Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[Annie]

That's about as simple as it gets. It's also different for each service. No knock on the USAF, but they hardly have to face the same proximity living that the Navy and Marines do while deployed aboard ship. You can reach out and touch at least two, usually three people from your rack on US warship.

Then there's the two-man fighting hole (foxhole in Army terminology) and/or the two man tent. Can't say as I'd want to be stuck in either with a gay.

my guess, worse if one is in a submarine?

 

[Gunny]

my guess, worse if one is in a submarine?

Fire 'im out the torpedo tube.

 

[CSM]

The whole argument is bogus, is how I feel about it. "Don't ask don't tell" basically says someone's sex life is not a part of their professional life. The only people who want this removed are the ones who want to flaunt their homosexuality.

Plain and simple, rules or no, homosexuals who are found out in the Marine Corps get their asses kicked if they aren't put into protective custody until they are processed out.

The presence of a known homosexual in a unit destroys that unit's integrity. A unit is a team, and like it or not, bullshit trying to legislate morality when you cannot or not, a known homosexual is the same as depositing a white wolf into a pack of grays. Like it or not, knowing someone is a homosexual DOES make a difference; especially, to a bunch of alpha-males.

The real issue is exactly as Gunny is portraying. Most do not care if you are gay, and probably wouldn't notice. What makes it an issue is when the "flaming fairy" comes out in his pink cammo and dances around the barracks on tip toe singing "I'm tho thpecial cauthe I'm gay". That may be an exaggeration but you get the drift.

Also, you have to realize that there is a good reason that male soldiers have separate facilities considerationss have to apply for hetero vs. homo.

I was assigned to a unit that had a small clique of homosexuals (they happened to be lesbian) and were open about it. This little clique was led by a female Staff Sergeant and she ruled with an iron fist. She intimidated every new female soldier (even the married ones) that came to the unit, openly subverted the chain of command at every turn and was just generally disruptive to the point that her particular platoon was no longer effective. The situation was so bad the even the unit commander was afraid of her and her clique and refused to do anything about it. This situation was the very reason myself and a few others were assigned to this unit. It took a few months, but we managed to straighten the situation out. The female SSGT did finally publicly proclaim her "gayness" and we were finally able to get her out of the Army. This one lesbian managed to render this unit combat ineffective for over two years....and yes it was directly related to her sexual preferences....

 

[Gunny]

The real issue is exactly as Gunny is portraying. Most do not care if you are gay, and probably wouldn't notice. What makes it an issue is when the "flaming fairy" comes out in his pink cammo and dances around the barracks on tip toe singing "I'm tho thpecial cauthe I'm gay". That may be an exaggeration but you get the drift.

Also, you have to realize that there is a good reason that male soldiers have separate facilities considerationss have to apply for hetero vs. homo.

I was assigned to a unit that had a small clique of homosexuals (they happened to be lesbian) and were open about it. This little clique was led by a female Staff Sergeant and she ruled with an iron fist. She intimidated every new female soldier (even the married ones) that came to the unit, openly subverted the chain of command at every turn and was just generally disruptive to the point that her particular platoon was no longer effective. The situation was so bad the even the unit commander was afraid of her and her clique and refused to do anything about it. This situation was the very reason myself and a few others were assigned to this unit. It took a few months, but we managed to straighten the situation out. The female SSGT did finally publicly proclaim her "gayness" and we were finally able to get her out of the Army. This one lesbian managed to render this unit combat ineffective for over two years....and yes it was directly related to her sexual preferences....

ITA. Gays have always been in the military. As a non-issue, there is no effect. It's the one's that want to throw their homosexuality in everyone's face that push this issue.

 

[pegwinn]

I cannot imagine a more disruptive influence on a combat unit than to discover a homosexual among them. Most folks could give a damn less about what civilians do, they're crazy anyway. But you see the gay and wonder what else he lied about.

Additionally, care to guess where transfusion blood comes from?

Line troops, support troops, troops in trucks, troops in helos, troops in the same grid square as the aid station. What is the odds of HIV strait to gay? You really don't want to lose faith in the blood supply. You may be the next doner, or recipient.

 

[jillian]

Well, in theory, women are still not allowed to fill combat roles. That fact however has not kept them from being killed in combat. Of course, with the way things are now, it would be pretty hard to define a role that is not "combat".

Just my personal opinion which means absolutely nothing, but I dont think it much matters if one is gay, female, etc. The sexual harrassment regs cover it. What does matter is making special rules and qualifications for women or gays. I f they are going to compete for promotions etc, then the criteria and qualifications need to be the same for both. If gays start asking for special criteria (perhaps to fill some kind of quota) then it would indeed be wrong.

It's my understanding that they just don't want to be discharged if they say that they're gay. I agree that beyond that, there shouldn't be any special criteria.

 

[Gunny]

It's my understanding that they just don't want to be discharged if they say that they're gay. I agree that beyond that, there shouldn't be any special criteria.

Clarification: By law, they cannot be discharged for merely disclosing that they are gay. Homosexuality in and of itself is not the crime. Engaging in homosexual acts is the crime. It is a violation of military law.

It has been my experience that those who disclose that they are gay do so because they WANT the discharge, and are willing to destroy their personal reputation to get it.

Technically, by law, a servicemember can admit to being homosexual with no fear of punitive repercussion provided they do not admit to living a gay lifestyle/engaging in homosexual acts at any point during their career. The reality is, should that individual attempt to stay after disclosure, he/she probably won't see another promotion and/or reenlistment.

While I have seen gays processed out, I was never around any that admitted it and wanted to stay. In the Corps, that would be a rather suicidal idea. When a gay is found out, if they aren't put into protective custody immediately, wolfpack rules WILL normally be the result, and what some civilian who will never have to suffer the consequences of their actions thinks about it is irrelevant to a bunch of 18-22 years old Marines who pride themselves on being the elite of men among men. Homosexuals represent everything Marines in general are intolerant of.

That of course is in addition to the practical side of things previously listed.

 

[pegwinn]

While I have seen gays processed out, I was never around any that admitted it and wanted to stay. In the Corps, that would be a rather suicidal idea. When a gay is found out, if they aren't put into protective custody immediately, wolfpack rules WILL normally be the result,

About that blood transfusion........

 

[Gunny]

About that blood transfusion........

I'm not sure being splattered all over the deck counts as an approved, AMA "transfusion."

 

[Niccolò Matteo]

When a country starts forcing men and women to join the military, it becomes a tyranny. When a country starts turning down men and women who voluntarily wish to join the army, it becomes idiocy.

 

[theHawk]

Well if we didn't have the 'don't ask don't tell' policy I don't see how we could maintain a Navy. :teeth:



Seriously though, people can be gay and stay in if they really want to. I knew of a gay female and gay male that got married just for the sake of being able to move off base. It'd probably be tough to make a 20+ year career but I don't think its a big problem for 1 or 2 term-ers.

 

[mattskramer]

Whatever happened to the “men” in the Tailhook scandal? Perhaps gays could have taught those heterosexual soldiers some manners.

 

[Gunny]

Whatever happened to the “men” in the Tailhook scandal? Perhaps gays could have taught those heterosexual soldiers some manners.

GMAFB. The "men" in the Tailhook scandal were just scapegoats. Political correctness had overtaken their ways of carrying on that had been perfectly acceptable in previous times.

Be that as it may, it was men groping at women, no homosexuals allowed; which, makes your comment irrelevant and dumb.

 

[mattskramer]

GMAFB. The "men" in the Tailhook scandal were just scapegoats. Political correctness had overtaken their ways of carrying on that had been perfectly acceptable in previous times.

Be that as it may, it was men groping at women, no homosexuals allowed; which, makes your comment irrelevant and dumb.

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dyna...org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/navy/tailhook/

The incident consisted of more than just a few women getting groped. Read the story. Even if women did get groped, such behavior is not acceptable and should never have been acceptable in the past. Such men, who behave in that fashion, should not be allowed to remain in the military. If women are to be allowed in the military, then I see no reason why homosexuals should be excluded - as long as the men behave themselves.

 

[pegwinn]

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dyna...org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/navy/tailhook/

The incident consisted of more than just a few women getting groped. Read the story. Even if women did get groped, such behavior is not acceptable and should never have been acceptable in the past. True. However, there is a process for dealing with unacceptable conduct. Additionally, like it or not, testosterone is a male attribute. It is an enter at your own risk situation. Such men, who behave in that fashion, should not be allowed to remain in the military. With respect, nonsense. Speaking for the Marines, we are not a social club. The purpose for a Marine Corps is to impose our national will on an enemy by breaking things and killing people. The knights of old (those credited with chivalry and gentlemanly conduct, killed in the name of king and country as well. If women are to be allowed in the military, then I see no reason why homosexuals should be excluded - as long as the men behave themselves.

Matt, there are three classes of requirements.

Need to Have: Those skills, materials, and abilities absolutely required to accomplish the mission. Without them, it is impossible.

Good to Have: Those skills, abilities, and material that enhance mission accomplishment. You can get it done, but the good to have stuff sure helps.

Nice to Have: Stuff that has no bearing on whether you can or cannot accomplish the mission. It may give you a warm fuzzy, but you can definitely do without it. Manners, and the knowledge of which fork to poke at the salad with, fall into the nice to have category.

 

[Gunny]

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dyna...org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/navy/tailhook/

The incident consisted of more than just a few women getting groped. Read the story. Even if women did get groped, such behavior is not acceptable and should never have been acceptable in the past. Such men, who behave in that fashion, should not be allowed to remain in the military. If women are to be allowed in the military, then I see no reason why homosexuals should be excluded - as long as the men behave themselves.

I don't need to read the story. I had a 24 hour standdown that consisted of political correctness training concerning the event.

Whether or not you think it should have been acceptable in the past is irrelevant.

Those men who you think shouldn't be allowed to remain in the military are the best damned fighter pilots in the World, and I'd rather have them a phone call away than some fairy who'd like as not fly in on his own wings.

 

[UnAmericanYOU]

Blast from the past?


Pentagon Lists Homosexuality as Disorder
Associated Press | June 20, 2006
WASHINGTON - A Pentagon document classifies homosexuality as a mental disorder, decades after mental health experts abandoned that position.

The document outlines retirement or other discharge policies for service members with physical disabilities, and in a section on defects lists homosexuality alongside mental retardation and personality disorders.

Critics said the reference underscores the Pentagon's failing policies on gays, and adds to a culture that has created uncertainty and insecurity around the treatment of homosexual service members, leading to anti-gay harassment.

Rest, from: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...101883,00.html

"Don't ask, don't tell" was a compromise solution that solved nothing.

 

[mattskramer]

Matt, there are three classes of requirements.

Need to Have: Those skills, materials, and abilities absolutely required to accomplish the mission. Without them, it is impossible.

Good to Have: Those skills, abilities, and material that enhance mission accomplishment. You can get it done, but the good to have stuff sure helps.

Nice to Have: Stuff that has no bearing on whether you can or cannot accomplish the mission. It may give you a warm fuzzy, but you can definitely do without it. Manners, and the knowledge of which fork to poke at the salad with, fall into the nice to have category.

Yeah yeah yeah. So what? I don’t care if one of the soldiers was also the president of the USA or the muscle bound governor of California. In my book, there is still something to be said for class and character. Groping and harassment should not be tolerated from gays or straights – particularly in the military.

That old cliché “boys will be boys” or “let them let of stream” is simply an unacceptable cop-out.

 

[Gunny]

Yeah yeah yeah. So what? I don’t care if one of the soldiers was also the president of the USA or the muscle bound governor of California. In my book, there is still something to be said for class and character. Groping and harassment should not be tolerated from gays or straights – particularly in the military.

That old cliché “boys will be boys” or “let them let of stream” is simply an unacceptable cop-out.

Fuck what YOU want. Get back to us after you've called in your first close air support mission. I want the best at what they do, and their manners be damned.

Smarmy little PC people like you should have to NEED some close air support sometime, or ANY combat support for that matter. Being PC doesn't qualify you to do shit but work at the Headquarters in the military.

 

[mattskramer]

Fuck what YOU want. Get back to us after you've called in your first close air support mission. I want the best at what they do, and their manners be damned.

Smarmy little PC people like you should have to NEED some close air support sometime, or ANY combat support for that matter. Being PC doesn't qualify you to do shit but work at the Headquarters in the military.

First air support mission?!? Tell it to George Bush.

If I need air support I wouldn’t care if came form a heterosexual person or from a homosexual person.