Does the 2nd Amendment Cover Ammo?

[EatMorChikin]

, Muslims in the United States are more often the victims of ideological violence than the perpetrators of it.

Have anything to back that statement up, besides your random musings?

 

[EatMorChikin]

Not exactly true.
The state can infringe your right so long at such infringement confirms to the standards of strict scrutiny.
This is, of course, exceedingly difficult to do as the state must show a compelling interest for the infringement, that the infringement meets that interest, and that it is least restrictve means of doing so.

Agreed. I don't think Americans are ready to get rid of background checks to prevent felons and crazy people from getting guns. Nearly all gun rights supporters including myself want to make sure that certain people can't just walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun.

Except background checks fail in preventing felons and crazy people from getting guns, for obvious reasons.

The conclusion that must be drawn from this is that those background checks are really meant for exactly those folks all gun rights supporters agree should not have their rights questioned.

The real question should be, what actual purpose does the requirement for background checks on only those who submit to them serve? Is that purpose in the interest of those folks all gun rights supporters agree should not have their rights questioned?

Background checks make it very hard for felons to get guns because it blocks the easiest method, buying it from a store.

Doesn't seem to me like criminals have any issue getting guns, especially those criminals who were not criminals until they committed their first crime.
That many people think something is a "good idea" is not sufficient argument to infringe a right.

Then start a political movement to eliminate background checks and you'll see it for yourself, that nearly all Americans oppose it, including and especially law abiding gun owners. I don't feel my rights are being infringed by my government making sure I can get a gun but Felony Frank cannot. I don't think there was ever a period in American history, even at our founding that there existed the absurd notion that anyone should be able to have a gun.

There is a problem tho. Those reasons to be denied are ever expanding. And it will continue to expand, until any type of offense will prohibit you from buying. Shall not be infringed, so much for that.

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

, Muslims in the United States are more often the victims of ideological violence than the perpetrators of it.

Have anything to back that statement up, besides your random musings?

According to the latest FBI statistics, there were more than 160 anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2013. Mosques and Islamic centers have been firebombed and vandalized; seven mosques were attacked during Ramadan alone in 2012. Several Muslims, or people thought to be Muslim, have been murdered or viciously attacked. In 2010, a white college student and self-described patriot tried to slash the throat of Bangladeshi cab driver Ahmed Sharif. The white supremacist who slaughtered six people in a Sikh temple in 2012 may have thought he was targeting Muslims. So, apparently, did Erika Menendez, the homeless New Yorker who pushed a man named Sunando Sen in front of a subway train that same year.
The Most Common Type of American Terrorist Is a White Man With a Weapon and a Grudge The Nation

 

[M14 Shooter]

Then start a political movement to eliminate background checks and you'll see it for yourself, that nearly all Americans oppose it

Better to take it to court as the argument against them is insurmountable.

I don't think there was ever a period in American history, even at our founding that there existed the absurd notion that anyone should be able to have a gun.

You know that it's only been since 1968 that felons, et al, could not legally buy a gun, right?
What do you suppose Madison, et al, would say if you told them that before you bought a gun, you'd have to get permission from the federal government?

 

[M14 Shooter]

No, it's not. For the first, the right is maintained but abridged. The second implies its removal for all citizens.

Why do you believe that "infringe" must equate to "removal for all citizens"?

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Agreed. I don't think Americans are ready to get rid of background checks to prevent felons and crazy people from getting guns. Nearly all gun rights supporters including myself want to make sure that certain people can't just walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun.

Except background checks fail in preventing felons and crazy people from getting guns, for obvious reasons.

The conclusion that must be drawn from this is that those background checks are really meant for exactly those folks all gun rights supporters agree should not have their rights questioned.

The real question should be, what actual purpose does the requirement for background checks on only those who submit to them serve? Is that purpose in the interest of those folks all gun rights supporters agree should not have their rights questioned?

Background checks make it very hard for felons to get guns because it blocks the easiest method, buying it from a store.

Doesn't seem to me like criminals have any issue getting guns, especially those criminals who were not criminals until they committed their first crime.
That many people think something is a "good idea" is not sufficient argument to infringe a right.

Then start a political movement to eliminate background checks and you'll see it for yourself, that nearly all Americans oppose it, including and especially law abiding gun owners. I don't feel my rights are being infringed by my government making sure I can get a gun but Felony Frank cannot. I don't think there was ever a period in American history, even at our founding that there existed the absurd notion that anyone should be able to have a gun.

There is a problem tho. Those reasons to be denied are ever expanding. And it will continue to expand, until any type of offense will prohibit you from buying. Shall not be infringed, so much for that.

Yes, that is a problem. The Lautenberg Amendment should be repealed immediately and personally I think Frank Lautenberg should be dragged out into the street and shot at dawn for crimes against the Constitution. Yes I said that. I still think there needs to be some way we aren't letting violent felons buy a gun at the nearest gun store. If you have a better idea on how to accomplish that, I'd sure like to hear it.

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

I love watching the left writhe in pain these past 4 years, every election has been a gift.

We hated it when Romney landslided Obama ...sure enuff...

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

, Muslims in the United States are more often the victims of ideological violence than the perpetrators of it.

What the hell is "ideological violence?"

It doesn't matter what Muslims do when they are a tiny minority. The empirical evidence shows that the larger their numbers grow, the more insolent their demands become. Muslims in this country are already quite insolent.

Not only that white dude the Negroes are "uppity"

 

[EatMorChikin]

, Muslims in the United States are more often the victims of ideological violence than the perpetrators of it.

Have anything to back that statement up, besides your random musings?

According to the latest FBI statistics, there were more than 160 anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2013. Mosques and Islamic centers have been firebombed and vandalized; seven mosques were attacked during Ramadan alone in 2012. Several Muslims, or people thought to be Muslim, have been murdered or viciously attacked. In 2010, a white college student and self-described patriot tried to slash the throat of Bangladeshi cab driver Ahmed Sharif. The white supremacist who slaughtered six people in a Sikh temple in 2012 may have thought he was targeting Muslims. So, apparently, did Erika Menendez, the homeless New Yorker who pushed a man named Sunando Sen in front of a subway train that same year.
The Most Common Type of American Terrorist Is a White Man With a Weapon and a Grudge The Nation

No stats to show what koranimals do? Oh yeah when they go nuts it's just simple workplace violence. I don't figure when a black murders a white randomly, they are looking at whether they are muslim or not. Gotta love stats that are skewed to protect the religion of piss.

And I searched to see muslim crime against Americans, and all I got was crimes against muslims. Total joke!

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

, Muslims in the United States are more often the victims of ideological violence than the perpetrators of it.

Have anything to back that statement up, besides your random musings?

According to the latest FBI statistics, there were more than 160 anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2013. Mosques and Islamic centers have been firebombed and vandalized; seven mosques were attacked during Ramadan alone in 2012. Several Muslims, or people thought to be Muslim, have been murdered or viciously attacked. In 2010, a white college student and self-described patriot tried to slash the throat of Bangladeshi cab driver Ahmed Sharif. The white supremacist who slaughtered six people in a Sikh temple in 2012 may have thought he was targeting Muslims. So, apparently, did Erika Menendez, the homeless New Yorker who pushed a man named Sunando Sen in front of a subway train that same year.
The Most Common Type of American Terrorist Is a White Man With a Weapon and a Grudge The Nation

No stats to show what koranimals do? Oh yeah when they go nuts it's just simple workplace violence. I don't figure when a black murders a white randomly, they are looking at whether they are muslim or not. Gotta love stats that are skewed to protect the religion of piss.

And I searched to see muslim crime against Americans, and all I got was crimes against muslims. Total joke!

So no answer? Then we'll keep the background checks for lack of a better method to keep felons from buying guns from retailers.

 

[M14 Shooter]

, Muslims in the United States are more often the victims of ideological violence than the perpetrators of it.

Have anything to back that statement up, besides your random musings?

According to the latest FBI statistics, there were more than 160 anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2013. Mosques and Islamic centers have been firebombed and vandalized; seven mosques were attacked during Ramadan alone in 2012. Several Muslims, or people thought to be Muslim, have been murdered or viciously attacked. In 2010, a white college student and self-described patriot tried to slash the throat of Bangladeshi cab driver Ahmed Sharif. The white supremacist who slaughtered six people in a Sikh temple in 2012 may have thought he was targeting Muslims. So, apparently, did Erika Menendez, the homeless New Yorker who pushed a man named Sunando Sen in front of a subway train that same year.
The Most Common Type of American Terrorist Is a White Man With a Weapon and a Grudge The Nation

No stats to show what koranimals do? Oh yeah when they go nuts it's just simple workplace violence. I don't figure when a black murders a white randomly, they are looking at whether they are muslim or not. Gotta love stats that are skewed to protect the religion of piss.

And I searched to see muslim crime against Americans, and all I got was crimes against muslims. Total joke!

So no answer? Then we'll keep the background checks for lack of a better method to keep felons from buying guns from retailers...

...even though it infringes on the rights of everyone legally able to buy a gun.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

, Muslims in the United States are more often the victims of ideological violence than the perpetrators of it.

Have anything to back that statement up, besides your random musings?

According to the latest FBI statistics, there were more than 160 anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2013. Mosques and Islamic centers have been firebombed and vandalized; seven mosques were attacked during Ramadan alone in 2012. Several Muslims, or people thought to be Muslim, have been murdered or viciously attacked. In 2010, a white college student and self-described patriot tried to slash the throat of Bangladeshi cab driver Ahmed Sharif. The white supremacist who slaughtered six people in a Sikh temple in 2012 may have thought he was targeting Muslims. So, apparently, did Erika Menendez, the homeless New Yorker who pushed a man named Sunando Sen in front of a subway train that same year.
The Most Common Type of American Terrorist Is a White Man With a Weapon and a Grudge The Nation

No stats to show what koranimals do? Oh yeah when they go nuts it's just simple workplace violence. I don't figure when a black murders a white randomly, they are looking at whether they are muslim or not. Gotta love stats that are skewed to protect the religion of piss.

And I searched to see muslim crime against Americans, and all I got was crimes against muslims. Total joke!

So no answer? Then we'll keep the background checks for lack of a better method to keep felons from buying guns from retailers...

...even though it infringes on the rights of everyone legally able to buy a gun.

It doesn't infringe on my rights at all, unless you think the extra 15 minutes I spend at Cabella's before I get my gun violates my rights.

 

[LOki]

, Muslims in the United States are more often the victims of ideological violence than the perpetrators of it.

Have anything to back that statement up, besides your random musings?

According to the latest FBI statistics, there were more than 160 anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2013. Mosques and Islamic centers have been firebombed and vandalized; seven mosques were attacked during Ramadan alone in 2012. Several Muslims, or people thought to be Muslim, have been murdered or viciously attacked. In 2010, a white college student and self-described patriot tried to slash the throat of Bangladeshi cab driver Ahmed Sharif. The white supremacist who slaughtered six people in a Sikh temple in 2012 may have thought he was targeting Muslims. So, apparently, did Erika Menendez, the homeless New Yorker who pushed a man named Sunando Sen in front of a subway train that same year.
The Most Common Type of American Terrorist Is a White Man With a Weapon and a Grudge The Nation

No stats to show what koranimals do? Oh yeah when they go nuts it's just simple workplace violence. I don't figure when a black murders a white randomly, they are looking at whether they are muslim or not. Gotta love stats that are skewed to protect the religion of piss.

And I searched to see muslim crime against Americans, and all I got was crimes against muslims. Total joke!

So no answer? Then we'll keep the background checks for lack of a better method to keep felons from buying guns from retailers.

No. Felons do not submit to background checks. We'll keep the background checks as a nuisance to everyone else exercising their civil and constitutionally protected rights when buying guns from retailers.

 

[M14 Shooter]

...even though it infringes on the rights of everyone legally able to buy a gun.

It doesn't infringe on my rights at all, unless you think the extra 15 minutes I spend at Cabella's before I get my gun violates my rights.

Well, lessee.

-- Background checks create a precondition to the exercize right not inherent to same.
-- Background checks create a condition of prior restraint in that the state may not presume all who seek to bu a gun are 'guilty' doing so illegally and compel them to 'prove' that they are innocent by passing a background check; to presume a citizen 'might' misuse a civil liberty does not warrant the state's restriction of that right.

And so, yes, background checks DO create an infringement on your rights, regardless of your perception to the contrary.

What do you suppose Madison, et al, would say if you told them that before you bought a gun, you'd have to get permission from the federal government?

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

, Muslims in the United States are more often the victims of ideological violence than the perpetrators of it.

Have anything to back that statement up, besides your random musings?

According to the latest FBI statistics, there were more than 160 anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2013. Mosques and Islamic centers have been firebombed and vandalized; seven mosques were attacked during Ramadan alone in 2012. Several Muslims, or people thought to be Muslim, have been murdered or viciously attacked. In 2010, a white college student and self-described patriot tried to slash the throat of Bangladeshi cab driver Ahmed Sharif. The white supremacist who slaughtered six people in a Sikh temple in 2012 may have thought he was targeting Muslims. So, apparently, did Erika Menendez, the homeless New Yorker who pushed a man named Sunando Sen in front of a subway train that same year.
The Most Common Type of American Terrorist Is a White Man With a Weapon and a Grudge The Nation

No stats to show what koranimals do? Oh yeah when they go nuts it's just simple workplace violence. I don't figure when a black murders a white randomly, they are looking at whether they are muslim or not. Gotta love stats that are skewed to protect the religion of piss.

And I searched to see muslim crime against Americans, and all I got was crimes against muslims. Total joke!

So no answer? Then we'll keep the background checks for lack of a better method to keep felons from buying guns from retailers.

No. Felons do not submit to background checks. We'll keep the background checks as a nuisance to everyone else exercising their civil and constitutionally protected rights when buying guns from retailers.

Already addressed this. Try to keep up. If you wing nuts want to make the case for allowing felons to have guns then vaya con Dios.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

...even though it infringes on the rights of everyone legally able to buy a gun.

It doesn't infringe on my rights at all, unless you think the extra 15 minutes I spend at Cabella's before I get my gun violates my rights.

Well, lessee.

-- Background checks create a precondition to the exercize right not inherent to same.
-- Background checks create a condition of prior restraint in that the state may not presume all who seek to bu a gun are 'guilty' doing so illegally and compel them to 'prove' that they are innocent by passing a background check; to presume a citizen 'might' misuse a civil liberty does not warrant the state's restriction of that right.

And so, yes, background checks DO create an infringement on your rights, regardless of your perception to the contrary.

What do you suppose Madison, et al, would say if you told them that before you bought a gun, you'd have to get permission from the federal government?

Yes, I'm feeling really infringed while I shop for accessories while Cabella's is running a background check. Next time I buy a gun, I'll remember to stress out about that.

 

[M14 Shooter]

...even though it infringes on the rights of everyone legally able to buy a gun.

It doesn't infringe on my rights at all, unless you think the extra 15 minutes I spend at Cabella's before I get my gun violates my rights.

Well, lessee.

-- Background checks create a precondition to the exercize right not inherent to same.
-- Background checks create a condition of prior restraint in that the state may not presume all who seek to bu a gun are 'guilty' doing so illegally and compel them to 'prove' that they are innocent by passing a background check; to presume a citizen 'might' misuse a civil liberty does not warrant the state's restriction of that right.

And so, yes, background checks DO create an infringement on your rights, regardless of your perception to the contrary.

What do you suppose Madison, et al, would say if you told them that before you bought a gun, you'd have to get permission from the federal government?

Yes, I'm feeling really infringed while I shop for accessories while Cabella's is running a background check. Next time I buy a gun, I'll remember to stress out about that.

Your response indicates that you know you do not have a sound counter to the points I made.
As such, my points stand, regardless of your perception to the contrary.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

...even though it infringes on the rights of everyone legally able to buy a gun.

It doesn't infringe on my rights at all, unless you think the extra 15 minutes I spend at Cabella's before I get my gun violates my rights.

Well, lessee.

-- Background checks create a precondition to the exercize right not inherent to same.
-- Background checks create a condition of prior restraint in that the state may not presume all who seek to bu a gun are 'guilty' doing so illegally and compel them to 'prove' that they are innocent by passing a background check; to presume a citizen 'might' misuse a civil liberty does not warrant the state's restriction of that right.

And so, yes, background checks DO create an infringement on your rights, regardless of your perception to the contrary.

What do you suppose Madison, et al, would say if you told them that before you bought a gun, you'd have to get permission from the federal government?

Yes, I'm feeling really infringed while I shop for accessories while Cabella's is running a background check. Next time I buy a gun, I'll remember to stress out about that.

Your response indicates that you know you do not have a sound counter to the points I made.
As such, my points stand, regardless of your perception to the contrary.

No, it indicates I can't bring myself down to the fruitcake level. Most gun rights advocates, including the NRA are ok with measures to ensure only law abiders can buy guns from retailers. You are on the kook fringe who wants rapists and robbers to go into any store and buy a Glock. Good luck getting traction with that agenda.

 

[LOki]

Have anything to back that statement up, besides your random musings?

According to the latest FBI statistics, there were more than 160 anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2013. Mosques and Islamic centers have been firebombed and vandalized; seven mosques were attacked during Ramadan alone in 2012. Several Muslims, or people thought to be Muslim, have been murdered or viciously attacked. In 2010, a white college student and self-described patriot tried to slash the throat of Bangladeshi cab driver Ahmed Sharif. The white supremacist who slaughtered six people in a Sikh temple in 2012 may have thought he was targeting Muslims. So, apparently, did Erika Menendez, the homeless New Yorker who pushed a man named Sunando Sen in front of a subway train that same year.
The Most Common Type of American Terrorist Is a White Man With a Weapon and a Grudge The Nation

No stats to show what koranimals do? Oh yeah when they go nuts it's just simple workplace violence. I don't figure when a black murders a white randomly, they are looking at whether they are muslim or not. Gotta love stats that are skewed to protect the religion of piss.

And I searched to see muslim crime against Americans, and all I got was crimes against muslims. Total joke!

So no answer? Then we'll keep the background checks for lack of a better method to keep felons from buying guns from retailers.

No. Felons do not submit to background checks. We'll keep the background checks as a nuisance to everyone else exercising their civil and constitutionally protected rights when buying guns from retailers.

Already addressed this. Try to keep up.

You addressed nothing. Unless it was your baseless assertion regarding how terribly difficult background checks make it for felons to obtain firearms. I think I'm all caught up with that.

If you wing nuts want to make the case for allowing felons to have guns then vaya con Dios.

No such case is being made.

However, if you're making the case that it's in some way preferable that violent felons steal guns rather than buy them, then consider me an enthusiastic audience... I can't wait to see what that looks like.

 

[M14 Shooter]

...even though it infringes on the rights of everyone legally able to buy a gun.

It doesn't infringe on my rights at all, unless you think the extra 15 minutes I spend at Cabella's before I get my gun violates my rights.

Well, lessee.

-- Background checks create a precondition to the exercize right not inherent to same.
-- Background checks create a condition of prior restraint in that the state may not presume all who seek to bu a gun are 'guilty' doing so illegally and compel them to 'prove' that they are innocent by passing a background check; to presume a citizen 'might' misuse a civil liberty does not warrant the state's restriction of that right.

And so, yes, background checks DO create an infringement on your rights, regardless of your perception to the contrary.

What do you suppose Madison, et al, would say if you told them that before you bought a gun, you'd have to get permission from the federal government?

Yes, I'm feeling really infringed while I shop for accessories while Cabella's is running a background check. Next time I buy a gun, I'll remember to stress out about that.

Your response indicates that you know you do not have a sound counter to the points I made.
As such, my points stand, regardless of your perception to the contrary.

No, it indicates I can't bring myself down to the fruitcake level.

Actually it means you know you cannot counter my argument with anything sound.