Does anyone invest in Bitcoin?

[MarathonMike]

Fueri question please: What is your opinion on the NVO ICO?

 

[Fueri]

Fueri question please: What is your opinion on the NVO ICO?

I'm cautious with ICO's in general, although I've made good money on them.

I think a lot of folks are seeing this ICO model raising millions on very little other than a website and a whitepaper and cranking them out to raise a ton of money without actually having much of a product, so they can be dicey and I'm worried that this space is being flooded by opportunists rather than people developing serious applications that actually merit anywhere near the money I see being poured into them.

my strategy has been to buy then get back my original investment plus a target profit of 50% or so which, over the span of a few months is pretty good, obviously. If I think the ICO has long-term legs and between investment and the opening of trading on their token they are completing their milestones and they look like they're on track I'll leave some in, if any of that doesn't look right I'll cash out totally back to bitcoin.

In a general sense I've used them to grow my bitcoin/ethereum numbers, but haven't left a lot in them for the long term.

I have never lost money on one of these, although in a general sense I think these ico's are a gamble, as their valuations post ico make no sense from a balance sheet perspective and will have to crash to earth at some point.

see this bloomberg article on these.

These Digital Tokens Are Making Bitcoin's Huge Rally Look Tame


In terms of NVO specifically I don't know any more than what I've read in the white paper. I like the idea of a decentralized exchange and think it fits the space well. What I don't like is the team, which seems thin at 2 guys without much of a track record.

I may buy a small amount ~.25btc worth, which I would put through my typical regimen of pulling out my original investment back to btc with some profit as soon as trading opens on them on one of the exchanges, and keeping a close eye on what they'e actually doing rather than what they promise to be doing.


you can see other ICO offerings here:

Token Investor | Crypto Coins, Tokens, and Validator Keys

 

[MarathonMike]

Fueri question please: What is your opinion on the NVO ICO?

I'm cautious with ICO's in general, although I've made good money on them.

I think a lot of folks are seeing this ICO model raising millions on very little other than a website and a whitepaper and cranking them out to raise a ton of money without actually having much of a product, so they can be dicey and I'm worried that this space is being flooded by opportunists rather than people developing serious applications that actually merit anywhere near the money I see being poured into them.

my strategy has been to buy then get back my original investment plus a target profit of 50% or so which, over the span of a few months is pretty good, obviously. If I think the ICO has long-term legs and between investment and the opening of trading on their token they are completing their milestones and they look like they're on track I'll leave some in, if any of that doesn't look right I'll cash out totally back to bitcoin.

In a general sense I've used them to grow my bitcoin/ethereum numbers, but haven't left a lot in them for the long term.

I have never lost money on one of these, although in a general sense I think these ico's are a gamble, as their valuations post ico make no sense from a balance sheet perspective and will have to crash to earth at some point.

see this bloomberg article on these.

These Digital Tokens Are Making Bitcoin's Huge Rally Look Tame


In terms of NVO specifically I don't know any more than what I've read in the white paper. I like the idea of a decentralized exchange and think it fits the space well. What I don't like is the team, which seems thin at 2 guys without much of a track record.

I may buy a small amount ~.25btc worth, which I would put through my typical regimen of pulling out my original investment back to btc with some profit as soon as trading opens on them on one of the exchanges, and keeping a close eye on what they'e actually doing rather than what they promise to be doing.


you can see other ICO offerings here:

Token Investor | Crypto Coins, Tokens, and Validator Keys

Great info thanks. That was my sense in reading about NVO seeming like a good opportunity for a short term gain but a real long shot for anything beyond that.

 

[MarathonMike]

Fueri question please: What is your opinion on the NVO ICO?

I'm cautious with ICO's in general, although I've made good money on them.

I think a lot of folks are seeing this ICO model raising millions on very little other than a website and a whitepaper and cranking them out to raise a ton of money without actually having much of a product, so they can be dicey and I'm worried that this space is being flooded by opportunists rather than people developing serious applications that actually merit anywhere near the money I see being poured into them.

my strategy has been to buy then get back my original investment plus a target profit of 50% or so which, over the span of a few months is pretty good, obviously. If I think the ICO has long-term legs and between investment and the opening of trading on their token they are completing their milestones and they look like they're on track I'll leave some in, if any of that doesn't look right I'll cash out totally back to bitcoin.

In a general sense I've used them to grow my bitcoin/ethereum numbers, but haven't left a lot in them for the long term.

I have never lost money on one of these, although in a general sense I think these ico's are a gamble, as their valuations post ico make no sense from a balance sheet perspective and will have to crash to earth at some point.

see this bloomberg article on these.

These Digital Tokens Are Making Bitcoin's Huge Rally Look Tame


In terms of NVO specifically I don't know any more than what I've read in the white paper. I like the idea of a decentralized exchange and think it fits the space well. What I don't like is the team, which seems thin at 2 guys without much of a track record.

I may buy a small amount ~.25btc worth, which I would put through my typical regimen of pulling out my original investment back to btc with some profit as soon as trading opens on them on one of the exchanges, and keeping a close eye on what they'e actually doing rather than what they promise to be doing.


you can see other ICO offerings here:

Token Investor | Crypto Coins, Tokens, and Validator Keys

Took my first profit in ETH today. I don't like the volume action. I may have jumped off a rocket ship, (wouldn't be the first time) but like the great man once said, nobody ever went broke making money on a trade.

 

[Fueri]

Fueri question please: What is your opinion on the NVO ICO?

I'm cautious with ICO's in general, although I've made good money on them.

I think a lot of folks are seeing this ICO model raising millions on very little other than a website and a whitepaper and cranking them out to raise a ton of money without actually having much of a product, so they can be dicey and I'm worried that this space is being flooded by opportunists rather than people developing serious applications that actually merit anywhere near the money I see being poured into them.

my strategy has been to buy then get back my original investment plus a target profit of 50% or so which, over the span of a few months is pretty good, obviously. If I think the ICO has long-term legs and between investment and the opening of trading on their token they are completing their milestones and they look like they're on track I'll leave some in, if any of that doesn't look right I'll cash out totally back to bitcoin.

In a general sense I've used them to grow my bitcoin/ethereum numbers, but haven't left a lot in them for the long term.

I have never lost money on one of these, although in a general sense I think these ico's are a gamble, as their valuations post ico make no sense from a balance sheet perspective and will have to crash to earth at some point.

see this bloomberg article on these.

These Digital Tokens Are Making Bitcoin's Huge Rally Look Tame


In terms of NVO specifically I don't know any more than what I've read in the white paper. I like the idea of a decentralized exchange and think it fits the space well. What I don't like is the team, which seems thin at 2 guys without much of a track record.

I may buy a small amount ~.25btc worth, which I would put through my typical regimen of pulling out my original investment back to btc with some profit as soon as trading opens on them on one of the exchanges, and keeping a close eye on what they'e actually doing rather than what they promise to be doing.


you can see other ICO offerings here:

Token Investor | Crypto Coins, Tokens, and Validator Keys

Took my first profit in ETH today. I don't like the volume action. I may have jumped off a rocket ship, (wouldn't be the first time) but like the great man once said, nobody ever went broke making money on a trade.

I don't blame you. I'm still in and actually bought some yesterday when it tanked. I think bitcoin is likely to fall here again over the next couple of months as there's a hard fork coming august 1 (I think) and that normally spells trouble for the pricing, at least temporarily. I'll be buying then if that does occur, as it's projected to sail up to the 4000 level by the end of next year.

It did fall hard yesterday, but it was expected, and came back pretty well. bumping against that 360 level without successfully breaking it today.

it settled right back on the trend line after correcting, basically cutting off a price bubble, so I'm not particularly worried about it. after an episode like yesterday it will take the market a few days to shake things out, and i wouldn't be surprised if it goes sideways for a while or even pulls back into the 300 region. then again, this is crypto, so a big news event or something that rings the bell to turn the bulls loose could drive it up 50-100 in a day. happens all the time.

I am glad you made some money, definitely. literally none of my close friends listened to me on this when it was sitting at 12 and the ethereum alliance formed up and I was telling them to load up. not a single one so you are literally the only person I know of personally besides myself that actually went out and made some money on this. lol

 

[Toro]

Nobody "invests" in Bitcoin.

 

[Fueri]

Nobody "invests" in Bitcoin.

It has a 40 billion+ market cap.

A lot of people invest in bitcoin

 

[percysunshine]

Invest in land.

Bitcoin can evaporate if someone turns off the electricity.

 

[Fueri]

This guy does

Billionaire says he has 10% of his money in Bitcoin, Ether and Blockchain tech


Investing Guide
Billionaire says he has 10% of his money in Bitcoin and Ether

"Ten percent of my net worth is in this space," Novogratz said at a forum held at the Harvard Business School Club of New York Wednesday. He declined to say exactly how wealthy he is, but he's a former hedge fund manager at Fortress Investment Group and a Goldman Sachs partner who made the Forbes billionaire list in 2008.


It's the "best investment of my life," Novogratz said.

 

[MarathonMike]

Fueri I read that Amazon was considering accepting BC for payment but did not adopt it. Do you think it is feasible that Amazon could make their own coin? They seem to be getting into just about everything so it would seem logical they would want to have their own currency. What do you think, would they do it? If so how might that affect BC and ETH?

 

[Fueri]

Fueri I read that Amazon was considering accepting BC for payment but did not adopt it. Do you think it is feasible that Amazon could make their own coin? They seem to be getting into just about everything so it would seem logical they would want to have their own currency. What do you think, would they do it? If so how might that affect BC and ETH?

They could, anyone could I suppose.

It would have to have an advantage of some kind over btc and/or eth or I doubt it would impact either very much. Apple's apple pay, for instance, has had little, if any, impact. When that came out wonks started delivering last rites on bitcoin and cryptos in general, declaring the big dogs were taking over. That obviously didn't happen.

Bitcoin has first mover status as a currency. Ethereum has first mover status in smart contracts and a growing consortium of global conglomerates to move it that dwarfs even amazon.

That said, it would likely take off price wise, at least for a while and, who knows, there's always the possibility for a better mousetrap, but it actually has to be a better mousetrap in practice, imo, not just a mousetrap with an Amazon, or whoever's, logo stamped on it.

This, imo, is why ethereum is taking off. It is fundamentally different from bitcoin and serves a need bitcoin does not in the execution of smart contracts rather than simply being a transfer/store of value.

We see that also with some of the others that have done well. They do things others don't and carve out a niche. Dash advertises rapid processing speed, Zcash and Monero advertise anonymity and/or untraceability, etc.

 

[MarathonMike]

Fueri, what is your take on the trading issues at Coinbase? I read that a multi-million dollar sale triggered a bunch of stop loss orders that led to the halt in trading and an enormous flash drop and then rebound in the price of ETH. It seems like they will have to put some sort of order limit until the market cap grows enough to withstand the whales.

 

[Fueri]

Fueri, what is your take on the trading issues at Coinbase? I read that a multi-million dollar sale triggered a bunch of stop loss orders that led to the halt in trading and an enormous flash drop and then rebound in the price of ETH. It seems like they will have to put some sort of order limit until the market cap grows enough to withstand the whales.

Yeah, I saw that.

This is one of three things, IMO, although Coinbase/GDAX says it is investigating and will issue a statement at some point. Of course, I'm speculating, as I don't really know what happened any more than anyone else.

1. A whale cashed out. Apparently an order for tens of millions was put in the order book on the GDAX exchange. It must have been a market order rather than a limit order (I am assuming here), as it ate the entire order book down to pennies/ETH and dragged the entire market average across all exchanges down with it.

2. An ICO took the ETH paid into their fund and dumped it. We've seen this before with ICO"s, as they suck up tens of millions and then dump a ton back into the market to diversify risk for themselves. Again, it was likely a market order and would have had the same effect as a whale cashing out.

3. This was a bot generated, or some other means of outright manipulation. Similar to what we saw in 2010 with the greater market flash crash, someone has figured out how to manipulate other bots into cratering the market, or to manipulate price in some way.

1 and 2, or some variation whereby someone just decided to dump huge volume, I could care less about. It's typical market action and if someone wants to be dumb enough to dump that kind of volume at less than actual market value (apparently it ate the order book @GDAX down to 0.10/ETH or something, rather than the then-market price of 300+) that's their business. The market will, and already has, shaken that off. I am somewhat skeptical that this was the case, however, as someone with 30+ Million in any asset knows better than to dump it for far, far less than it's worth.

3, on the other hand, presents a problem, as if we start seeing this sort of manipulation it will crash prices across the crypto space. The exchanges will have to address that or it will kill margin trading, and prices with it. A trader would have to be utterly insane to get into a leveraged position knowing that someone with enough cash and a malicious bot could wipe him out entirely at any point. I am sure that this is having an effect on the market now actually. I don't trade on GDAX,, but I've stopped margin trading on the heels of this and do not intend to re-open any sort of positions until we hear from the markets on this issue, and what they plan to do about it.

So, in a nutshell, I think it's damping prices in the short term, as I highly doubt I'm the only one that's pulled their chips off the table. The exchanges will have to look into this and implement something to prevent bot manipulation from occurring or trading on these exchanges on any sort of margin is a fool's game.



here's a comment on Reddit, from someone claiming to be a GDAX margin trader on what happened and his take on it.

Open letter from someone who got wiped today (and why I still <3 GDAX) • r/ethtrader

 

[MarathonMike]

Confidence is everything. Changes have to be made and soon to these crypto exchanges. I didn't realize ETH's price actually crashed to 10 CENTS, albeit very briefly and then shot back up to over 300 dollars. The reddit post was very informative. That is a classic example of a very smart guy outsmarting himself. Circuit breakers may have to be implemented just like they exist on the stock exchanges. Perhaps even limiting the maximum order amount so that a big boy can't cannonball all the water out of the pool. If you did that, even if he/she split up the mega order into a bunch of smaller ones that would give traders time to react.

 

[Fueri]

Confidence is everything. Changes have to be made and soon to these crypto exchanges. I didn't realize ETH's price actually crashed to 10 CENTS, albeit very briefly and then shot back up to over 300 dollars. The reddit post was very informative. That is a classic example of a very smart guy outsmarting himself. Circuit breakers may have to be implemented just like they exist on the stock exchanges. Perhaps even limiting the maximum order amount so that a big boy can't cannonball all the water out of the pool. If you did that, even if he/she split up the mega order into a bunch of smaller ones that would give traders time to react.

yes, it hit .10 on that one exchange. that dragged down the overall aggregate average, bots and panic selling kicked in and the average price hit a low of ~300 before rebounding.

I agree, the exchanges will have to do something about this.

One event is bad, but the market rebounded. If it happens again, folks will dump, myself included, as the price is headed for the basement if that sort of thing becomes a constant imminent threat to market action at any given time.

 

[Fueri]

The exchange is apparently going to reimburse some traders

ETH-USD Trading Update #2 – The GDAX Blog

"We will establish a process to credit customer accounts which experienced a margin call or stop loss order executed on the GDAX ETH-USD order book as a direct result of the rapid price movement at 12.30pm PT on June 21, 2017. This process will allow affected customers to restore the value of their ETH-USD account to the equivalent value of their ETH-USD account at the moment prior to the rapid price movement. To clarify:

• For customers who had buy orders filled — we are honoring all executed orders and no trades will be reversed.
• For affected customers who had margin calls or stop loss orders executed — we are crediting you using company funds."

 

[MarathonMike]

Fueri, have you thought about what a re-entry point might be? Will it be price based or are you going to wait until definitive measures are in place to safeguard a more orderly market? In the posted write up I saw yesterday about the flash crash, the author stated another flash crash "will happen again". Not exactly the warm fuzzy!
For me, there is enough upside potential to start buying back in if ETH drops to the $250 level.

 

[Fueri]

Fueri, have you thought about what a re-entry point might be? Will it be price based or are you going to wait until definitive measures are in place to safeguard a more orderly market? In the posted write up I saw yesterday about the flash crash, the author stated another flash crash "will happen again". Not exactly the warm fuzzy!
For me, there is enough upside potential to start buying back in if ETH drops to the $250 level.

Well, in terms of margin trading I won't do anything until the exchanges figure this out.

In terms of a buy in point, the whole crypto market is in a correction.

If it slips below 300 on the daily close its likely to fall further.

support levels are:

287
266
247
231

Without advising one way or another, I've seen some analysts calling for a further fall to 80, while others don't expect it to fall much further than the above, if that far.

I'm not buying personally either way, as ive got a ton already, but what I'm looking for is some solid progress in terms of actual market usage, such as broader adoption of the oil trading platform piloted by ING, or other big news that highlights the utility rather than the promise of utility.

We'll see it, I think, but in terms of when that could be a year or two or three to move large organizations to a new methodology.

That means, to me, that the price action is primarily speculative at this point, so investors need to see some food on their plate before the big money comes back to drive it past 400 again.

 

[BuckToothMoron]

I haven't looked into it, but I just saw that bitcoins are now worth more than an ounce of gold. If anyone owns them or understands how this "currency" works, please explain.

It's really fascinating, I'm no expert by any means, but essential it is a currency that is produced through computers running a software program. The software is written such that the more bitcoins produced or "mined" the longer it takes and more expensive it becomes to mine a bitcoin. It is similar to mining gold in that gold was initially found laying on the earth's surface, but now most is found far underground. There is a predetermined quantity of bitcoins that can ever be mined, 21 million, or at least that was the original idea. There has been recent noise to split bitcoins which really disrupts the valuation as a store of value.

Here is a great YouTube video which might help you understand the pitfalls of "investing" in bitcoin.

 

[Mac1958]

Bitcoin is a weird mix of currency and commodity.

Some people have made a lot of money, but no thanks.
.