Destiny and Free Will

[Quantum Windbag]

I think I kind of understand what the OP is getting at.

If we have free will, then God cannot be all knowing and all powerful because Free will will allow some randomness into the universe. I.E. God can't possibly know exactly what you will do in the future because your free will allows you to mak a different decisions, on the other hand if he did know then free will can not exist because you are following a script that god has written before hand(How else would God know what is to occur)

So there seems to be a contradiction here--either We have free will even from God, or we believe we have free will but God has determined everything ahead of time and we only are misleading ourselves into believing we are in control of our destiny.

Of course Free Will versus Predetermination has some similiar contradictions on their own.

For instance--If we live in a fully predetermined universe--God already knows which of us is going to Heaven and Hell before we are even created. In fact, God has designed all of reality so therefore all good and evil in it has been predestined to exist before the Universe was ever created. It is Gods script, we are no more than play actors following our roles. This seems like a pretty hopeless view of existance to me.

On the other hand, Free will tends to indicate that God cannot be all knowing for God cannot know an individuals action(If God did know an individual actions it is because God made it so--thus predestination pops up again. But we are suppose the opposite.) Thus God cannot be all knowing. For if God is all knowing, then we have predestination--God knows because he made it so.


Maybe I am missing something here. I guess I need to look at some Christian theological arguments to see what others say.

It is entirely possible to know everything that has happened without knowing everything that will happen.

Not that I actually believe that God is omniscient, that is a quality ascribed to God by Greek philosophy, not the Bible.

so god is not all we make him out to be?

Is there a mouse in your pocket? Trying to build consensus with me again? It won't work.

 

[daws101]

It is entirely possible to know everything that has happened without knowing everything that will happen.

Not that I actually believe that God is omniscient, that is a quality ascribed to God by Greek philosophy, not the Bible.

so god is not all we make him out to be?

Is there a mouse in your pocket? Trying to build consensus with me again? It won't work.

why would you think that? I could give a shit.about what you wish god was...then again with this sentence:" Not that I actually believe that God is omniscient,"- QW
you just tripped over your dick.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

so god is not all we make him out to be?

Is there a mouse in your pocket? Trying to build consensus with me again? It won't work.

why would you think that? I could give a shit.about what you wish god was...then again with this sentence:" Not that I actually believe that God is omniscient,"- QW
you just tripped over your dick.

If He is omniscient, and I am wrong, then He is actually more than I am ascribing to Him, not less. I didn't trip over anything, you tripped over your ego.

 

[daws101]

Is there a mouse in your pocket? Trying to build consensus with me again? It won't work.

why would you think that? I could give a shit.about what you wish god was...then again with this sentence:" Not that I actually believe that God is omniscient,"- QW
you just tripped over your dick.

If He is omniscient, and I am wrong, then He is actually more than I am ascribing to Him, not less. I didn't trip over anything, you tripped over your ego.

false...he'd be what most people believe him to be...and you'd still be wrong.
you're mistaking ego for directness..

 

[Quantum Windbag]

why would you think that? I could give a shit.about what you wish god was...then again with this sentence:" Not that I actually believe that God is omniscient,"- QW
you just tripped over your dick.

If He is omniscient, and I am wrong, then He is actually more than I am ascribing to Him, not less. I didn't trip over anything, you tripped over your ego.

false...he'd be what most people believe him to be...and you'd still be wrong.
you're mistaking ego for directness..

Most people don't think about it. Like you, they just believe whatever they were told last.

 

[daws101]

If He is omniscient, and I am wrong, then He is actually more than I am ascribing to Him, not less. I didn't trip over anything, you tripped over your ego.

false...he'd be what most people believe him to be...and you'd still be wrong.
you're mistaking ego for directness..

Most people don't think about it. Like you, they just believe whatever they were told last.

wrong again..since I don't" believe "

 

[Quantum Windbag]

false...he'd be what most people believe him to be...and you'd still be wrong.
you're mistaking ego for directness..

Most people don't think about it. Like you, they just believe whatever they were told last.

wrong again..since I don't" believe "

You didn't come up with the BS you posted earlier, somebody told you about it.

 

[daws101]

Most people don't think about it. Like you, they just believe whatever they were told last.

wrong again..since I don't" believe "

You didn't come up with the BS you posted earlier, somebody told you about it.

why yes I did, believe it or not...
besides what evidence do you have that I could not, other than your pretentiousness?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

wrong again..since I don't" believe "

You didn't come up with the BS you posted earlier, somebody told you about it.

why yes I did, believe it or not...
besides what evidence do you have that I could not, other than your pretentiousness?

Because, if you came up with it yourself, you would have known that not all Protestants believe the exact same thing.

 

[daws101]

You didn't come up with the BS you posted earlier, somebody told you about it.

why yes I did, believe it or not...
besides what evidence do you have that I could not, other than your pretentiousness?

Because, if you came up with it yourself, you would have known that not all Protestants believe the exact same thing.

bahahahahaha! had to dig for that one did we?
still wrong though....all christians believe there will be some sort of reckoning and the return of jesus, do they not?
that in itself is proof of belief in predestination...
protestants do what all christians do, they make god over in their own image..
last time I checked that was a big NO.NO.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

all christians believe there will be some sort of reckoning and the return of jesus, do they not?

The answer to your question is no.

But you were told otherwise, so you believe it.

 

[daws101]

all christians believe there will be some sort of reckoning and the return of jesus, do they not?

The answer to your question is no.

But you were told otherwise, so you believe it.

wrong again....

Christian beliefs

Below is a list of some things that Christians believe:

1. God created all that is seen and unseen
Christians believe that God is the creator of all people, the world, the universe, and everything seen and unseen. This is based on various Bible passages, including the first chapter of the Bible's book of Genesis.

2. Jesus is the Son of God and is one with God
Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he is one with God, and that he was sent here for our salvation. In John 10:30 (NIV translation), John the Apostle quotes Jesus as saying, "I and the Father are one."

3. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary
Christians believe that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit of God and born through the Virgin Mary. As explained in Matthew 1:18 (NIV), "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit."

4. Jesus suffered and was crucified
Jesus suffered and died for our sins. Jesus was falsely accused of being an anti-government rebel and, as explained in Matthew 27:23-56, he was brought to Pontius Pilate to be executed through crucifixion. He was mocked, beaten, taunted and crucified by the Romans.

5. Jesus died and was buried
Jesus died after being crucified. He was buried in a tomb that was owned by a man named Joseph of Arimathea, who was a follower of Jesus. In Matthew 27:57-60 (NIV), the Bible says, "As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away."

6. Jesus rose again (the Resurrection)
Jesus was resurrected, which means that he died and was brought back to life again. The resurrection of Jesus is described in various places throughout the Bible's New Testament, including in the New Testament book of John, chapter 20. As explained in the Bible, all people who die before Judgment Day will be resurrected. The people who believe in Jesus will be resurrected to eternal life in Heaven. Those who do not believe in Jesus will be condemned, eternally, by their own sins, as explained in John 3:18, and elsewhere.

7. Jesus ascended into Heaven
Jesus ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father. This happened after Jesus was resurrected. We too can go to Heaven, through faith in Jesus Christ. As explained in Mark 16:19-20 (NIV): "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

8. Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead
Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. In Matthew 24:30 (NIV), Jesus is quoted as saying that he will return: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." Additional details are provided elsewhere, such as in the New Testament passages of John 5:28,29 and 2 Timothy 4:1-3. You can learn more about Jesus at the About-Jesus.org web site.

9. Anyone can have salvation
All people may receive salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. In Romans 10:12 (NIV), for example, it says: "For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him".

10. People who repent of their sins will be forgiven
People are forgiven and saved if they confess their sins and confess their belief in the resurrection of Jesus. As explained in Romans 10:9-10 (NIV), "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

John 3:16 (NIV):
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

 

[Smilebong]

The question that the OP asks is probably the most argued question among thinking Christians.

The hard part is when you are arguing with two different sets of preconceived notions of what is true and what is not. If I use the Bible, unbelievers will argue that the Bible is not reliable. The problem is that my view is that the Bible is totally reliable, and so it is almost impossible to discuss this.

 

[daws101]

The question that the OP asks is probably the most argued question among thinking Christians.

The hard part is when you are arguing with two different sets of preconceived notions of what is true and what is not. If I use the Bible, unbelievers will argue that the Bible is not reliable. The problem is that my view is that the Bible is totally reliable, and so it is almost impossible to discuss this.

that does not answer the question.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

all christians believe there will be some sort of reckoning and the return of jesus, do they not?

The answer to your question is no.

But you were told otherwise, so you believe it.

wrong again....

Christian beliefs

Below is a list of some things that Christians believe:

1. God created all that is seen and unseen
Christians believe that God is the creator of all people, the world, the universe, and everything seen and unseen. This is based on various Bible passages, including the first chapter of the Bible's book of Genesis.

2. Jesus is the Son of God and is one with God
Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he is one with God, and that he was sent here for our salvation. In John 10:30 (NIV translation), John the Apostle quotes Jesus as saying, "I and the Father are one."

3. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary
Christians believe that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit of God and born through the Virgin Mary. As explained in Matthew 1:18 (NIV), "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit."

4. Jesus suffered and was crucified
Jesus suffered and died for our sins. Jesus was falsely accused of being an anti-government rebel and, as explained in Matthew 27:23-56, he was brought to Pontius Pilate to be executed through crucifixion. He was mocked, beaten, taunted and crucified by the Romans.

5. Jesus died and was buried
Jesus died after being crucified. He was buried in a tomb that was owned by a man named Joseph of Arimathea, who was a follower of Jesus. In Matthew 27:57-60 (NIV), the Bible says, "As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away."

6. Jesus rose again (the Resurrection)
Jesus was resurrected, which means that he died and was brought back to life again. The resurrection of Jesus is described in various places throughout the Bible's New Testament, including in the New Testament book of John, chapter 20. As explained in the Bible, all people who die before Judgment Day will be resurrected. The people who believe in Jesus will be resurrected to eternal life in Heaven. Those who do not believe in Jesus will be condemned, eternally, by their own sins, as explained in John 3:18, and elsewhere.

7. Jesus ascended into Heaven
Jesus ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father. This happened after Jesus was resurrected. We too can go to Heaven, through faith in Jesus Christ. As explained in Mark 16:19-20 (NIV): "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

8. Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead
Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. In Matthew 24:30 (NIV), Jesus is quoted as saying that he will return: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." Additional details are provided elsewhere, such as in the New Testament passages of John 5:28,29 and 2 Timothy 4:1-3. You can learn more about Jesus at the About-Jesus.org web site.

9. Anyone can have salvation
All people may receive salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. In Romans 10:12 (NIV), for example, it says: "For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him".

10. People who repent of their sins will be forgiven
People are forgiven and saved if they confess their sins and confess their belief in the resurrection of Jesus. As explained in Romans 10:9-10 (NIV), "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

John 3:16 (NIV):
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Look up amillennialism.

 

[LittleNipper]

The answer to your question is no.

But you were told otherwise, so you believe it.

wrong again....

Christian beliefs

Below is a list of some things that Christians believe:

1. God created all that is seen and unseen
Christians believe that God is the creator of all people, the world, the universe, and everything seen and unseen. This is based on various Bible passages, including the first chapter of the Bible's book of Genesis.

2. Jesus is the Son of God and is one with God
Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he is one with God, and that he was sent here for our salvation. In John 10:30 (NIV translation), John the Apostle quotes Jesus as saying, "I and the Father are one."

3. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary
Christians believe that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit of God and born through the Virgin Mary. As explained in Matthew 1:18 (NIV), "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit."

4. Jesus suffered and was crucified
Jesus suffered and died for our sins. Jesus was falsely accused of being an anti-government rebel and, as explained in Matthew 27:23-56, he was brought to Pontius Pilate to be executed through crucifixion. He was mocked, beaten, taunted and crucified by the Romans.

5. Jesus died and was buried
Jesus died after being crucified. He was buried in a tomb that was owned by a man named Joseph of Arimathea, who was a follower of Jesus. In Matthew 27:57-60 (NIV), the Bible says, "As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away."

6. Jesus rose again (the Resurrection)
Jesus was resurrected, which means that he died and was brought back to life again. The resurrection of Jesus is described in various places throughout the Bible's New Testament, including in the New Testament book of John, chapter 20. As explained in the Bible, all people who die before Judgment Day will be resurrected. The people who believe in Jesus will be resurrected to eternal life in Heaven. Those who do not believe in Jesus will be condemned, eternally, by their own sins, as explained in John 3:18, and elsewhere.

7. Jesus ascended into Heaven
Jesus ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father. This happened after Jesus was resurrected. We too can go to Heaven, through faith in Jesus Christ. As explained in Mark 16:19-20 (NIV): "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

8. Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead
Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. In Matthew 24:30 (NIV), Jesus is quoted as saying that he will return: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." Additional details are provided elsewhere, such as in the New Testament passages of John 5:28,29 and 2 Timothy 4:1-3. You can learn more about Jesus at the About-Jesus.org web site.

9. Anyone can have salvation
All people may receive salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. In Romans 10:12 (NIV), for example, it says: "For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him".

10. People who repent of their sins will be forgiven
People are forgiven and saved if they confess their sins and confess their belief in the resurrection of Jesus. As explained in Romans 10:9-10 (NIV), "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

John 3:16 (NIV):
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Look up amillennialism.

The lion hasn't laid down with the lamb as of yet. This has not been fulfilled, but this will happen.

 

[Smilebong]

The question that the OP asks is probably the most argued question among thinking Christians.

The hard part is when you are arguing with two different sets of preconceived notions of what is true and what is not. If I use the Bible, unbelievers will argue that the Bible is not reliable. The problem is that my view is that the Bible is totally reliable, and so it is almost impossible to discuss this.

that does not answer the question.

And you are the case in point. You don't want to discuss this. You want to flay Christianity from your anti-belief position.

 

[pacer]

Look up amillennialism.

Amillennialists do indeed believe in the Second Coming and the existence of a millennium but not in the literal sense.

The name “amillennialism” does not adequately characterize the eschatological system. Etymologically, the word means “no millennium,” since the prefix “a” in Greek negates the word to which it is connected.

Amillennialists, however, don't adhere to the non-existence of a millennium, but just that it 's not a literal 1,000 year period.

Amillennial view holds that the thousand years is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age. Amillennialism holds that while Christ's 1000 year reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent physical reign.

Amillennialism - ReligionFacts

 

[daws101]

The answer to your question is no.

But you were told otherwise, so you believe it.

wrong again....

Christian beliefs

Below is a list of some things that Christians believe:

1. God created all that is seen and unseen
Christians believe that God is the creator of all people, the world, the universe, and everything seen and unseen. This is based on various Bible passages, including the first chapter of the Bible's book of Genesis.

2. Jesus is the Son of God and is one with God
Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he is one with God, and that he was sent here for our salvation. In John 10:30 (NIV translation), John the Apostle quotes Jesus as saying, "I and the Father are one."

3. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary
Christians believe that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit of God and born through the Virgin Mary. As explained in Matthew 1:18 (NIV), "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit."

4. Jesus suffered and was crucified
Jesus suffered and died for our sins. Jesus was falsely accused of being an anti-government rebel and, as explained in Matthew 27:23-56, he was brought to Pontius Pilate to be executed through crucifixion. He was mocked, beaten, taunted and crucified by the Romans.

5. Jesus died and was buried
Jesus died after being crucified. He was buried in a tomb that was owned by a man named Joseph of Arimathea, who was a follower of Jesus. In Matthew 27:57-60 (NIV), the Bible says, "As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away."

6. Jesus rose again (the Resurrection)
Jesus was resurrected, which means that he died and was brought back to life again. The resurrection of Jesus is described in various places throughout the Bible's New Testament, including in the New Testament book of John, chapter 20. As explained in the Bible, all people who die before Judgment Day will be resurrected. The people who believe in Jesus will be resurrected to eternal life in Heaven. Those who do not believe in Jesus will be condemned, eternally, by their own sins, as explained in John 3:18, and elsewhere.

7. Jesus ascended into Heaven
Jesus ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father. This happened after Jesus was resurrected. We too can go to Heaven, through faith in Jesus Christ. As explained in Mark 16:19-20 (NIV): "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

8. Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead
Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. In Matthew 24:30 (NIV), Jesus is quoted as saying that he will return: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." Additional details are provided elsewhere, such as in the New Testament passages of John 5:28,29 and 2 Timothy 4:1-3. You can learn more about Jesus at the About-Jesus.org web site.

9. Anyone can have salvation
All people may receive salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. In Romans 10:12 (NIV), for example, it says: "For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him".

10. People who repent of their sins will be forgiven
People are forgiven and saved if they confess their sins and confess their belief in the resurrection of Jesus. As explained in Romans 10:9-10 (NIV), "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

John 3:16 (NIV):
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Look up amillennialism.

The amillennial view comes from using one method of interpretation for unfulfilled prophecy and another method for non-prophetic Scripture and fulfilled prophecy. Non-prophetic Scripture and fulfilled prophecy are interpreted literally or normally. But, according to the amillennialist, unfulfilled prophecy is to be interpreted spiritually, or non-literally. Those who hold to amillennialism believe that a “spiritual” reading of unfulfilled prophecy is the normal reading of the texts. This is called using a dual hermeneutic. (Hermeneutics is the study of the principles of interpretation.) The amillennialist assumes that most, or all, unfulfilled prophecy is written in symbolic, figurative, spiritual language. Therefore, the amillennialist will assign different meanings to those parts of Scripture instead of the normal, contextual meanings of those words.

Read more: What is amillennialism?

 

[daws101]

The question that the OP asks is probably the most argued question among thinking Christians.

The hard part is when you are arguing with two different sets of preconceived notions of what is true and what is not. If I use the Bible, unbelievers will argue that the Bible is not reliable. The problem is that my view is that the Bible is totally reliable, and so it is almost impossible to discuss this.

that does not answer the question.

And you are the case in point. You don't want to discuss this. You want to flay Christianity from your anti-belief position.

wrong!