Doctor religious exemption hypothetical.

[Rat in the Hat]

I think nurses can transfuse, but only on a doctor's orders.

Does the doctor have to be present to give orders, or could the nurse take orders over the phone from a doctor?

good question. I hope I don't have to find out first hand!

As do I. But it could be a solution if the situation arises.

 

[WorldWatcher]

You can't refuse to hire someone due to religious belief.

This is a peripheral problem that this issue causes.

Actually you can if those beliefs prevent the individual from performing the essential duties of the job.

A pig farmer would not be required to hire a Muslim that refuses to work with pigs.


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[whitehall]

The scenario is outrageous and offensive to the good people in the medical profession. I guess we will be seeing a lot of bigoted anti-religious since we have a Mormon running for president.

 

[WorldWatcher]

That physician shouldn't even be hired or placed as lead.

I understand the who religious exemption thing. But when you go to a doctor's office or hospital, you expect to be treated no matter what, or at least survive long enough so you don't die.

Simple answer, my brain is not yet fully functional.

You can't refuse to hire someone due to religious belief.

This is a peripheral problem that this issue causes.

Title VII states: "Employers must reasonably accommodate employees’ sincerely held religious practices unless doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer."

Having to have a second ER Doctor on site would be an undue hardship on the employer.


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[Missourian]

The paramedic who infused the saline solution would transfuse the blood...problem solved.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I think nurses can transfuse, but only on a doctor's orders.

Does the doctor have to be present to give orders, or could the nurse take orders over the phone from a doctor?

Telephone orders can be given.

And the Doctor on the other end of the phone then assumes malpractice responsibility for ordering a treatment of patient that (s)he hasn't examined. I doubt many Doctors will be willing to assume that responsibility.



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[WorldWatcher]

The paramedic who infused the saline solution would transfuse the blood...problem solved.

It's not about who would physically do the transfusion, it's about who orders it. Even if paramedics could do a transfusion, they would still only be able to do it under a Doctor's orders. Which is the basis of the hypothetical, the Doctor wouldn't order it.



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[geauxtohell]

Since everyone seems obsessed with healthcare issues related to sex, let's try another one and let the pro and con sides argue their points:

The setting is an ER in a small town. A trauma comes in. The patient is in hypovolemic shock and has already gotten a 2 liter bolus of saline in the field but still has a weak pulse and unstable vitals/decreasing blood pressure.

The ER has 4 bags of type O blood ready to transfuse when the patient arrives.

However, the physician covering the ER that night recently converted to be a Jehovah's Witness and refuses to transfer because he believes it violates his religious beliefs. The patient expires before another physician can be tracked down.

Did he have a right to refuse the transfusion.

No.

Why not?

 

[Firehorse]

The doctor is in the wrong. He should do transfusion then retire form practicing medicine. He did take the oath to treat patents, that he has resently converted cannot be an excuse for him to allow a patent to die, not even his God would look kindly on breaking ones oath and costing a life

 

[Rat in the Hat]

The paramedic who infused the saline solution would transfuse the blood...problem solved.

It's not about who would physically do the transfusion, it's about who orders it. Even if paramedics could do a transfusion, they would still only be able to do it under a Doctor's orders. Which is the basis of the hypothetical, the Doctor wouldn't order it.



>>>>

In the hypothetical, the paramedic infused saline in the field. Did he do that on his own, or did he get doctor's orders? If he got orders, how did he get them?

 

[geauxtohell]

I think nurses can transfuse, but only on a doctor's orders.

Does the doctor have to be present to give orders, or could the nurse take orders over the phone from a doctor?

Telephone orders can be given.

And while the head nurse is frantically trying to raise another doctor in this small town, the patient is actively dying.

We are talking about a matter of minutes here.

 

[geauxtohell]

The paramedic who infused the saline solution would transfuse the blood...problem solved.

Not without a doctor's orders, he isn't.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

Does the doctor have to be present to give orders, or could the nurse take orders over the phone from a doctor?

Telephone orders can be given.

And while the head nurse is frantically trying to raise another doctor in this small town, the patient is actively dying.

You mean this hypothetical hospital wouldn't have an on-call doctor?

What would happen if they had an accident with multiple victims? Would the single ER doctor choose who gets to live?

 

[geauxtohell]

The paramedic who infused the saline solution would transfuse the blood...problem solved.

It's not about who would physically do the transfusion, it's about who orders it. Even if paramedics could do a transfusion, they would still only be able to do it under a Doctor's orders. Which is the basis of the hypothetical, the Doctor wouldn't order it.



>>>>

In the hypothetical, the paramedic infused saline in the field. Did he do that on his own, or did he get doctor's orders? If he got orders, how did he get them?

In the field, the orders are standing and under the director of EMS. In the ER the patient becomes the domain of the attending physician.

 

[geauxtohell]

The scenario is outrageous and offensive to the good people in the medical profession. I guess we will be seeing a lot of bigoted anti-religious since we have a Mormon running for president.

Another dunderhead who can't answer the question and doesn't even have the balls to try.

 

[geauxtohell]

Telephone orders can be given.

And while the head nurse is frantically trying to raise another doctor in this small town, the patient is actively dying.

You mean this hypothetical hospital wouldn't have an on-call doctor?

What would happen if they had an accident with multiple victims? Would the single ER doctor choose who gets to live?

Why do they need an on call doctor when they have an attending one?

To the second, they don't get much trauma. It's a small town.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The paramedic who infused the saline solution would transfuse the blood...problem solved.

It's not about who would physically do the transfusion, it's about who orders it. Even if paramedics could do a transfusion, they would still only be able to do it under a Doctor's orders. Which is the basis of the hypothetical, the Doctor wouldn't order it.



>>>>

In the hypothetical, the paramedic infused saline in the field. Did he do that on his own, or did he get doctor's orders? If he got orders, how did he get them?

Different type of care. EMT's in the field are providing emergency care to stabilize for transport to the hospital.

EMT's in the field don't carry an array of blood types to do transfusions, they transport to the hospital for that and treatment responsibility is turned over to the ER Doctor.



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[Rat in the Hat]

And while the head nurse is frantically trying to raise another doctor in this small town, the patient is actively dying.

You mean this hypothetical hospital wouldn't have an on-call doctor?

What would happen if they had an accident with multiple victims? Would the single ER doctor choose who gets to live?

Why do they need an on call doctor when they have an attending one?

To the second, they don't get much trauma. It's a small town.

Small towns don't have car crashes?

 

[Firehorse]

There are different degrees of 'finding religion' ... My God doesnt approve of lies (false witness) ... But if me telling a lie would save a life, I would do it in a heartbeat and pray for God mercy for the lie.

By the same token, the doctor is in a place of selecting the 'best' of two evils is his Gods eyes.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

It's not about who would physically do the transfusion, it's about who orders it. Even if paramedics could do a transfusion, they would still only be able to do it under a Doctor's orders. Which is the basis of the hypothetical, the Doctor wouldn't order it.



>>>>

In the hypothetical, the paramedic infused saline in the field. Did he do that on his own, or did he get doctor's orders? If he got orders, how did he get them?

Different type of care. EMT's in the field are providing emergency care to stabilize for transport to the hospital.

EMT's in the field don't carry an array of blood types to do transfusions, they transport to the hospital for that and treatment responsibility is turned over to the ER Doctor.



>>>>

But if he was in the ER, could he take orders over the phone from a doctor to stabilize the patient until the doctor could arrive?