Eternity: From the Beginning to the End

[usfan]

Eternity & infinity are abstract concepts that give us humans a difficult time. We see most things as beginning & ending.. almost everything in our lives has a start & a finish, including our own lives. But the concept of eternity has no beginning.. time drifts on backward in the past, with NO apparent start, & no explanation. Gurus, holy men, & philosophers have speculated & pontificated about eternity for as long as man has the capacity of thought. But we are no more closer to understanding it or grasping its meaning than when we first defined the term.

1. We have no awareness of eternity past. Eons passed before our brief existence.. Universe after universe could have come & gone, while we were yet unborn. Go back as far as you can imagine.. before any 'big bang', or creative action from a deity. Some theorize that the universe is expanding. How can this be? If matter has been simplifying & spreading out, how can it come together for any reason? Was there a 'beginning'.. a 'start' of matter? Matter is incredible. Life is irrational. All matter should have drifted to infinity in complete equilibrium.. stars burnt out eons ago, & the miracle of life not even a dream. The vastness of our universe is a tiny speck in the face of infinite space. How can there be matter? It is only a collection of infinitesimal, atomic particles.

2. The existence of an 'Eternal soul' is just as disturbing as if there is no soul. How is it even possible that life should exist, or that our minds could even grasp things like eternity? Eternity past went on without us.. it will seemingly go on for eternity future, & our existence a meaningless blip in the face of time. We are a collection of matter & molecules, with a mysterious mechanism giving us life. Mixed in with that is the ability to grasp abstract thoughts, like eternity, & our own existence is amazing. Whether we cease to exist at death, or go on in some mysterious supernatural state, the mere ability to see those possibilities is troubling. We went from eternal nothingness, to a brief awareness. And now we try to make sense of our existence. It is no wonder there are so many religions, philosophies, theories, & abstract reasonings to explain ourselves. Our existence is amazing & unbelievable.. impossible, really, yet here we are.

3. Existence is terrifying, non existence is worse. As humans age, we become tired of life.. at least many of us do. How can we face the idea of eternal existence? As terrifying as non-existence is, eternal existence is equally disturbing. Soul or not, our future is grim & mysterious. Will we drift through eternal time & space with some kind of awareness, linked to other souls, or deities? Or will we simply cease to exist, like we did for eternity past?

4. Some people seem to be mad at god &/or the universe, throwing tantrums because they exist. Man is not comfortable with his existence, but needs an explanation. There is a 'why' that gnaws at us, that no other life forms or matter seem to have. This angst is an awareness of eternity, & it's awful implications. If there is a god involved in our existence, we do not know why, or have a definitive reason. He has shrouded the explanation & himself in mystery. Holy men, witch doctors, philosophers, & spiritual gurus speculate, but we do not really know. The universe is awful, terrifying, & too vast for our finite minds to grasp. So we either cling to someone else's explanation, or avoid the subject, living in denial about our eternal fate. If there is no god, our tantrums for understanding fall on eternal darkness, devoid of any reason or meaning. God or not, the universe is terrifying.

5. If there is not a god or some kind of supernatural power, life is short & pointless. If there is a god, it is short & uncertain, & we still do not know why we exist. It may still be pointless, & our existence just as fleeting. We live. We die. The universe goes on until all the stars burn out in eternal darkness & silence. Or, if there is some kind of divine order, we don't know what it is.. even a vague definition of heaven or hell is only a blurry glimpse into something we do not have the capacity to understand.

When I gave my heart to know wisdom and to see the task which has been done on the earth (even though one should never sleep day or night), and I saw every work of God, I concluded that man cannot discover the work which has been done under the sun. Even though man should seek laboriously, he will not discover; and though the wise man should say, “I know,” he cannot discover. Solomon c. 1000BC

 

[Moonglow]

To bad God doesn't sit down and talk to us................

 

[HaShev]

God is not a man nor form, but if even the reflection (malakh) and manifestation of God is too much for man to handle then what makes man think they could handle the truth & knowledge of a figure God?
Surely people would feel him as arrogant, know it all, too judgemental, to bossy, too kvetchy, to demanding, too mean for cutting our egos down to size and honestly telling it like it is not how we wish it to be.

Regarding eternity.
To the fans of teams out of the playoffs waiting for the hockey draft it can seem like an eternity except for the Oilers & Sabres who already know the outcome and know the future to come for them in the draft.
You might fear the concept of eternity, but those who already know do not fear or feel eternity as those who do not yet know what gifts are in store for those 8n non linear time.

 

[Mr. H.]

Infinite Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Working with the infinite is tricky business. Zeno’s paradoxes first alerted philosophers to this in 450 B.C.E. when he argued that a fast runner such as Achilles has an infinite number of places to reach during the pursuit of a slower runner. Since then, there has been a struggle to understand how to use the notion of infinity in a coherent manner. This article concerns the significant and controversial role that the concepts of infinity and the infinite play in the disciplines of philosophy, physical science, and mathematics.

 

[onefour1]

Perhaps we are eternal beings who have had a veil placed upon our minds so that we cannot remember past eternity. Perhaps this veil is necessary for us to learn to walk by faith on this earth so that we will learn to choose, in and of ourselves, to be good beings. This could be a strength of character exercise to see who, when not in the presence of God, will be a good person. Maybe God wants his children to grow up and not require a baby sitter. Perhaps only in this life we grow old and get tired but in eternity we are full of energy and vitality. Maybe God wants us to become like him and this life is way to help eternal beings progress. It could be that since we are eternal beings, that God could not simply create us ( out of nothing) to be perfect. Maybe there are several places that God has prepared for us after this life based on how well we progress. Maybe each place is based on the type of person you have become in this life. Maybe we will be among those who are most like ourselves. Maybe we have a way to overcome our faults and be forgiven of our trespasses. Perhaps free will is an eternal principle and is tied to our eternal happiness. Perhaps this is the reason in the temporal state that we are given free will so that we can learn to use it properly. Could it be that the story of Jesus is true and resurrection is a true principle. If so, maybe God is a man. Maybe we were made in God's own image and likeness. Maybe immortality and eternal life are not such bad things after all. Maybe the family is an eternal principle and we will forever enjoy one another's company. Just a thought.

 

[BreezeWood]

5. If there is not a god or some kind of supernatural power, life is short & pointless.

.
why would living be " short & pointless " - without a God ?

the idea is to keep " Living " whether there is a God or not, the latter will eventually take care of itself one way or another ... and if not then maybe it's for the better.

.

 

[usfan]

why would living be " short & pointless " - without a God ?
the idea is to keep " Living " whether there is a God or not, the latter will eventually take care of itself one way or another ... and if not then maybe it's for the better.
.

Well, lets see. Say you live to be 100yrs old. In the face of eternity, that is pretty 'short'. If there is no God, how can there be any 'point' to existence? There MIGHT be some purpose, if there is a God, but if not, how can there be? If we are accidents of nature, what possible 'point' can there be to our existence?

 

[MaryL]

OK. We don't need god because the universe always existed. Tell that to a Muslim militant, he won't kiss you gently on the cheek for that tidbit.

 

[usfan]

OK. We don't need god because the universe always existed. Tell that to a Muslim militant, he won't kiss you gently on the cheek for that tidbit.

How do you 'know' that the universe always existed? You can assert it, or assume it, but you cannot 'know' it. There certainly is no empirical proof of that statement.

 

[MaryL]

O

OK. We don't need god because the universe always existed. Tell that to a Muslim militant, he won't kiss you gently on the cheek for that tidbit.

How do you 'know' that the universe always existed? You can assert it, or assume it, but you cannot 'know' it. There certainly is no empirical proof of that statement.

OK, I don't know that. Do you KNOW were God came from?

 

[MaryL]

Who created the creator? Or maybe, we don't need a creator, perhaps the multiverse just IS and always will be. Is the universe resting on the back of a turtle? I can do with out a god.

 

[BreezeWood]

why would living be " short & pointless " - without a God ?
the idea is to keep " Living " whether there is a God or not, the latter will eventually take care of itself one way or another ... and if not then maybe it's for the better.
.

Well, lets see. Say you live to be 100yrs old. In the face of eternity, that is pretty 'short'. If there is no God, how can there be any 'point' to existence? There MIGHT be some purpose, if there is a God, but if not, how can there be? If we are accidents of nature, what possible 'point' can there be to our existence?

.

usf: There MIGHT be some purpose, if there is a God, but if not, how can there be? If we are accidents of nature, what possible 'point' can there be to our existence?

.
the idea is to keep " Living " - life itself is the purpose as stated earlier ...

perhaps the lack of contact with God is to emphasize one's own life is what is important and living it correctly, the Triumph of Good vs Evil - such that living correctly may preclude ever a presence with the Almighty as being unnecessary.

... a person will by all accounts meet God were they to become evil ... and that meeting and the individual would be short-lived instantly by that same account.

.

 

[usfan]

Who created the creator? Or maybe, we don't need a creator, perhaps the multiverse just IS and always will be. Is the universe resting on the back of a turtle? I can do with out a god.

Perhaps. And that is the point. Nobody really knows, or at least they cannot prove their 'opinion' empirically.

the idea is to keep " Living " - life itself is the purpose as stated earlier ...
perhaps the lack of contact with God is to emphasize one's own life is what is important and living it correctly, the Triumph of Good vs Evil - such that living correctly may preclude ever a presence with the Almighty as being unnecessary.
... a person will by all accounts meet God were they to become evil ... and that meeting and the individual would be short-lived instantly by that same account.

The contrast is that there 'might' be some eternal or created purpose for man, if he was created, but if he is an accident of nature, there is none. Survival is not a 'higher purpose' that fills men with angst, & philosophers minds with speculation. Every animal has survival instincts, so perhaps that is all there is. But man has abstract thinking, & a sense of angst, to complicate his life. Why?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Eternity & infinity are abstract concepts that give us humans a difficult time. We see most things as beginning & ending.. almost everything in our lives has a start & a finish, including our own lives. But the concept of eternity has no beginning.. time drifts on backward in the past, with NO apparent start, & no explanation. Gurus, holy men, & philosophers have speculated & pontificated about eternity for as long as man has the capacity of thought. But we are no more closer to understanding it or grasping its meaning than when we first defined the term.

1. We have no awareness of eternity past. Eons passed before our brief existence.. Universe after universe could have come & gone, while we were yet unborn. Go back as far as you can imagine.. before any 'big bang', or creative action from a deity. Some theorize that the universe is expanding. How can this be? If matter has been simplifying & spreading out, how can it come together for any reason? Was there a 'beginning'.. a 'start' of matter? Matter is incredible. Life is irrational. All matter should have drifted to infinity in complete equilibrium.. stars burnt out eons ago, & the miracle of life not even a dream. The vastness of our universe is a tiny speck in the face of infinite space. How can there be matter? It is only a collection of infinitesimal, atomic particles.

2. The existence of an 'Eternal soul' is just as disturbing as if there is no soul. How is it even possible that life should exist, or that our minds could even grasp things like eternity? Eternity past went on without us.. it will seemingly go on for eternity future, & our existence a meaningless blip in the face of time. We are a collection of matter & molecules, with a mysterious mechanism giving us life. Mixed in with that is the ability to grasp abstract thoughts, like eternity, & our own existence is amazing. Whether we cease to exist at death, or go on in some mysterious supernatural state, the mere ability to see those possibilities is troubling. We went from eternal nothingness, to a brief awareness. And now we try to make sense of our existence. It is no wonder there are so many religions, philosophies, theories, & abstract reasonings to explain ourselves. Our existence is amazing & unbelievable.. impossible, really, yet here we are.

3. Existence is terrifying, non existence is worse. As humans age, we become tired of life.. at least many of us do. How can we face the idea of eternal existence? As terrifying as non-existence is, eternal existence is equally disturbing. Soul or not, our future is grim & mysterious. Will we drift through eternal time & space with some kind of awareness, linked to other souls, or deities? Or will we simply cease to exist, like we did for eternity past?

4. Some people seem to be mad at god &/or the universe, throwing tantrums because they exist. Man is not comfortable with his existence, but needs an explanation. There is a 'why' that gnaws at us, that no other life forms or matter seem to have. This angst is an awareness of eternity, & it's awful implications. If there is a god involved in our existence, we do not know why, or have a definitive reason. He has shrouded the explanation & himself in mystery. Holy men, witch doctors, philosophers, & spiritual gurus speculate, but we do not really know. The universe is awful, terrifying, & too vast for our finite minds to grasp. So we either cling to someone else's explanation, or avoid the subject, living in denial about our eternal fate. If there is no god, our tantrums for understanding fall on eternal darkness, devoid of any reason or meaning. God or not, the universe is terrifying.

5. If there is not a god or some kind of supernatural power, life is short & pointless. If there is a god, it is short & uncertain, & we still do not know why we exist. It may still be pointless, & our existence just as fleeting. We live. We die. The universe goes on until all the stars burn out in eternal darkness & silence. Or, if there is some kind of divine order, we don't know what it is.. even a vague definition of heaven or hell is only a blurry glimpse into something we do not have the capacity to understand.

When I gave my heart to know wisdom and to see the task which has been done on the earth (even though one should never sleep day or night), and I saw every work of God, I concluded that man cannot discover the work which has been done under the sun. Even though man should seek laboriously, he will not discover; and though the wise man should say, “I know,” he cannot discover. Solomon c. 1000BC

Re: point 1, the universe IS expanding. It's not 'some theorize it is.' It is. We can see it doing so.

As to the concepts of eternity and infinity, they are in fact only concepts and not objective realities. At least, we believe them so. And yes, everything that is, eventually isn't. Nothing in this universe is designed to last forever, not even the universe itself. Without things ending, and organisms dying, news things can't come to be. We're only here because stars in the distant past died, cast off their building blocks in nova explosions redistributing that matter which led to our Sun coming into existence, forming a gravity well which drew in particulate matter which over billions of years became the solar system, planets, and us.

God might be the god of planet Earth, but it simply couldn't be the god of the entire universe. A) God couldn't have existed prior to the universe existing, and taking just the biblical mention of God and doing some simple arithmetic you can arrive at figures showing the amount of time God has spent paying attention to us VASTLY exceeds the current age of the universe. As in if it took God 6 days to create the solar system, given how many solar systems there are (and ignoring free roaming planets not orbiting stars of which there are more than orbiting stars,) it would have taken God many millions of times longer to create everything we currently see than the universe has even existed. Plus, given how much God seems to care about this one planet, given all the others it doesn't seem like He'd be able to give the others muich time and attention if He's here concerning Himself with us.

 

[Dajjal]

Perhaps we are eternal beings who have had a veil placed upon our minds so that we cannot remember past eternity. Perhaps this veil is necessary for us to learn to walk by faith on this earth so that we will learn to choose, in and of ourselves, to be good beings. This could be a strength of character exercise to see who, when not in the presence of God, will be a good person. Maybe God wants his children to grow up and not require a baby sitter. Perhaps only in this life we grow old and get tired but in eternity we are full of energy and vitality. Maybe God wants us to become like him and this life is way to help eternal beings progress. It could be that since we are eternal beings, that God could not simply create us ( out of nothing) to be perfect. Maybe there are several places that God has prepared for us after this life based on how well we progress. Maybe each place is based on the type of person you have become in this life. Maybe we will be among those who are most like ourselves. Maybe we have a way to overcome our faults and be forgiven of our trespasses. Perhaps free will is an eternal principle and is tied to our eternal happiness. Perhaps this is the reason in the temporal state that we are given free will so that we can learn to use it properly. Could it be that the story of Jesus is true and resurrection is a true principle. If so, maybe God is a man. Maybe we were made in God's own image and likeness. Maybe immortality and eternal life are not such bad things after all. Maybe the family is an eternal principle and we will forever enjoy one another's company. Just a thought.

Wow, you have thought that out well.
My studies of occult philosophy state that we live many, many incarnations, possibly thousands of lives. The memories of all past lives are stored in the causal body which is formless and expandable. Consciousness is filtered down from the causal body through a number of higher bodies, such as the mental and astral. Then it is connected to the physical body through the etheric counterpart.
The brain only remembers this one life from birth, and it limits consciousness of the spirit which is greater than the brain can contain.
The theory is that God has always existed as a supreme consciousness and we are a tiny part of the godhead sealed off from God by an energy bubble which is called the casual body. Therefore we are eternal immortal beings. Universes may come and go but we will remain a part of God.

 

[BreezeWood]

Who created the creator? Or maybe, we don't need a creator, perhaps the multiverse just IS and always will be. Is the universe resting on the back of a turtle? I can do with out a god.

Perhaps. And that is the point. Nobody really knows, or at least they cannot prove their 'opinion' empirically.

the idea is to keep " Living " - life itself is the purpose as stated earlier ...
perhaps the lack of contact with God is to emphasize one's own life is what is important and living it correctly, the Triumph of Good vs Evil - such that living correctly may preclude ever a presence with the Almighty as being unnecessary.
... a person will by all accounts meet God were they to become evil ... and that meeting and the individual would be short-lived instantly by that same account.

The contrast is that there 'might' be some eternal or created purpose for man, if he was created, but if he is an accident of nature, there is none. Survival is not a 'higher purpose' that fills men with angst, & philosophers minds with speculation. Every animal has survival instincts, so perhaps that is all there is. But man has abstract thinking, & a sense of angst, to complicate his life. Why?

.

Every animal has survival instincts, so perhaps that is all there is. But man has abstract thinking ...

spare us your condescension for living Beings ... when set in the room with a hungry Lion you'll be thinking lightly of your abstract thoughts.

nothing created the Everlasting, its there for whichever Spirit may find a way to unite with its existence.

.

 

[usfan]

Re: point 1, the universe IS expanding. It's not 'some theorize it is.' It is. We can see it doing so.
As to the concepts of eternity and infinity, they are in fact only concepts and not objective realities. At least, we believe them so. And yes, everything that is, eventually isn't. Nothing in this universe is designed to last forever, not even the universe itself. Without things ending, and organisms dying, news things can't come to be. We're only here because stars in the distant past died, cast off their building blocks in nova explosions redistributing that matter which led to our Sun coming into existence, forming a gravity well which drew in particulate matter which over billions of years became the solar system, planets, and us.
God might be the god of planet Earth, but it simply couldn't be the god of the entire universe. A) God couldn't have existed prior to the universe existing, and taking just the biblical mention of God and doing some simple arithmetic you can arrive at figures showing the amount of time God has spent paying attention to us VASTLY exceeds the current age of the universe. As in if it took God 6 days to create the solar system, given how many solar systems there are (and ignoring free roaming planets not orbiting stars of which there are more than orbiting stars,) it would have taken God many millions of times longer to create everything we currently see than the universe has even existed. Plus, given how much God seems to care about this one planet, given all the others it doesn't seem like He'd be able to give the others muich time and attention if He's here concerning Himself with us.

1. What is happening, currently, either by speculation, extrapolation, or assumption, is not the point. My point was much larger than that, & incorporated eternity into the equation. I will requote that section for another reading.

1. We have no awareness of eternity past. Eons passed before our brief existence.. Universe after universe could have come & gone, while we were yet unborn. Go back as far as you can imagine.. before any 'big bang', or creative action from a deity. Some theorize that the universe is expanding. How can this be? If matter has been simplifying & spreading out, how can it come together for any reason? Was there a 'beginning'.. a 'start' of matter? Matter is incredible. Life is irrational. All matter should have drifted to infinity in complete equilibrium.. stars burnt out eons ago, & the miracle of life not even a dream. The vastness of our universe is a tiny speck in the face of infinite space. How can there be matter? It is only a collection of infinitesimal, atomic particles.

I do not see how you can say the concepts of eternity & infinite are not objective realities. They are impossible to define & test, using finite words & human effort, but they are obvious reality. Is there a wall out there where infinity ends? Yes, it is beyond our ability to test or prove infinity, but that does not make it NOT real.
2. You say 'Nothing in this universe is designed to last forever', but that is merely your belief. Some people believe that all matter has always existed, & merely changes state from time to time by mysterious processes. Some people believe that matter was miraculously created through intelligent design. We have no way of 'knowing' which of these are empirical facts, or if there is another possibility.
3. Speculating about the power & nature of God is a tough argument. If we define God as all powerful, eternal, infinite, omnipotent, how could a being like this NOT do whatever he wanted? Your imagined limitations are not there, to him. You are stuck in the finite, but not God, by definition. Now, if you want to redefine gods, or limit alleged supreme beings, why should your limits be taken as the definition? That is more speculative belief, & can't really be used as an argument against the previous definition.

 

[usfan]

spare us your condescension for living Beings ... when set in the room with a hungry Lion you'll be thinking lightly of your abstract thoughts.
nothing created the Everlasting, its there for whichever Spirit may find a way to unite with its existence.

What purpose does ad hominem have in an abstract discussion about eternity? If you find such discussions boring, don't participate. But humans for all time have been obsessed & fascinated with the ideas of eternity, infinity, God, & other such concepts.
Your pontifications about YOUR beliefs are no more empirical fact than those of anyone else.

Or do you think that smearing or insulting another human being makes you look clever?

 

[BreezeWood]

spare us your condescension for living Beings ... when set in the room with a hungry Lion you'll be thinking lightly of your abstract thoughts.
nothing created the Everlasting, its there for whichever Spirit may find a way to unite with its existence.

What purpose does ad hominem have in an abstract discussion about eternity? If you find such discussions boring, don't participate. But humans for all time have been obsessed & fascinated with the ideas of eternity, infinity, God, & other such concepts.
Your pontifications about YOUR beliefs are no more empirical fact than those of anyone else.

Or do you think that smearing or insulting another human being makes you look clever?

.

Or do you think that smearing or insulting another human being makes you look clever?

and your invection for all other living Beings isn't - ( Every animal has survival instincts, so perhaps that is all there is. But man has ... ), and defending Garden Earth is an ad hominem, good luck with that.

.

 

[usfan]

and your invection for all other living Beings isn't - ( Every animal has survival instincts, so perhaps that is all there is. But man has ... ), and defending Garden Earth is an ad hominem, good luck with that.

Here was my 'invection' according to you:

The contrast is that there 'might' be some eternal or created purpose for man, if he was created, but if he is an accident of nature, there is none. Survival is not a 'higher purpose' that fills men with angst, & philosophers minds with speculation. Every animal has survival instincts, so perhaps that is all there is. But man has abstract thinking, & a sense of angst, to complicate his life. Why?

You got an insult to 'all living things out of that? ..quite a stretch, if you ask me. Do you say that man does NOT have 'angst?' That was my only point. How do you get 'invection' out of that?

I am always befuddled how some people get real pissy on abstract concept threads. Why do you think that is? We are discussing things that are beyond empirical examination, & basically have our reason & experiences to back our opinions. One person's opinion about matters of eternity & infinity are as good as another, if their foundational arguments are sound.

So, you don't think man has angst? Or you feel that to say so is an insult to the ants? perhaps you are just oversensitive in your defense of Garden Earth. But i assure you, I was in no way demeaning any fleas, chimps, or mosquitos, just noting a seemingly human trait.