Documenting the crime of torture in the Palestinian Authority’s Territories

[P F Tinmore]

What this report shows with such stark clarity is that the Western discourse of liberal good governance and rights, which sounds very nice because they relate to real human aspirations, is a façade behind which a police state has emerged. A security-led project of this nature – with its economic aspect as well as its ‘law enforcement’ dimension – has little relation to true institution or state-building. It is no accident that parliamentary oversight, accountability and systems of justice have atrophied, whilst massive Western assistance has been directed to so-called ‘security-service reform’.
Alastair Crooke
Former adviser to EU Foreign Policy Chief, Javier Solana, and director of Conflicts Forum

http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk...in-the-palestinian-authoritys-territories.pdf

 

[Ropey]

The Hamas kill and torture their own people. That's a pretty low order.

They took their Fatah brothers in Gaza and threw them off roofs, shot them and still can not work together.

That's their problem, not Israels.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAy0ZiMEEmw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAy0ZiMEEmw[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNv-WCFK-E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNv-WCFK-E[/ame]

Yes, Israeli sites. Hamas doesn't let much of this out. We get it out though.

Others too.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPT2OUT2tFI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPT2OUT2tFI[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ahhh, you didn't look at the report.

 

[Ropey]

Hamas

From its inception in 2002, the Initiative deeply divided the organization.[8] As stated before, members of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing, committed the Passover Massacre on same day as the peace Initiative's adoption.[3] At that time, Hamas rejected not only peace with Israel but even negotiations with it.[18] The official administration of Hamas never recognized the Initiative, which alienated it from members of the Arab League, especially Jordan and Egypt.[47] One of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' conditions of forming a national coalition government with Hamas after the 2006 election was that Hamas had to recognize the Initiative, but he was unsuccessful.[47]

Hamas' spokesman Ismail Abu Shanab told The San Francisco Chronicle in April 2002 that the organization would accept it, saying "That would be satisfactory for all Palestinian military groups to stop and build our state, to be busy in our own affairs, and have good neighborhood with Israelis."[48] The newspaper reporters who interviewed Shanab questioned whether or not he truly spoke for the administration and could not corroborate his story.[48] Hamas' foreign minister Mahmoud al-Zahar said in June 2006 that the organization rejects the initiative.[8] Prime Minister Ismail Haneya said on October 2006 that the "problem with the Arab peace initiative is that it includes recognition of the state of Israel, the thing that the Palestinian government rejects" and dismissed it.[49] That month, Mahmoud al-Zahar declared unequivocally: "Hamas will never change its position regardless of the pressure's intensity" and "We will never recognize the Arab initiative."[50]

After the revival of the initiative in March 2007, Hamas continued a policy of ambiguity with many officials giving negative responses while some gave neutral or hopeful responses.[26] Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhum told Haaretz that "the issue is not a 'yes' or 'no' by Hamas regarding the initiative. We respect the Arab efforts to attain Palestinian rights and we will act within the Arab consensus. Nonetheless, the Zionist enemy continues to reject the initiative and we will not determine our position in reference to it before it has been accepted."[26] Haaretz sources in Palestine state that Hamas wanted to oppose the initiative outright but did not do so because it did not want to break with the Saudi Arabian government.[26] Hamas figure Khaled Meshaal ridiculed the PLO pro-initiative ad campaign, saying “The rights of Palestinians can be achieved only through resistance, not advertisements”.[17]

Time stated in January 2009 that "In the Arab world, only Hamas and Hizballah, with the backing of Tehran, reject the Arab peace initiative." Left-wing Israeli commentator and former Minister of Justice Yossi Beilin also said in January 2009 that "Hamas considers its adherence to the three "nos" of Khartoum from 1967, which the entire Arab world abandoned in adopting the Arab peace initiative, to be its primary distinctive feature Fateh. Even a prolonged battering by the IDF will not bring Hamas to make this change." The Khaleej Times editorialized in December 2008 that "The Arab peace plan remains the best and most pragmatic solution to Palestine-Israel conflict.... Even though Hamas and Islamic Jihad are not prepared to accept anything short of the entire Palestine occupied in 1940s, if the plan is accepted by Israel and US, the Arabs could possibly persuade Islamists to embrace it too."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Fact Sheet
#71: Palestinians Declare Three Noes to Peace
(August 11, 2009)

Echoing the Arab rejection of peace with Israel expressed at Khartoum almost exactly 42 years ago (“no peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel”), the Palestinians declared at the Fatah conference in Bethlehem in August 2009 three noes: no negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel as a Jewish state and no end to the armed struggle against Israel.

In fact, in addition to the three noes to peace, the Palestinians had more than a dozen other demands, including Israeli acceptance of the “right of return” of Palestinian refugees, the release of all Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails, the freezing of all settlement construction and the lifting of the Gaza blockade. They also vowed to continue the struggle against Israel “until Jerusalem returns to the Palestinians void of settlers and settlements. ”

These recalcitrant positions come after Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) previous statements that he will not negotiate with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and expects President Obama to bring about Netanyahu’s downfall.

Click

This is happening right now. Hamas is clear, when they are not speaking. Otherwise, they are clear when they choose who and how to speak their case.

But the writing is clear.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"If we are building a police state -- what are we actually doing here?" So asked a European diplomat responding to allegations of torture by the Palestinian security forces. The diplomat might well ask. A police state is not a state. It is a form of larceny: of people's rights, aspirations and sacrifices, for the personal benefit of an élite. This is not what the world meant when it called for statehood. But a police state is what is being assiduously constructed in Palestine, disguised as state-building and good governance. Under this guise, its intent is to facilitate the authoritarianism which creates sufficient popular dependency -- and fear -- to strangle any opposition.

The transition from the lofty aspiration of statehood to a scheme intended to usher West Bank Palestinians into a new alleviated containment -- a new form of remotely-managed occupation -- is not some unfortunate error. The roots of this manipulation of the Palestinian aspiration into its opposite -- cynically dressed up and sold as statehood -- were present from the outset. Professor Yezid Sayyigh has shown how U.S. and EU rhetoric "promoting democratic development and the rule of law is pious at best, at worst disingenuous". Both America and Europe bear responsibilities for this betrayal.


The seed of this deception which was to grow into a new police state in the region was the US and European acquiescence to Israel's self-definition of its own security needs -- and by extension, Israel's definition of the requirements for Palestinian security collaboration. This Faustian pact, which prioritized Israel's security-led criteria as the boundaries for negotiations -- above any principles of justice -- set the scene for the inevitable inflation of Israeli demands of security collusion by the Palestinian leadership -- demands on which America's ‘war on terrorism' poured fuel.

Building a police state in Palestine | The Middle East Channel

 

[Ropey]

The following are excerpts from an interview with Mus'ab Hassan Yousuf, the son of Sheik Hassan Yousuf, Hamas leader in the West Bank. Yousuf Jr. converted to Christianity, and recently revealed that he had collaborated with Israel. The interview aired on BBC Arabic on March 12, 2010.

I have said, and I continue to say, that my problem is not with Hamas or with the Muslims. My problem is with the God of Islam and with the Prophet of Islam. With regard to... There were continuous conflicts, which drove me to think about which direction I would like my life to go. Of course, the torture carried out by Hamas on its people in prison, their stupidity, and their political inadequacy drove me to speak out.

What I am saying is that Islam is Islam, and the Koran is the Koran. The Koran suffers from a split personality, and the God of Islam suffers from a split personality. All the Muslims who follow the God of Islam interpret Islam as they like, but this does not negate the terroristic and murderous character of Islam, which incites people, through the Koran, to kill people and blow themselves up.

Go to Surat Al-Tawba, verses 5 and 29. The problem is that Muslims do not understand their own religion. I call upon the Muslims to read their Koran and understand it, before they say that Islam is a religion of peace and compassion. The God of Islam calls to kill any non-Muslim. The God of Islam calls to kill me today There are several unreliable views of several Islamic thinkers, but their authority does not supersede that of the God of Islam, who said: "Slay the People of the Book wherever you find them." Allah said: "Slay the polytheists wherever you find them." Read the surah.

If you want to argue with me – let's argue. Is Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, the supreme role model for the Muslims?

Did Muhammad kill the Jews of Khaybar, or didn't he? You tell me. Why distort the facts? The Muslims must be honest with themselves and with the rest of the world. Muhammad – the supreme role model for the Muslims – killed the Jews of Khaybar, of Qureiza, and of Nadhir. He killed their children and captured their women. This is the supreme role model for the Muslims.

Israel has been acting with violence, and killed innocent people. It killed people with or without a reason, but mistakes may happen. Every country on the face of the earth makes mistakes, not only Israel. The difference between Israel and Hamas is that yes, Killing is a mistake – regardless of who the killer is – but Hamas has no principles, no laws, and no limits, whereas Israel is bound by law and constitution. If there is a racist Israeli, he will stand trial. Give me one example of a Hamas official who stood trial.

In my view, if Islam were implemented properly, this would spell the destruction of the Arab and Muslim world – the whole world, in fact – because every Muslim would become a Bin Laden.

MEMRI Mobile - - Mus'ab Hassan Yousuf, Son of Hamas Leader in the West Bank: The God of Islam Suffers from Split Personality; Muhammad - a False Prophet

 

[Ropey]

Ahhh, you didn't look at the report.

I never read any of your sources that you post PF.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvBf-Vh4pNg"]Hamas Terrorists in UN School [/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHNk6eBw3ME"][/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCVr7MBhgj0"]We Go and Get It[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNv-ro4XMxI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNv-ro4XMxI[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUQjk1YUq94"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUQjk1YUq94[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ahhh, you didn't look at the report.

I never read any of your sources that you post PF.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvBf-Vh4pNg"]Hamas Terrorists in UN School [/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHNk6eBw3ME"][/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCVr7MBhgj0"]We Go and Get It[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNv-ro4XMxI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNv-ro4XMxI[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUQjk1YUq94"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUQjk1YUq94[/ame]

Ignorant by choice.

Interesting concept.

 

[Ropey]

Ignorant by choice.

You are a troll. When I discuss with you it is a one sided discussion with a troll.

That you don't see this is the true mark of your inability to see reality.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ignorant by choice.

You are a troll. When I discuss with you it is a one sided discussion with a troll.

That you don't see this is the true mark of your inability to see reality.

The thread is about the PA in the West Bank and you come back with propaganda about Hamas.

What kind of discussion is that? It would help if you could stay on topic.

 

[Ropey]

Then don't ask me questions that go off of track. You asked me and then complain about me going off of your track.

And anyway. Palestinians are Palestinians. Are they not? No wonder they can't get together without killing each other when even ones such as you attempt to keep them apart.

They can't stop murdering each other.

Topic? Yeah, right. Like they can stop killing each other to work towards peace with others?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zLDKqoBnnA"]Fatah vs Hamas debate[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Then don't ask me questions that go off of track. You asked me and then complain about me going off of your track.

And anyway. Palestinians are Palestinians. Are they not? No wonder they can't get together without killing each other when even ones such as you attempt to keep them apart.

They can't stop murdering each other.

Topic? Yeah, right. Like they can stop killing each other to work towards peace with others?

Fatah vs Hamas debate

Good video, thanks.

One of the first points is the reconciliation agreement made with the help of Egypt. Fatah signed it but Hamas did not. There were a list of items on this agreement. When Egypt was compiling this list the US went to Egypt and had them change what they had already agreed upon. The major change is that the same people Hamas ran out of Gaza in 2007 were to return. These are the people in the OP in this thread. Of course this is not acceptable to Hamas and I agree completely. These people have no place in Gaza or the West Bank.

It would be interesting to discuss some of the other issues mentioned.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"It is a slaughter house," "even the Gestapo didn't do this;" I spent many years in Israeli jails, and never experienced some thing like that." These are some of the comments and observations made by people who have just been released from Palestinian Authority (PA) lockups and detention centers.

The PA said it formally and completely stopped physical torture in its numerous detention centers as of October 2000, especially following protests by the donor countries which complained that their tax-payers' money was being used to torture suspected political opponents in the West Bank.

However, recent reports and testimonies gathered by human rights organizations and journalists have shown that intensive, even life-threatening torture is still being widely practiced by PA security authorities with or without the knowledge of the political authorities.

In some instances, like at the Jericho prison, which has been described as most notorious in the application of torture, some prisoners and detainees are tortured 17 hours per day.

Palestinians complain of widespread torture in PA detention centers

 

[P F Tinmore]

"There are no Fatah supporters we have arrested for political affiliation," Hammad said in reponse to accusations that Hamas was holding Fatah leaders.

The minister said prisons were opened to the Palestinian Legislative Council's Fatah representative Ashraf Jumaa, who claimed the interior ministry was holding Fatah affiliates who went on hunger strike. He sat with all prisoners and verified that the accusations have no ties to reality, the Minister of Interior said.

Gaza Interior Ministry: Phenomenon of Israeli agents in Gaza is fading

 

[Ropey]

I can't read hidden posts, but I received a rep from PF over the video I posted. I know what it was. I watched it in its entirety.

That is what real debates and discussion is about.

Two way with give.

Here PF?

Not so much...

 

[P F Tinmore]

GAZA, (PIC)-- Islamic Jihad movement lashed out at the Fatah-controlled PA in Ramallah for bullying its cadres and supporters in what it described as a rampant security mess in the West Bank.

Jihad said in a press release on Saturday that the PA security apparatuses were adamant on attacking its leaders and cadres.

It mentioned the assault on Sheikh Khader Habib, one of its leaders in Qabatiya, south of Jenin, twice within the past 24 hours.

Sheikh Khader was hospitalized after the second beating on Saturday in Qabatiya.

Islamic Jihad lashes out at PA in Ramallah

 

[P F Tinmore]

The security apparati being created, in tandem with a second-generation of monopolies and concentrations of economic power, have little to no domestic transparency or accountability. Effectively, final control rests with Israel, the CIA and other external intelligence services. Western diplomats and officials have described the relationship between the CIA and the two Palestinian security bodies responsible for most of the torture of Hamas supporters as being "so close that the American agency appears to be supervising the Palestinians' work". In the wake of the Hamas 2006 election victory, funding for these security services increased, and continued to be off-balance sheet: it was supplied by western donors and their regional allies, covertly.

Building a police state in Palestine | The Middle East Channel