Essay I Wrote

Discussion in 'Immigration/Illegal Immigration' started by Agnapostate, Nov 15, 2008.

  1. Agnapostate
    Offline

    Agnapostate BANNED

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    6,860
    Thanks Received:
    344
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Quake State
    Ratings:
    +344
    Just reposting an essay I wrote regarding illegal immigration here, as I like to get the greatest possible amount of commentary on this issue...It was originally written as a response in a debate, but it addresses many of the major points used by anti-immigration apologists. Share your thoughts if you're interested.

     
  2. editec
    Offline

    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    41,427
    Thanks Received:
    5,598
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Maine
    Ratings:
    +5,617
    Okay, I'll make like a teacher for you.. It would help I we knew the assignment, though.

    Wow. that's going to be mighty hard to prove...even if it is true. You have already written yourself into a corner.


    Okay, do so

    Good point. It fails to address the question of whether the combined positive effects of they're being here exceed the social costs (and government costs) of them being here, but the point you do make has merit.


    True. Those not working in the underground economy definitely are helping the system and getting nothing back for it.


    Citing those studies would do much to strengthen your argument here.



    Assuming they were born here, yes.


    Much like most citizens workers of this nation don't you mean? Quite right.


    Well...possibly true up to a point. You point presumes that if they had legal status they could get a job that pays a LOT more than they currently make and I am not at all sure that is true. EXPECIALLY given that most citizesn in the USA cannot find those better paying jobs, either, I mean.

    What studies? If this paper is for school, you need to document your declaritive points better than you do. Anybody can say anything, but providing supporting evidence to support those declarations is what scholars do.

    Assuming that they can find better paying jobs, of course... a declarative statement that you haven't really proved.

    Yes poverty and crime seem to go along. But you're actually making the case for exclusing them with the above.



    A statement of faith, based on what data?


    You're supporting the antithesis of your original argument here, I think.

    Big difference in crimes. Needs further clarification

    Okay, at least you're beginnign to support you argument with some evidence to support it there.

    By dialing 911 just like citizens?

    Good point.



    Excellent points

    We might.

    Interesting discussion but not really germane to the question of illegal immigration, I think.

    The above is a fascinating topic but it's not really about illegal immigration, is it?

    If you're in high school, this is a pretty good paper.

    You need to focus specifically on the topic at hand though.

    You drifted off topic toward the end, because the question of illegal immigrants and terrorism are so marginally related that your paper lost its argumentative momentum.
     
  3. Agnapostate
    Offline

    Agnapostate BANNED

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    6,860
    Thanks Received:
    344
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Quake State
    Ratings:
    +344
    I'm unsure as to why you responded. You don't seem to have rebutted my post, only made odd and condescending remarks about this being a "high school paper."

    If you're interested in knowing more about it, I'd advise you to study it.

    Not especially. If I had, you would have provided a compelling rebuttal to the essay. But you essentially didn't provide even one compelling rebuttal, merely advisories to cite sources, which I would have done on request anyway.

    I do believe I did.

    Individual points build themselves up together. Keep that in mind.

    That's true.

    All you had to do was make a request for them. Ask, and you shall receive. :eusa_pray:

    :razz:

    The fact in question is affirmed by Stephen Camarota of the Center for Immigration Studies.

    The High Cost of Cheap Labor: Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget

    (Incidentally, Camarota is opposed to amnesty for illegal immigrants, so he is not a biased source, at least in terms of bias in favor of illegal immigrants.)

    But really now, these statements of yours are not rebuttals to my arguments. Considering that you say that I am a "sophist," I would have expected something a bit more...substantive.

    And the majority of them are, so it's not a leap of faith.

    No, to a greater extent than those citizen workers. The citizen workers are not directly disenfranchised by the state to the same extent.

    They cannot, however, the fact of the matter is that legal immigrants and their descendants gradually earn greater incomes once they have gained full legitimacy in the formal economy.

    Undocumented Immigrants in Georgia: Tax Contribution and Fiscal Concerns

    "For school?" What is this nonsense? Where do you get the idea that I'm in high school or wrote something "for school?"

    See above.

    No, I'm not. Criminalization of undocumented immigration is the current American policy. It is under that policy that crime and poverty rates among immigrants have skyrocketed. Is there a logical reason why amnesty, which would provide illegal immigrants with a legal status, (and thus permit them to access the aforementioned merits attainable through legal status), would not work?

    The majority of illegal immigrants are not interested in committing crimes, as it will endanger their residence in the U.S. This is simple common sense. Nonetheless, I believe the Harvard study I cited established that immigrants do not commit an egregious level of crimes compared to citizens.

    How so?

    Among men aged 18 to 40 in the U.S., immigrants are about a third less likely than the native-born to be incarcerated.

    If you needed more, you could have just asked.

    And getting arrested themselves for illegal residence?

    Why comment if you're not going to rebut?

    Why comment if you're not going to rebut?

    Why comment if you're not going to rebut?

    It's germane to the question of illegal immigration because the problem of terrorism is commonly cited as a rationale for border sealing.

    I'm not in high school, but thanks for the compliment.

    The reason that the flow of the paper is interrupted is because it was originally a point-by-point response to another poster addressing common arguments, and I thought it could be utilized here.

    I'm really not sure why you even bothered responding to what I wrote. It seemed that you offered no real criticisms, just vague dismissals on the basis of your assumption that this was a "high school paper." Seems quite condescending to me. I don't believe you've offered any compelling rebuttals.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  4. indago
    Offline

    indago VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,049
    Thanks Received:
    98
    Trophy Points:
    85
    Ratings:
    +180
    Agnapostate wrote:
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    So immigrants don’t pay taxes? They pay plenty of taxes.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    First your talking "illegal" immigrants, and now you are talking just immigrants. That is a Bait'nSwitch.

    http://www.usmessageboard.com/900729-post59.html
     
  5. editec
    Offline

    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    41,427
    Thanks Received:
    5,598
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Maine
    Ratings:
    +5,617
    I didn't realize my role was to rebutt or to confirm your theories, either.

    I assumed you wanted a critique of your paper as an argumentative essay.

    I gave you the benefit of my thoughts on where its arguments failed and where I thought you were onto a line of reasoning that was supporting your argument.

    I didn't mean for my comments to be condensending, I meant for them to be helpful so you could craft a stronger essay.

    Critiquing essays like these is what I used to do for a living, after all.

    Since your basic premise was the following:

    I have to tell you that you failed to live up to your promise that you would show that all the arguments against illegla immigration lacked intellectualy merit and validity.

    If you were a high school senior in my composition class, I'd have given you a gentleman's C for that paper.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  6. Agnapostate
    Offline

    Agnapostate BANNED

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    6,860
    Thanks Received:
    344
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Quake State
    Ratings:
    +344
    Since you did not post a single valid argument yourself, you are not in a position to claim that I have "failed to live up to my argument." If there is an argument that you believe I cannot sufficiently address, by all means, post it.

    As you have posted nothing in the way of arguments, I shall assume that you cannot provide any.
     
  7. Epsilon Delta
    Offline

    Epsilon Delta Jedi Master

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,687
    Thanks Received:
    363
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Central America
    Ratings:
    +364
    I thought it presented the issue very well, although you're lacking all the sources.

    The reasoning is correct, though. Of course, being illegal, their living standards suck. Imagine YOU had to cross that border, save money to pay the coyotes, get on a boat, or walk through the desert, possibly dying, getting defrauded, or shot at by hillbillies. It's not an experience you'd wanna have to go through again, or do for nothing. It's pretty clear that it's pretty desperate. With crime, even riskier- it must be a strong incentive. Reporting crime, it's too risky as well. The only reasonable solution is to raise the living standards of these people, and bring them out to pay taxes and becoming members of the formal economy. Gangs and crime are common everywhere with bad economic conditions and opportunities (i.e. slums in big cities or among underclasses).

    It does have positive effects in the economic realm. What is the only incentive that companies have to hire illegals? That they'll work for the lowest wages and be unable to do anything about it (no unions, no nothing). If they're legal that incentive is gone, and they just become regular workers. The fact that the majority is young is also beneficial, as a young population is almost requisite for sustained social services. And it goes beyond the US, remittances account for a a huge percentage of some extremely poor countries' economies (regions of Mexico, and of course Guatemala, Salvador, Honduras, etc.) This is a very useful development tool because it puts money in the hands of people, and not organizations or governments. Ultimately, I think most would agree that development in the region is of not insignificant importance to the US in the long term. Everyone is pretty familiar with the Somali pirates now, well, a failed state has such effects. Failing states are not a pretty thing, and can turn out very expensive. And of course, it increases the market for goods, many of which are probably from the US anyway.

    In Costa Rica we have a similar issue, the difference being that Nicaraguans come into Costa Rica to work legally or illegally. During the brutal rape of the country in the 80s there were as many as 500,000 around the place. I believe remittances from Costa Rica to Nicaragua are ultimately beneficial to us, as well. No country is an island, and protectionism is dead. The problem is the fact that what is marketed as free trade is not "free" at all. It's managed trade, with disproportionate benefits towards Capital, Technology, and Finance. It facilitates the movement of capital (what the rich have), but seeks to restrain the movement of labor (what poor people have). And the same policies usually go hand in hand with cutting social services- basically subsidizing private capital profit at the expense of the public. The only way that liberalized markets can work is with a strong and effective provision of services to "buffer" the impact of the market.
     
  8. editec
    Offline

    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    41,427
    Thanks Received:
    5,598
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Maine
    Ratings:
    +5,617
    Exactly.

    FREE TRADE is not remotely free.

    Freeing capital to seek the best deal anywhere in the world does nothing but devalue labor worldwide.

    How any American worker even remotely interested in this subject cannot see that obvious fact totally mystifies, me to be honest.

    I don't care if you're a well paid worker making $250k a year or an $8 per hours clerk, our current free trade policies are not going to serve you well in the long run.
     
  9. Bern80
    Offline

    Bern80 Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,094
    Thanks Received:
    720
    Trophy Points:
    138
    Ratings:
    +726
    You won't find me defending editec a lot, but in this case he his spot on. First of all in your original post you didn't A)tell us what kind of response you wanted and B) if you had it would be irrellevant as we have the freedom to respond to your post however we choose.

    You wanted to share your essay, that implies that it was for a class of some type. As a person who has had a few papers graded up to the masters level, whether this paper was about illegal immigration or believing in space aliens, on a purely academic level you can't get away with this much past the 9th grade.

    Editec critiqued it purely from an academic standpoint. that being the case whether one believes in your argument or not becomes irrelevant When you essentially say here is my ESSAY, tell me what you think, I probably would have responded in much the same way.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2008
  10. Agnapostate
    Offline

    Agnapostate BANNED

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2008
    Messages:
    6,860
    Thanks Received:
    344
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The Quake State
    Ratings:
    +344
    Well, I didn't realize that we had continued discussion of this topic, since I didn't get a thread notification. At any rate, my intent was to present an argument for providing amnesty to illegal immigrants in the same manner that other arguments are forwarded here. I do apologize if I was overly vague.

    And yes, I did provide sources in my response, as I was willing to do upon request.
     

Share This Page