Essay I Wrote

[editec]

Okay, let me try to respond to the arguments you make rather than the presentation of them.

Clearly we were both confused about why you posted this and I do apologise for addressing the clarity of your argument rather than the points in the argument you were making.

The reality of illegal immigration is that essentially all arguments against it lack intellectual merit or validity. I live in a border state, and I can see the benefits of all forms of immigration firsthand. The myths commonly cited against illegal immigration can be easily debunked.

Okay..

So immigrants don’t pay taxes? They pay plenty of taxes. They pay sales taxes, gas taxes, and property taxes if they own a house. They pay all the taxes that anyone who works in the informal economy is required to pay.

Yes, they do assuming they are not working in the underground economy. An underground economy which I suspect (but cannot prove) actually steals work from those in the above ground economy.

Example? I am homeowner who wants somebody to do some drywalling for me. Now I can hire a contractor from the book who will charge me $20 and hour or I can hire a Mexican down at the 7-11 who is JUST as competent, for $10 an hour UNDER THE TABLE.

So we'd really need solid data to know how much ABOVE THE TABLE work is being taken by the UNDER THE TABLE work immigrants are doing.

As for those who work in the formal economy, they use fake social security numbers (an act necessitated by their illegal status) and pay payroll, income, and Social Security taxes. They’re the only ones who get a raw deal, since they don’t receive any benefits. Studies have shown that legal immigrants and citizens use far more public services than illegal immigrants do.

Good points, which I believe are proably true.

Furthermore, the members of an illegal immigrant household most likely to use public services are their children, who are naturalized American citizens. The only reason that illegal immigrants’ tax payments doesn’t match the amount of public benefits that they use is because of their impoverished economic condition and low salaries, which is directly caused by their illegal status, which prohibits them from seeking adequate forms of employment.

That may be true.

I say "may be" because I am not at all sure that American citizens paying taxes in the lower tiers of incomes match the amount of public benefits that they use, either.

Studies have shown that immigrants’ salaries and tax payments drastically increase after they receive legal status. Hence, decriminalizing border crossing and granting amnesty to illegal immigrants in the U.S. would increase their salaries and thus their tax payments.

They might. Or they might also slowly but irrevocable decrease the salaries of legal workers as I believe they currently are anyway.

More workers devalue the worth of workers generally, at least until the economy can absorb them and their contributions overall manifest as goods and services.

Or perhaps you think that they cause crime? Again, much of this can probably be directly linked to their impoverished status. Would illegal immigrants need to rob and steal if they had sufficient wages? We must acknowledge that no country or nation holds a monopoly on crime or criminals, and most illegal immigrants are among the most law abiding citizens one will encounter. Most are afraid of committing crimes because they fear that it would endanger their residency in the U.S. Furthermore, according to a 2005 report by the GAO, “We identified a population of 55,322 aliens that…had entered the country illegally and were still illegally in the country at the time of their incarceration in the country in federal or state prison or local jail during fiscal year 2003.”

I think we can both see how being a poor illegal is likely to increase crime rates, right?

It wouldn't matter if a huge influx of poor but legal citizens flooded an area, crime would still go up.

I am not of the opinion that the illegals are more prone to crime, but I am of the opinion that more poverty increases crime regardless of their citizenship status.


As to the whole issue of terrorist slipping in with Mexicans?

I dismissed that argument against illegal aliens as mindless blather a long time ago.

I won't bother to just say, YUP, yeah, right totally right over and over again.

My concerns are mostly the negative effects on the working classes right now.

I don't blame the aliens for that problem, but they do, I think, strain the realtionship between work available and the number of workers to fill those billets.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Agnost: Good post, I really hope you are looking for the truth in this mess. Ya already know my opinion. Just keep looking. Because, most of that essay was slightly south of the truth, homie. Slightly. But, what do I know? Just inane anecdotal hackneyed drivel, that's all I have. KUDOS, Agnost, for looking for the truth. It's about time. Isn't it funny you should ask our opinions or care if yer damned to hell? I had a suggestion. Remember? Move into a barrio, put that anarchist spirit of yours to the test. Or are you afraid? Or, perhaps, there is another possibility...

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

How many liberals will willingly move into a Barrio? Yer all just so gosh darn better than the rest of us, you won't commit to that degree, will you ? But you love playing superficial games on this board. Illegal aliens are great, as long as they just remain a far off dream... As long as you don't have to actually deal with the crime, the squalor or the overcrowding, all those illegal aliens are just some data point on a graph or a statistic . Well, in my world. things get complicated damned fast. Like, babysitting three Hispanic kids that are cute as a button in my casa, hommie. My relatives communicate in Spanglish. They are as real and human as you are . And guess what? People can still immigrate legally and spare us all the f*cking heartache. The kids, the people like me that don't want to get caught in this crap, all of us. What say you, that, Agnost? You have immunity because you are...what are you, anyway?

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

I just thought of a quote from Stalin, a Socialist/communist antihero you might relate to, Agnost. "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million, a statistic"... food for thought, boyo. Statistics. Piled up like cord wood, like so many sardines in a can. Manufactured consent? What would Noam Chomsky say? I bet he's turning over in his grave, I know, he ain't dead yet. Somebody is manufacturing consent for illegal aliens, boyo. I hate to point fingers.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Interesting icon you have Agnost, a Peace sign made of AK-47s. Contrarian, yeah, my sweet bippy. Here's a another weird ass communist quote: "This war is not as in the past; whoever occupies a territory also imposes on it his own social system. Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach. It cannot be otherwise.....
Said in April, 1945, as quoted in Conversations with Stalin (1963) by Milovan Djilas.
Illegal aliens are doing just that, buckwheat. Statistics my ass. I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, either, I'm sure yer familiar with that trite old ditty. All those illegal aliens that kill, rape and ignore American laws, they are not here for humanitarian reasons. For shizzle, they aint. And you aren't supporting them because you feel pity deeply in your heart, either. Differece is, I live with these assholes, you make up excuses for them. Big difference.

 

[editec]

Interesting icon you have Agnost, a Peace sign made of AK-47s. Contrarian, yeah, my sweet bippy. Here's a another weird ass communist quote: "This war is not as in the past; whoever occupies a territory also imposes on it his own social system. Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach. It cannot be otherwise.....
Said in April, 1945, as quoted in Conversations with Stalin (1963) by Milovan Djilas.
Illegal aliens are doing just that, buckwheat. Statistics my ass. I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, either, I'm sure yer familiar with that trite old ditty. All those illegal aliens that kill, rape and ignore American laws, they are not here for humanitarian reasons. For shizzle, they aint. And you aren't supporting them because you feel pity deeply in your heart, either. Differece is, I live with these assholes, you make up excuses for them. Big difference.

It is remarkable easy for those of us who are not competing with those illegals for jobs, no competing with them for places to live, not having to deal with them on the streets to be sanguine about the problem, that's for damned sure.

One does not have to hate Mexicans to wish they'd stay in Mexico.

There is a limit to the amount of new blood that any society can absorb and stay stable and apparently the illegal immigrants exceeded that limit quite some time ago.

One in 8 people in the USA are legal aliens, so this complaint has nothing to do with Americans hating immigrants...it has to do with the breakdown of social services, the strain that these new people put on a system designed for far less people than are currently using it.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Agnost; Let me quote a inteligent source you can relate to: YOU. "Your failure to respond was a great enough indication that you did not possess the ability to do so."

 

[Wolfmoon]

The reality of illegal immigration is that essentially all arguments against it lack intellectual merit or validity. I live in a border state, and I can see the benefits of all forms of immigration firsthand. The myths commonly cited against illegal immigration can be easily debunked.

Well how about it's against the law? Why don't you debunk the federal laws?

Any person who encourages or induces an illegal alien to reside knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such resident is in violation of the law, shall be punished as provided, for each illegal alien in respect to whom such a violaton occurs, fined under title 18 and imprisoned not more than 5 years.

Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeitures of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization staus is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subjecto private civil suits for trebel damages and injunctive relief.

Just type this law number into your browser and you can read more.

SECTION 8 USC 1324(A)(1)(A)(iv)(B)(iii)

 

[Agnapostate]

I already said that I would respond to this when I had reliable Internet access again. But your concern is dismissable enough in that legal policy is separate from ethical matters, as I initially pointed out. For instance, slavery may have been legal at one point but that says nothing to its ethical status.

 

[midcan5]

That doesn't really say anything to its ethical wrongness, though. Aiding runaway slaves may have been illegal, for instance, but that doesn't make it ethically wrong. Quite the contrary, in fact.

In the court of law law is the issue not the moral high mindedness of something. Is it ethical that illegals work for low wages taking work away from other Americans who also work for low wages? Is it ethical to have your child born here for a variety of reasons? Is it ethical to work under the table when others are trying to obtain a fair living wage? Is it ethical, we can even use 'fair,' to take jobs just because you come from a society that has no jobs? But I see your point even when it is a problem. But having seen cash businesses and illegals firsthand, it diminishes any society when the rules that most live by are ignored by too many.

"If support for legalizing illegal immigrants can run as high as 78 percent, it seems fair to conclude that intense opposition to such a step is confined to a small minority. But if support for deporting illegal immigrants can run as high as 69 percent when no alternative is offered, effective organizing can easily make the anti-amnesty vote look much larger."

NYRB: The Immigration Charade - Council on Foreign Relations
The Immigration Charade - The New York Review of Books

 

[bellyman]

Your failure to respond was a great enough indication that you did not possess the ability to do so.

Dude...several people responded. You just didn't like what they said.

My Opinion here:
While I am 'conservative' in my thinking, I think we should have amnesty for illegals.
Not because, 'they deserve it', or they're repressed or exploited here, or because they're 'good people'....but basically because it would be too f%^&ing expensive to round them up and deport them.

My plan is as follows:
1: S T R E N G T H E N the border.
-Post the NG along w/the BP.
-If we catch them..DEPORT them asap.

2: Register those who wish to apply for amnesty.
- No criminal record, good upstanding citizens.
- Give a 5-7yr time frame to nationalize.
--IF they fail to do so in that time period...GONE they are and their kids.

3: Revoke the natural born part of the Constitution for kids of illegals born here
- MAybe make this step 1

 

[Agnapostate]

Why do you bother? I said that I would offer you a more extensive response when I had regular Internet access again. For now, I'll keep your claims in mind.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

I re-read your essay, Agonost. The opening statement: " The reality of illegal immigration is that essentially all arguments against it lack intellectual merit or validity. I live in a border state, and I can see the benefits of all forms of immigration firsthand. The myths commonly cited against illegal immigration can be easily debunked." Damn. That makes everything just spiffy. Swell intellectual counter-argument. We notice illegals suck, but we suck for noticing they do. Agnost : Your whole screed here is based on the fact we notice illegal aliens, that makes us bad. Yeah, right. You sound so much like another Quisling apologist for them . But, thanks for posting! I give you the Golden Bunghole Award for excellence. Keep up the good work.

 

[Harry Dresden]

more dribble Agna....but since me and you have already jousted on this,i will leave this to these guys.....

 

[Wolfmoon]

The reality of illegal immigration is that essentially all arguments against it lack intellectual merit or validity. I live in a border state, and I can see the benefits of all forms of immigration firsthand.

Bonilla, Pedro Antonio
WANTED FOR
Murder, Attempt Murder, Kidnap, Carjacking

As for those who work in the formal economy, they use fake social security numbers (an act necessitated by their illegal status)

Studies have shown that legal immigrants and citizens use far more public services than illegal immigrants do.

Hence, decriminalizing border crossing and granting amnesty to illegal immigrants in the U.S. would increase their salaries and thus their tax payments.

But maybe you think that they all deserve punishment and deportation since they are all criminals who have broken the law.

Buh Bye...

Can a border ever be entirely secured? YES!

Instead of impractically stretching guards thinly across borders that they could not feasibly protect, it’s a far superior strategy to guard major targets efficiently.

As I said, if a person has knowledge that a bank in a city will be robbed, he doesn’t spread the guards around the entire city with major entry points left unguarded; he has them tightly patrol the bank.

 

[SW2SILVER]

Agnost: How about writing a essay on ethics? Or is that conflict of interest? Supporting illegal aliens might get a little dicey...

 

[Gunny]

Your failure to understand my response is an indication of your (lack) of ability.
Go blow your nose.

Really, post something rational or don't post anything.

From what you've been posting, I'm guessing you've already found the pot.

You don't decide who does and doesn't post on this board, forum, nor thread.

YOUR argument is lame. How about YOU posting something rational?

 

[Agnapostate]

You don't decide who does and doesn't post on this board, forum, nor thread.

YOUR argument is lame. How about YOU posting something rational?

Why don't you set an example first? You haven't offered any valid criticism of my arguments.

 

[SW2SILVER]

Your failure to respond..might be a simple case of hubris.

 

[Agnapostate]

Is there a reason you think I'm done, Squishy?