a ''miracle" tends to cheapen the god's brand.

 

[ChemEngineer]

So far every intelligent in-depth analysis device of spontaneous self-creation. There are just too many happy coincidences out there.

Jo

That isn't right. It isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli

You have no concept whatsoever of insuperable statistics. Zero.
You couldn't even formulate a sentence in your first inane comment.

 

[LittleNipper]

Why would that be a miracle? What is thia nonsense? Your unevidenced magic doesn't go on the same shelf with science.

PROVE that life can naturally develop from a rock, dirt, or some primordial soup. If you cannot then the supernatural is the only viable explanation. YOUR, or any scientist's opinion, that such is possible is a matter of FAITH and a BELIEF that is UNSUBSTANTIATED. Faith in a theory without substance is dogma. This is not science. For any evolutionist (who must also accept that life originated from rock) to decry a creationist as a religious fanatic and not scientific ----- is a pot trying to label a kettle black.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

PROVE that life can naturally develop from a rock, dirt, or some primordial soup

See, right there. You don't even understand the most basic precepts of science. "Proof" is for mathematics. Your professor would correct this nonsense on your first day of class, if you had ever had any education in any science. Which you have not.

But, as always, here is where i shut you right up and you slither off:

What would convince you of "abiogenesis without magical miracles"? Be specific. Tell us what the evidence would look like.

Keep in mind, abiogenesis without miracles would not preclude the existence of your favorites gods. It would simply be how they did things.

So, your answer? Be clear. Be specific.

 

[ChemEngineer]

The once touted Miller-Urey Experiment has been totally discredited. It pretended that lightning striking primordial ooze made four or five simple amino acids, all racemic, all dilute.

Humans are composed of 20 different amino acids, all levorotary.
Chains of 1 out of 20 different amino acids in a sequence 10,000 amino acid residues in length represent 1 chance in 1/20 to the 10,000th power, which is effectively zero probability.
That is just for ONE protein out of 10,000 or so, and it is not particularly large.

So science and statistics effectively refute Darwinism, materialism, and nothing making everything, which is the absurd pretense of every atheist.

 

[sear]

And life from dirt is a daily occurrence?

Dr. Carl Sagan and others have observed, once a primordial breeding community occurs, it's off to the races. Next stop: Trilobite.
It's probably not common LN.
But we wouldn't know if it happens daily in the ocean.

one "teaspoon [of ocean water] will contain millions of bacteria, and 10's of millions of viruses. ... when we try to culture these organisms only about a tenth of a percent of them have ever grown in the laboratory. ...

Every 200 miles, 85% of the organisms and sequences were unique to the region.

... each site differs from each other. But the diversity and the amount of organisms is extremely high everywhere. There's different ones that grow in the cold water of the North Atlantic, than in the South Atlantic. The Atlantic ocean is different than the Pacific ocean. ... The most important thing we found is these photo-receptors see the color of light in the region reflected by the sea water.

In the Sargasso Sea, it's a deep indigo blue. The photo-receptors, it's like having one eye, only see blue light. You get into coastal waters, say see green light reflected off the chlorophyll. And a single letter change in the genetic code changes one amino acid in this protein, that changes the wavelength of light that these receptors see." Craig Venter, from his Global Ocean Sampling Expedition

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Dr. Carl Sagan and others have observed, once a primordial breeding community occurs, it's off to the races. Next stop: Trilobite.
It's probably not common LN.
But we wouldn't know if it happens daily in the ocean.

one "teaspoon [of ocean water] will contain millions of bacteria, and 10's of millions of viruses. ... when we try to culture these organisms only about a tenth of a percent of them have ever grown in the laboratory. ...

Every 200 miles, 85% of the organisms and sequences were unique to the region.

... each site differs from each other. But the diversity and the amount of organisms is extremely high everywhere. There's different ones that grow in the cold water of the North Atlantic, than in the South Atlantic. The Atlantic ocean is different than the Pacific ocean. ... The most important thing we found is these photo-receptors see the color of light in the region reflected by the sea water.

In the Sargasso Sea, it's a deep indigo blue. The photo-receptors, it's like having one eye, only see blue light. You get into coastal waters, say see green light reflected off the chlorophyll. And a single letter change in the genetic code changes one amino acid in this protein, that changes the wavelength of light that these receptors see." Craig Venter, from his Global Ocean Sampling Expedition

Mind blowing.

Once we came to understand the concept of selection and how nonrandom it is, the idea of "apparent design" was explained. Given selection, of course polar bears are white. Given selection, of course birds can follow complex migration patterns. Else, that species would not exist. or it would be a different species that does different things. Their sensitivity and socialization was "selected for" at some point, and now the entire population exhibits this trait. The ones that don't, die. they do not pass on their genes.

Given selection, life will always try to form, by its inherent property of persistence of successful models. Local order, when it successfully maintains itself. Inherently this is "selected for", as the definition of "to select for" is to choose one model to persist. It is fair to believe that in any environment that can maintain lots of amino acids at a moderate temp, given enough time, they will combine in new, interesting ways and form persistent models of larger structures that are "selected for" by the environment and physics.

 

[zaangalewa]

Space expands because the paired production annihilations released tremendous amounts of energy and set the remaining matter particles in motion which resulted in the universe expanding.

Eh? Sometimes it is better to know nothing. How big is the hammer which I need to expand 1 gallon space to 2 gallons space and how do I have to smash it?

Yes, space time is curved.

No! Space is flat what's proven up to the time when light came free. Mass curves the spacetime only locally. Because space is flat we don't live in a closed universe.

I marvel at God's creation every day.

Hmm ...

 

[zaangalewa]

I'm baffled by it. And it seems to me the pseudo astrophysics used to explain it is grasping at straws.
Might accelerating expansion be a universal standard? Why would that make less sense than something else?

But it's so odd, I'd be wary of any assumption.

You are in the middle of the universe because this is so. So why to be frustrated? What could be a better position? It is what it is - and what we still don't know, we still don't know. Our understanding of truth and reality is growing. Every day we are learning more - but never we will know everything - and sometimes we will have to correct some mistakes. And sometimes we will also have to correct mistakes which we made when we were correcting mistakes. Perfection in this world here means always to be ready to correct mistakes and to continue to stay in everything what's really true. Nothing is so absurde as the "new" truth it exists no truth.




Ich bring Dich durch die Nacht

Die Schatten werden länger
Der graue, grame Grillenfänger
Streicht um das Haus
Der Tag ist aus
Die Ängste kommen näher
Sie stell‘n sich größer, krall‘n sich zäher
In der Seele fest
In deinem Traumgeäst
Manchmal ist es bis zum anderen Ufer der Nacht
Wie ein lichtloser Tunnel, ein nicht enden wollender Schacht

Ich bring dich durch die Nacht
Ich bring dich durch die rauhe See
Ich bring dich durch die Nacht
Ich bringe dich von Luv nach Lee
Ich bin dein Lotse, ich bin dein Mann
Bin deine Schwester, lehn dich an
Ich bin der Freund, der mit dir wacht
Ich bring dich durch die Nacht

Alles erscheint dir schwerer
Bedrohlicher und hoffnungsleerer
Mit der Dunkelheit
Kommen aus dunkler Zeit
Ferne Erinnerungen
Die Nacht wispert mit tausend Zungen:
"Sie sind alle aus
Du bist allein zuhaus!"
Mit deiner stummen Verzweiflung und dem Knistern im Parkett
Und als einzigem Trost das warme Licht des Radios an deinem Bett

Ich bring dich durch die Nacht...

[Laß los, versuch zu schlafen
Ich bring dich sicher in den Hafen
Dir kann nichts gescheh‘n
Wolfsmann und böse Feen
Sind nur ein Blätterreigen
Vorm Fenster, der Wind in den Zweigen
Im Kastanienbaum
Ein böser Traum
Der‘s nicht wagt, wiederzukommen, bis der neue Tag beginnt
Laß los, ich halt dich fest, ich kenn den Weg aus dem Labyrinth

Ich bring dich durch die Nacht...]

Reinhard Mey

 

[Colin norris]

There are theories, such as String Theory. There is a theory that White Holes exist - the opposite of Black Holes, and mathematically possible. Instead of sucking in matter like Black Holes, White Holes shoot out matter. So our particular universe could have simply exploded out of the ass end of one of those.

The brilliant Lawrence Krauss has a new book out on this, "A Universe From Nothing", Amazon product

That's the beauty and fun of science: You always get to be curious, challenge yourself, ask questions, think, experiment, and admit that you don't have all the answers. Awesome!
.

All the godbotherers believe that everything they will ever encounter is explained in the bible.
Those immaculate conception and virgin births etc seem to have disrupted that theory.

 

[zaangalewa]

PROVE that life can naturally develop from a rock, dirt, or some primordial soup. If you cannot then the supernatural is the only viable explanation.

You are the same matter as the floor under your feet and after your death you will become dust like this again. And if you would use the greek word meta-physics instead of the Latin word super-natural then you would understand more easy what's really important in this context. Meta-physics were the books "meta" the books about physics in a Christian liberary. Mathematics or music for example is meta-physics in such a context. Sure are instruments "physics" - nut not so the music which is made with instruments - although the sound itselve is also physics again. A meta-physical question in such a context could for example be "Is a song dead while it is not sung?" or "Where was a formula before it was discovered the first time?"

Miracles are not contrary to nature but only contrarary to what we know about
Augustinus from Hippo

YOUR, or any scientist's opinion, that such is possible is a matter of FAITH and a BELIEF that is UNSUBSTANTIATED. Faith in a theory without substance is dogma. This is not science. For any evolutionist (who must also accept that life originated from rock) to decry a creationist as a religious fanatic and not scientific ----- is a pot trying to label a kettle black.

Nearly no Christian in the world - except the rest of the world which is called USA - has any problem to accept evolution and to believe in creation. I never understood the discussion in the English speaking world "creation vs evolution". Nevertheless I have to say it is better not to accept evolution instead to accept racisms or biological nonsense like Aryan races, alpha wolves in human societies and other nonsense. Nevertheless refers the real scientific theory of evolution to a real evolution in nature which is created from god. The important thing: You and your dog for example have a common ancestors. You are somehow "brothers" (see also Saint Francis).

 

[sear]

You are in the middle of the universe because this is so.

If it is so, it's purely coincidental.

Instead we are in the perceived middle, because of the accelerating expansion.
The more distant the object we observe regardless of direction (azimuth), the faster it appears to recede.

Therefore what some refer to as the edge of the universe is instead merely the core of the universe that's receding from us at less than the speed of light (SOL).
We can't see what is beyond that, because it recedes from us faster than light, so its light (if any) never reaches us.

Let us not, particularly in relativistic astrophysics, fail to distinguish between perception & reality.
We don't know what's beyond what we can see. The best we can do is extrapolate from what we can see. But the reliability of such extrapolation probably tapers off with distance beyond the observable limit. If we call that observable limit, then might what we perceive as our cosmos also be what others in an adjacent universe might perceive as a singularity? A black hole?

What surrounds a black hole in our universe is an event horizon.
So if the perimeter of our observable cosmos is an event horizon, then we're in a black hole. Right?

 

[zaangalewa]

If it is so,

It is so because the universe epands from all points into all directions. So everywhere in the universe exist only central points.

it's purely coincidental.

Sure, universe.

Instead we are in the perceived middle, because of the accelerating expansion.

Ahem - seems to me you did not read what I said before. And not to trust in measurements ("perceived") and logic ("mathematics") is not the philosophy of natural philosophy = natural science.

The more distant the object we observe regardless of direction (azimuth), the faster it appears to recede.

While a mosquito far away seem to be slower than a mosquito in an head orbit. A mystery.

Therefore what some refer to as the edge of the universe is instead merely the core of the universe that's receding from us at less than the speed of light (SOL).

There is no edge. Wherever you will travel with your starship Mosquito - always will the universe expand from all points into all directsions.

We can't see what is beyond that, because it recedes from us faster than light, so its light (if any) never reaches us.

The most far objects which we can see travel with 3 times lightspeed.

Let us not, particularly in relativistic astrophysics, fail to distinguish between perception & reality.

?

We don't know what's beyond what we can see.

Sure - that's why America not exists from my point of view here. No way to see it.

The best we can do is extrapolate from what we can see.

Under the paradigma "all over the universe exist always the same natural laws"

But the reliability of such extrapolation probably tapers off with distance beyond the observable limit. If we call that observable limit, then might what we perceive as our cosmos also be what others in an adjacent universe might perceive as a singularity? A black hole?

A strange idea. If a ray of light (or any other electromagnetic wave) not reaches us we see just simple nothing because it never arrives

What surrounds a black hole in our universe is an event horizon.
So if the perimeter of our observable cosmos is an event horizon, then we're in a black hole. Right?

No. What we don't see is like a kind of horizon. Light not reaches us. Here on Earth reaches us no light from the USA because the world is round and a ray of light is straight. That's why America is not existing. If we are in a black hole we see everything - but we cannot send anything. A ray of light is too heavy.