Do Conservatives lack Freewill

[daveman]

Not2BSubjugated, I am a bit older - I assume than you - and until republicans and conservatives started using it, I cannot say it was in common usage. There were of course racist and homophobic 'hate,' but that was finally addressed by our judicial system. Please find us an example of a liberal using the word hate.

Howard Dean - Former governor, head of DNC: I hate Republicans and everything they stand for.​

Plenty more liberal hate speech here: Violent Liberal Hate Rhetoric: Fifteen Quotes - John Hawkins - Page full

[MENTION=5464]midcan5[/MENTION], did you know that if you pretend this post isn't here, it doesn't actually go away?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Addendum.

Since ninety five percent of internet debate is either ad hominem or the more childish, 'no, you are,' I want to expand the premise. American conservatives live in a world in which every change is seen as an attack on their personal freedom, on the free market, or on capitalism itself. Hidden behind every change is socialism, environmentalism, or a new world order. This conspiratorial thinking is seen in every complex issue since - jeez, I really don't know - but I'll start with FDR and the New Deal. Proof that conservative lack freewill can be seen in a vast number of things in which you already know their position. Here are a few, some are simple, some complex: Welfare, pollution/acid rain, tobacco, anthropogenic warming, evolution, sex education, food stamps, the ACA, public education, taxes, and of course government itself when it challenges these three threatened symbols. How this came about is a process that started at the beginning of the last century with advertising and propaganda. Today, as K Street and the many think tanks demonstrate, it has grown to manage the minds of the right, even influencing those who can still stand back and attempt objectivity. Remember the ten hands.

You start a thread with an ad hominen attack, and then complain when you get treated the same way.

I think that makes you the problem, not the solution.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Not2BSubjugated, I am a bit older - I assume than you - and until republicans and conservatives started using it, I cannot say it was in common usage. There were of course racist and homophobic 'hate,' but that was finally addressed by our judicial system. Please find us an example of a liberal using the word hate.

Healthcare like medicare, medicaid, minimum wage, child labor laws, and Social Security etc will one day be the right thing to do for most Americans. Corporate think tanks supported by the wealthy will always fight these things that argue for fairness, that may be a law of the universe, one of those givens. Just as there are still racist and homophobes and conspiracy nuts, there will be those whose moral compass is tilted off center. It is fascinating why this persists, for the interested check out 'Agnotology.'

Quantum Windbag, you always say the nicest things, thanks.

Whenever republicans mention 'freedom' think of those ten hands.

You know who else will always argue against government mandated "fairness"? Anyone for whom individual freedoms rank higher on the values list than "the good of society" as defined by whoever's claiming to be the authority on what is fair.

So if I don't believe in government mandated wealth sharing in the forms of medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, it's because my moral compass is tilted off center? By off center do you mean away from mainstream, or are you trying to tell me that you're qualified to identify correct morals from incorrect morals? Seems to me that, if you're able to identify that on a factual level, all these religions and philosophers are wasting their time, because to know which morals are correct you must know the true nature of the universe and which universal standard of morality is actually a hard value, and not a misinformed opinion.

And if you mean away from mainstream and aren't making a ridiculous philosophical claim, then please explain to me how not having the same morals as everybody else is some kind of mental or emotional malfunction.

Cuz that's what this part of your argument boils down to: Either you somehow think that your version of right and wrong is the correct version and superior to anyone else's version of right and wrong, or you think that not sharing the same version of right and wrong as the majority is a mental malfunction.

So when Hitler said fuck the jews, let's arrest them all and take over the world, any of the German minority who questioned that course of action, which had a -lot- of support, were actually mentally ill. Those guys marching the jews into gas chambers were just doing what any sane, mentally healthy individual would do, and going with the flock.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Addendum.

Since ninety five percent of internet debate is either ad hominem or the more childish, 'no, you are,' I want to expand the premise. American conservatives live in a world in which every change is seen as an attack on their personal freedom, on the free market, or on capitalism itself. Hidden behind every change is socialism, environmentalism, or a new world order. This conspiratorial thinking is seen in every complex issue since - jeez, I really don't know - but I'll start with FDR and the New Deal. Proof that conservative lack freewill can be seen in a vast number of things in which you already know their position. Here are a few, some are simple, some complex: Welfare, pollution/acid rain, tobacco, anthropogenic warming, evolution, sex education, food stamps, the ACA, public education, taxes, and of course government itself when it challenges these three threatened symbols. How this came about is a process that started at the beginning of the last century with advertising and propaganda. Today, as K Street and the many think tanks demonstrate, it has grown to manage the minds of the right, even influencing those who can still stand back and attempt objectivity. Remember the ten hands.

So this represents a lack of free will?

Here's what you just did here: You identified three of the primary values of many conservatives, then you listed a bunch of issues where those three primary values decide which side of the issue that those people holding those values are on.

Essentially, you just said that conservatives lack free will because they base their opinions on their values.

I hate to break this to you, but if someone whose issue-by-issue opinions are based on their values is someone who lacks free will, then -nobody- has free will. Value-based opinions are not phenomena native to the landscape of the conservative mind.

Value-based opinions include -all- opinions held by -all- reasoning creatures.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Also, just for kicks:

With this post alone, you've shown that not only are you a hardcore lefty who thinks anyone who disagrees with you is stupid or mentally deficient, but you've also shown a complete inability to even dissect the arguments that -you're- making, which doesn't give me a lot of faith in your ability to analyze input.

So, when you're literally the -only- person "older than me" who I've ever heard make the claim that the word "hate" was made popular by "republicans and conservatives", I gotta call bullshit.

I'm guessing this was also past the turn of the century? I only say that because, before that was the age of the Dixiecrats, back when the party associated with racism was actually the Democrat party. So if Republicans made hate popular, it must have been sometime in the last 70'ish years?

Before that, hate was rarely used?

LMFAO

Since you asked for examples of liberals using the word hate (which is a pretty f'in hilarious thing to want documentation to back up), I'll make a similar request.

Show me proof that republicans were the ones that made hate a household term.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Addendum.

Since ninety five percent of internet debate is either ad hominem or the more childish, 'no, you are,' I want to expand the premise. American conservatives live in a world in which every change is seen as an attack on their personal freedom, on the free market, or on capitalism itself. Hidden behind every change is socialism, environmentalism, or a new world order. This conspiratorial thinking is seen in every complex issue since - jeez, I really don't know - but I'll start with FDR and the New Deal. Proof that conservative lack freewill can be seen in a vast number of things in which you already know their position. Here are a few, some are simple, some complex: Welfare, pollution/acid rain, tobacco, anthropogenic warming, evolution, sex education, food stamps, the ACA, public education, taxes, and of course government itself when it challenges these three threatened symbols. How this came about is a process that started at the beginning of the last century with advertising and propaganda. Today, as K Street and the many think tanks demonstrate, it has grown to manage the minds of the right, even influencing those who can still stand back and attempt objectivity. Remember the ten hands.

So this represents a lack of free will?

Here's what you just did here: You identified three of the primary values of many conservatives, then you listed a bunch of issues where those three primary values decide which side of the issue that those people holding those values are on.

Essentially, you just said that conservatives lack free will because they base their opinions on their values.

I hate to break this to you, but if someone whose issue-by-issue opinions are based on their values is someone who lacks free will, then -nobody- has free will. Value-based opinions are not phenomena native to the landscape of the conservative mind.

Value-based opinions include -all- opinions held by -all- reasoning creatures.

You are probably wasting your time. Even if he actually listens to you, he will end up pretending he always believed he agrees with you.

 

[midcan5]

....did you know that if you pretend this post isn't here, it doesn't actually go away?

I did glance at that and a mea culpa is in order. If I were a right wing fundamentalist as most of you are, I'd claim that's because of the right's use of it first. But being a freedom loving liberal, I will say it is uncalled for and diminishes the spokesperson. I did check on Dean's comment and he did wish he had said he hated republican policies, but that's a poor excuse. Like the child who gets caught.

I have to read through the other comments when time permits to see if there is any challenge to my premise that I already know your response and I know why. So far the premise holds.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

....did you know that if you pretend this post isn't here, it doesn't actually go away?

I did glance at that and a mea culpa is in order. If I were a right wing fundamentalist as most of you are, I'd claim that's because of the right's use of it first. But being a freedom loving liberal, I will say it is uncalled for and diminishes the spokesperson. I did check on Dean's comment and he did wish he had said he hated republican policies, but that's a poor excuse. Like the child who gets caught.

I have to read through the other comments when time permits to see if there is any challenge to my premise that I already know your response and I know why. So far the premise holds.

If you were really a freedom living liberal you wouldn't see a need to insult people who disagree with you. you would realize that different people have different values, and can see other things as a priority, and you would want them to have the freedom to make their own choices based on those values. Since that is not you, you are not a freedom living liberal.

 

[midcan5]

Not2BSubjugated, you're missing the point, you can dress them up in the finest finery but your freedom loving republicans all sing the same tune. Were you asleep during the last election, did you not see the machine crush Romney every time he moved away from the script. Did you not see them kowtow to ideas because they had to kowtow. Point still holds, corporate think tanks manage the minds of American conservatives. Socialism is coming, socialism is coming!!!! And when did the republican party become a bunch of relativists - you need to revise that thought.

Quantum Windbag, situation meet Quantum, now we must respect every idea, every value, that's precious, do I have to mention lots of ideas that are not too precious. Freedom gives me too the ability to call someone's idea stupid. Funny I recall you using that just above somewhere. Can you spell hypocritical.

Whenever a republican conservative mentions freedom remember those ten hands.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Not2BSubjugated, you're missing the point, you can dress them up in the finest finery but your freedom loving republicans all sing the same tune. Were you asleep during the last election, did you not see the machine crush Romney every time he moved away from the script. Did you not see them kowtow to ideas because they had to kowtow. Point still holds, corporate think tanks manage the minds of American conservatives. Socialism is coming, socialism is coming!!!! And when did the republican party become a bunch of relativists - you need to revise that thought.

Quantum Windbag, situation meet Quantum, now we must respect every idea, every value, that's precious, do I have to mention lots of ideas that are not too precious. Freedom gives me too the ability to call someone's idea stupid. Funny I recall you using that just above somewhere. Can you spell hypocritical.

Whenever a republican conservative mentions freedom remember those ten hands.

I don't respect every idea, asshole. I do, however, understand that I am not always right. I also understand that, even when I am right, it is possible for other people to be disagree with me and not be wrong. People have different value systems, that doesn't mean they are wrong, even when I mock them. I understand that compassion trumps common sense for some people, but I will never force those people to live by common sense if they prefer to allow thieves access to their bank accounts. I only really object when they insist that the thieves should have access to other people's accounts.

I also understand the simple fact that there are more than two options in politics.

 

[Billo_Really]

You should see the cow they have when we free willie.

 

[daveman]

....did you know that if you pretend this post isn't here, it doesn't actually go away?

I did glance at that and a mea culpa is in order. If I were a right wing fundamentalist as most of you are, I'd claim that's because of the right's use of it first. But being a freedom loving liberal, I will say it is uncalled for and diminishes the spokesperson. I did check on Dean's comment and he did wish he had said he hated republican policies, but that's a poor excuse. Like the child who gets caught.

I have to read through the other comments when time permits to see if there is any challenge to my premise that I already know your response and I know why. So far the premise holds.

Circular logic. "I want it to be true, so it's true."

You're not a bright person.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Not2BSubjugated, you're missing the point, you can dress them up in the finest finery but your freedom loving republicans all sing the same tune. Were you asleep during the last election, did you not see the machine crush Romney every time he moved away from the script. Did you not see them kowtow to ideas because they had to kowtow. Point still holds, corporate think tanks manage the minds of American conservatives. Socialism is coming, socialism is coming!!!! And when did the republican party become a bunch of relativists - you need to revise that thought.

Quantum Windbag, situation meet Quantum, now we must respect every idea, every value, that's precious, do I have to mention lots of ideas that are not too precious. Freedom gives me too the ability to call someone's idea stupid. Funny I recall you using that just above somewhere. Can you spell hypocritical.

Whenever a republican conservative mentions freedom remember those ten hands.

So that's what it finally boils down to when all the other reasoning's been shot down.

You can tell that republican conservatives lack free will because they all have the same opinions?

First off, I'm sure that you're aware that the Republican party's widely regarded as having split into two primary factions: neocons and tea partiers. So realistically, they sing at least two different tunes.

That's neither here nor there.

Essentially your point came down to conservatives following the party line because they're told what to think, which is, according to you, controlled by corporate think tanks.

Here's where we can agree. Most republicans are told what to think by republican controlled media sources. Here's where you probably won't agree. Most democrats are told what to think by liberal and democrat controlled media sources.

Do you know why whoever won American Idol for those first few years made insane sales on their following album releases?

Do you know why, across the country, the radio stations with the highest ratings are the radio stations playing back whatever 12 or 13 songs MTV has in rotation at any given time?

Do you know why more people buy Cocopuffs than the 1/2 priced Maltomeal generic shit that tastes identical?

Because -people- and not just conservatives are conditioned to think whatever the fuck their tv tells them to think.

Still doubt that Democrats are guilty of this same lack of intellectual self-initiative? How many different tunes to the Dems sing? Silly thing to point out that everyone in a political party has the same political views, though. That's why they're in the same political party, after all. The right's just like the left. You've got the establishment politicians in the middle. . . most of them look moderate because they don't really exemplify principals. They do whatever's politically expedient and are typically more worried about keeping their jobs than doing their jobs.

At the edges you've got Marxist/occupy types on the left and tea party and libertarian types on the right. I really don't see how one party or the other can be said to have more varied opinions. You know why that is?

Cuz most of us having these political discussions were born and raised in this country, or in the Western hemisphere, where that's the -entire- range of political philosophies anyone's likely to have been raised hearing about. Another one we all share: we generally tend to believe the principals and philosophies with which we were raised. Most people are basically sheep when it comes to anything as abstract as philosophy. That's why you don't see a lot of people in the western hemisphere arguing for a return to monarchy, or lobbying to get their governments to become religious theocracies. These systems have generally been frowned upon for a few generations everywhere west of the atlantic, and so people born into societies on this side of the planet generally weren't raised being taught that there was any merit to these systems. If people had more "free will" as you so inaptly put it, you'd see more wacky political ideas than you do that don't really fall under any popular democrat or republican leaning philosophies.

Brings me to my last point. The fact that most -people- (not republicans, not democrats, not liberals, not conservatives, but most -people-) believe whatever their conservative or liberal media sources tell them doesn't in the least demonstrate a lack of free will. It demonstrates both intellectual laziness and/or a general lack of critical thinking skills. We live in a society that has very little respect for education and intelligence where, generally, recreational intellectual pursuits are looked upon as nerdy or dorky. Why read if you don't have to? LEt's pound some beers and watch 2 and a half men! (I actually kinda liked that show when Charlie was on it). So if most people are preconditioned to not want to do things like read or think if they don't have to, you can expect nothing less than a political landscape packed full of parrots repeating the latest dem or rep sound bytes ad nauseam.

This entire post and the fact that you only notice that the opposing side is guilty of this leads me to believe that you're one of those parrots

 

[midcan5]

Yesterday every conservative republican, every conservative talking head, every presumed free spirit tea partier, all said 'they were willing to compromise.' Imagine that for a moment. I joked that the repeating of the same words, the same ideas required an implanted teleprompter, but maybe there is simpler reason for their demonstration of a lack of freewill, maybe the point guy text messages them their thoughts. All the debate on why my premise is untrue is thrown to the wind. When it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quakes like a duck, there must be something at work. Allow a joke, maybe it is simply a self imposed lack of freewill for otherwise what the heck would they do? They surely do nothing constructive for the nation. Nothing.

When ever a tea party republican or conservative republican mentions freedom, remember those ten hands. The Regressive Antidote - If Conservatism Is The Ideology of Freedom, I'm The Queen of England

Not2BSubjugated, you often sound like a preacher? I may comment when time permits on your sermon. No offence meant Minister/Father/Rabbi/Mullah.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." Richard Feynman

 

[daveman]

Yesterday every conservative republican, every conservative talking head, every presumed free spirit tea partier, all said 'they were willing to compromise.' Imagine that for a moment. I joked that the repeating of the same words, the same ideas required an implanted teleprompter, but maybe there is simpler reason for their demonstration of a lack of freewill, maybe the point guy text messages them their thoughts. All the debate on why my premise is untrue is thrown to the wind. When it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quakes like a duck, there must be something at work. Allow a joke, maybe it is simply a self imposed lack of freewill for otherwise what the heck would they do? They surely do nothing constructive for the nation. Nothing.

When ever a tea party republican or conservative republican mentions freedom, remember those ten hands. The Regressive Antidote - If Conservatism Is The Ideology of Freedom, I'm The Queen of England

Not2BSubjugated, you often sound like a preacher? I may comment when time permits on your sermon. No offence meant Minister/Father/Rabbi/Mullah.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." Richard Feynman

Yesterday every liberal Democrat, every liberal talking head, every presumed free spirit progressive, all said "It's the Republicans' fault!"

But they all simultaneously arrived at that conclusion independently, right? Just sheer coincidence. Yeah. HAS to be.

Right, middie?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yesterday every conservative republican, every conservative talking head, every presumed free spirit tea partier, all said 'they were willing to compromise.' Imagine that for a moment. I joked that the repeating of the same words, the same ideas required an implanted teleprompter, but maybe there is simpler reason for their demonstration of a lack of freewill, maybe the point guy text messages them their thoughts. All the debate on why my premise is untrue is thrown to the wind. When it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quakes like a duck, there must be something at work. Allow a joke, maybe it is simply a self imposed lack of freewill for otherwise what the heck would they do? They surely do nothing constructive for the nation. Nothing.

When ever a tea party republican or conservative republican mentions freedom, remember those ten hands. The Regressive Antidote - If Conservatism Is The Ideology of Freedom, I'm The Queen of England

Not2BSubjugated, you often sound like a preacher? I may comment when time permits on your sermon. No offence meant Minister/Father/Rabbi/Mullah.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." Richard Feynman

That site is almost as funny as The Onion, and half as serious.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Yesterday every conservative republican, every conservative talking head, every presumed free spirit tea partier, all said 'they were willing to compromise.' Imagine that for a moment. I joked that the repeating of the same words, the same ideas required an implanted teleprompter, but maybe there is simpler reason for their demonstration of a lack of freewill, maybe the point guy text messages them their thoughts. All the debate on why my premise is untrue is thrown to the wind. When it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quakes like a duck, there must be something at work. Allow a joke, maybe it is simply a self imposed lack of freewill for otherwise what the heck would they do? They surely do nothing constructive for the nation. Nothing.

When ever a tea party republican or conservative republican mentions freedom, remember those ten hands. The Regressive Antidote - If Conservatism Is The Ideology of Freedom, I'm The Queen of England

Not2BSubjugated, you often sound like a preacher? I may comment when time permits on your sermon. No offence meant Minister/Father/Rabbi/Mullah.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." Richard Feynman

I love your little jabs. So random.

Anyway, the reason for all the republicans on TV yesterday saying they were willing to negotiate might be even simpler than the one you offer up. It might be that, considering that the congress sent three different proposals out, "the right" has been willing to negotiate the whole time. Maybe the people who observed that through lenses uncolored by the assumption that any peel back on Obamacare is evil simply agreed on what they were watching.

Is that so hard to imagine? That people with similar values would come to the same conclusions on what they were watching in politics?

Also, how does this prove your conclusion that "conservatives" lack free will? Simply because the ones you seen on TV were saying the same shit? You've never noticed Democrats doing the same thing? Cuz I've seen plenty of footage of it.

Also, simply because the TV talking heads were parroting a point, this is enough reason for you to feel safe in the assumption that -all- republicans and tea partiers were parroting the same thought, and thus all conservatives are told what to think?

Good lord, man. Reading someone with your apparent intellect take on a topic as abstract as free will is like listening to my pot dealer ramble on about the spiritual power of crystals. Leaps and leaps and leaps of logic. I get winded.

 

[midcan5]

Not2BSubjugated, et al

It's neat of you to claim the republican party is split between different factions, but the truth is they all do the same two step. You see that clearly in their congressional voting. Yes, corporations have great power so we agree there, where we disagree is that a liberal media exists and thus controls the left. I don't see this because the left cannot get its act together any longer. Examples abound, Clinton kowtowing to corporations over NAFTA among other stupid political actions he took. He sold out and his wonderful reputation today is as imaginary as Reagan's. If for the sake of social agreement I were to admit republican divergence, it would be social/religious vs economic/libertarian.

I agree on the power of TV ads but you give them too much credit. Check Trader Joe's or Whole Foods as counter examples of that tasteless stuff the pretentious eater eats. Of course in America even eating carries a certain symbolism. Familiarity does lead to more sales but that still requires some desire on the part of the audience. Yes, Dem's too exhibit all these same traits, my personal reason for being more democratic is they occasionally do the good thing. But locally I have voted for more republicans often. I would be an independent, but that is kinda a useless position, esp in Philly.

Getting outside that box (life) is a tough task but sometimes, slowly, change, progress, call it whatever, happens. Witness the changing attitudes towards gays in America. Odd you mention monarchy, I have actually heard a few conservative teachers I know wish for a benevolent dictator. In their mind they want simple. But again we agree, one can only know what what knows. (read Stanley Fish sometime)

Off topic. I disliked 'two and a half dorks,' lol. Actually I can't stand most TV, what the heck is the appeal of 'the big bang theory' or 'Modern Family,' as a child I liked 'leave it to beaver,' at least that was a nice unreality. On topic. My use of freewill was a bit of hyperbole, actually we all lack freewill as you more or less noted above. That can be another discussion. So the predicament is given our fixed ideas how is it we do the right thing. I would not agree that both sides are the same, while both sides are often useless, at least there are brief moments when the democrats, the more liberal democrats, do the right thing, the good thing. of course when only fools run for office, fools run things, that's everyone's fault who doesn't vote nor pay attention. The usual equivalency comeback, as noted by my two friends above, doesn't work, there are real differences sometimes it's only 5 to 4.

PS time to read the NYT so I know what to think today. hahahaha

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Amazing this thread is in "Philosophy"

Laughable

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Amazing this thread is in "Philosophy"

Laughable

I think it belongs here, philosophy has been a joke since the death of Aristotle.