Definition

[rtwngAvngr]

Yes, If it weren't for the jews, we would all be singing kum bah yah.

 

[Zhukov]

As long as Israel continues to play this land grabbing game,

Is that what you call unilateral withdrawal? A 'land grabbing game'? Interesting.

 

[dmp]

Get em, Z.

 

[wade]

Is that what you call unilateral withdrawal? A 'land grabbing game'? Interesting.

Unilateral withdrawl from the Gaza strip. They are still grabbing land in the West Bank.

Wade.

 

[drac]

Why should they?

If someone had blamed Pearl Harbour on the US policy with the Japanese, to what end does their alternative policy, that would be kowtowing to the Japanese emporer, serve American interests?

Many blame 9-11 on the US policy with Arabs, and when they do they do one of two things unAmerican.

1 - They obscure exactly what alternative policy would serve better, other than to generally describe it as 'diplomatic' or 'multilateral'.

2 - They deny such policy would only be one of appeasement to Islamic fundamentalist and totalitarian interests in the region.

Does it mean that one cannot disagree/criticize with a policy of usa goverment without being called anti-american?

 

[drac]

One is anti-american when they deny the principals upon which the USA was founded. When they seek to diminish the rights and freedoms provided for by the Constitution. When the seek to force their believes upon others, or take advantage of the minority or the weak.

Wade.

Does it mean bush's push to modify the constitution to limit the rights of gays and lesbians is anti-american? Is constitution "written in stone" and cannot be changed?

 

[drac]

I love and believe in what America believes in. If this country was to abandon the principles in the Constitution I would abandon my love for it. It is what we fight for that is important to me, not where we happen to be fighting it from.

How about changing it?

 

[drac]

It is because of Israel and the US support of Israel that many Arab nations turned to the Soviets for support. It is because of the Soviet support for these Arab states that the USA chose to support other states in the region in the "balance of power" game. Without the Israeli issue, the Shaw would never have lost power in Iran, Iraq would never have become so built up militarily, and Saddam would probably never have attacked Kuwait.

sry this is a bunch of guesses and what ifs
nothing to support your claim

Do you not see that as long as we do not push Isreal to seek a fair and just peace with the Palastinians that the conflict will go on forever, or until one or both sides are eliminated? As long as Israel continues to play this land grabbing game, there is no hope for peace.
Wade.

it takes two to make peace and yet you seems to put all the blame on one side. land for peace was an israeli position and plan for many years now and yet you seems to see only the "land grab"
Where is your "american" view of life, where are the principles of the constitution you are talking about or are they only apply to usa? what about equal rights and self determination for jews?

i think it is very anti-american to use the constitution and principles of the democracy only within usa borders

 

[Comrade]

It is because of Israel and the US support of Israel that many Arab nations turned to the Soviets for support. It is because of the Soviet support for these Arab states that the USA chose to support other states in the region in the "balance of power" game. Without the Israeli issue, the Shaw would never have lost power in Iran, Iraq would never have become so built up militarily, and Saddam would probably never have attacked Kuwait.

Cause/effect per cold war realities were not centered on a tiny state off less than a few million people. Reliance on Middle East oil by the Western Democracies was the primary motive for Soviet expansion of influence to these states, NOT Israel.

The USA was the first country to recognize Israel. It has been the largest funder of Isreal since its inception.

That’s also since the 70’s and not the 40’s, right?

Do you not see that as long as we do not push Isreal to seek a fair and just peace with the Palastinians that the conflict will go on forever, or until one or both sides are eliminated? As long as Israel continues to play this land grabbing game, there is no hope for peace.

The way you’ve insisted on making Jews in the middle east a primary issue, it’s almost like you’d say that if tomorrow, Israel were to accept all PLO demands for Palestinian and ‘peace’, as they call the destruction of this state, it seems like you want to argue that the coalition problems in Iraq would end and democracy, or at least stability, would spontaneously form… not just in Iraq, but in other places vital to American interests in the middle east.

This to me is patently ludicrous.

 

[Comrade]

Does it mean that one cannot disagree/criticize with a policy of usa goverment without being called anti-american?

Absolutely not. Only the limited case I have illustrated would I consider such a proposal to change our policy inherently Anti-American. To oppose the rights of a Liberal democracy overseas at the gain of tyranical Islamic regimes is a betrayal of our country's principles.

 

[Zhukov]

Unilateral withdrawl from the Gaza strip. They are still grabbing land in the West Bank.

Wade.

That's funny. I thought they controlled the whole of the Gaza strip. Are they fabricating new land, calling it Gaza, and then 'grabbing' it? What an odd thing to do...

 

[wade]

Cause/effect per cold war realities were not centered on a tiny state off less than a few million people. Reliance on Middle East oil by the Western Democracies was the primary motive for Soviet expansion of influence to these states, NOT Israel.

But the Israel situtation is what opend the door for the Soviets. Without this factor, the Islamics would never have turned to aethists for support. That the Soviets wanted to expand their influence is not the issue, it is what gave them the opportunity to do so that is.

That’s also since the 70’s and not the 40’s, right?

No. US support of Israel begins in 1948 and continues to the present day.

The way you’ve insisted on making Jews in the middle east a primary issue, it’s almost like you’d say that if tomorrow, Israel were to accept all PLO demands for Palestinian and ‘peace’, as they call the destruction of this state, it seems like you want to argue that the coalition problems in Iraq would end and democracy, or at least stability, would spontaneously form… not just in Iraq, but in other places vital to American interests in the middle east.

This to me is patently ludicrous.

No, I am not saying that if Israel were to vanish tommarow that we'd have peace the next day. It took 50+ years to create this problem, it will take a good while to end it.

What I am saying is that until the Israel-Palastinian issue is resloved fairly and justly, we will never see peace in the ME, and we will always be at risk for terrorist actions. We need to solve this problem so we can then achieve a lasting peace and eliminate this issue which used by the Arab public to justify their support of terrorists.

Wade.

 

[dilloduck]

But the Israel situtation is what opend the door for the Soviets. Without this factor, the Islamics would never have turned to aethists for support. That the Soviets wanted to expand their influence is not the issue, it is what gave them the opportunity to do so that is.




No. US support of Israel begins in 1948 and continues to the present day.



No, I am not saying that if Israel were to vanish tommarow that we'd have peace the next day. It took 50+ years to create this problem, it will take a good while to end it.

What I am saying is that until the Israel-Palastinian issue is resloved fairly and justly, we will never see peace in the ME, and we will always be at risk for terrorist actions. We need to solve this problem so we can then achieve a lasting peace and eliminate this issue which used by the Arab public to justify their support of terrorists.

Wade.

How are you recommending that be done?

 

[wade]

Well, I don't have a lot of time - debate to watch tonight.

But it seems to me a few things could be done. First, a fair land policy needs to be established for Palastinian land claims, especially on the West Bank, and perhaps Israel should stop expanding into this zone or even give up some settlements (as needed to form a proper boarder).

Then, Israel and the USA should simply pay off the palastinains. Pay them something in the neighborhood of $1000-$2000 per family per year. At $2000 per family per year we'd be talking about something in the neigborhood of $2 bil., less than the USA gives Israel per year right now, though I think 2/3rds this would be sufficeint. Then penalize this stipend for terrorist actions against Israel according to some formula that makes it hard for a few acts to dig too deeply into it but which makes it economically painful at the same time. This would encourage the Palastinians to deal with the terrorists to protect their own wallets - almost always an effective people motivator. Israel would also be allowed to compete for these $ (an opportunity for Israeli Arabs) so a good amount of the money would end up back in the Israeli economy.

This would have to be sustained for some reasonable period - perhaps 15 years, and then the amount could be reduced or redirected on some schedule.

Wade.

 

[dilloduck]

Well, I don't have a lot of time - debate to watch tonight.

But it seems to me a few things could be done. First, a fair land policy needs to be established for Palastinian land claims, especially on the West Bank, and perhaps Israel should stop expanding into this zone or even give up some settlements (as needed to form a proper boarder).

Then, Israel and the USA should simply pay off the palastinains. Pay them something in the neighborhood of $1000-$2000 per family per year. At $2000 per family per year we'd be talking about something in the neigborhood of $2 bil., less than the USA gives Israel per year right now, though I think 2/3rds this would be sufficeint. Then penalize this stipend for terrorist actions against Israel according to some formula that makes it hard for a few acts to dig too deeply into it but which makes it economically painful at the same time. This would encourage the Palastinians to deal with the terrorists to protect their own wallets - almost always an effective people motivator. Israel would also be allowed to compete for these $ (an opportunity for Israeli Arabs) so a good amount of the money would end up back in the Israeli economy.

This would have to be sustained for some reasonable period - perhaps 15 years, and then the amount could be reduced or redirected on some schedule.

Wade.

gonna watch too--couple quick questions
Who is going to establish the fair land policy and who is going to ensure the money is properly distributed?

 

[Comrade]

Well, I don't have a lot of time - debate to watch tonight.

But it seems to me a few things could be done. First, a fair land policy needs to be established for Palastinian land claims, especially on the West Bank, and perhaps Israel should stop expanding into this zone or even give up some settlements (as needed to form a proper boarder).

You show a lack of understanding of what constitutes Palestinian opinion with respect to a peacefull solution.

http://www.ipc.gov.ps/ipc_e/ipc_e-1/e_News/news2003/2003-05/111.html

95.4% Palestinian Refugees Assert their Right of Return

Palestine, May 31, 2003, (IPC Exclusive)- - 95.4 % of respondents affirmed their clutching to the Right to return along together with the compensations while 4.6% opposed. Meanwhile 91% affirmed their strong opposition to the principle of compensation in exchange of ceding their Right to Return, 84 % refused the establishment of a Palestinian state in trade of giving up their Right to Return, while 11 % in favor.

The Right to return includes the generations born outside of Israel to all original refugees, to a point where millions of those never born in Israel are now the vast majority of citizens it must absorb to satisfy this ridiculous demand.

The 'right to return' is really an innocous sounding way of demanding the destruction and the looting of Israel as a nation, nothing more. Understand that such a demographic force living in Isreal would overwhelm all tenants of Liberal Democracy and create a single Islamic law for the entire region. Obviously this is part of Palestinian culture today.

Don't honestly tell me you don't understand what this means!

Then, Israel and the USA should simply pay off the palastinains. Pay them something in the neighborhood of $1000-$2000 per family per year. At $2000 per family per year we'd be talking about something in the neigborhood of $2 bil., less than the USA gives Israel per year right now, though I think 2/3rds this would be sufficeint.

Really, it's about money!?!

http://cfrterrorism.org/havens/palestine_print.html

Does the PA receive international aid?

Yes. The PA itself has an operating budget of about $1 billion a year, over half of which comes from Europe and the Arab world. But most of the approximately $500 million per year in international aid that flows into the Palestinian territories, including $75 million from the U.S. Agency for International Development, does not go to the PA. It goes directly to non-PA housing, small-business incubators, educational projects, democratization programs, and other development efforts. In addition, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the U.N. agency that gives humanitarian aid to Palestinian refugees, disburses about $300 million per year to Palestinians living in refugee camps in PA-controlled sections of the West Bank and Gaza.

How else could Arafat now be worth over 1.3 billion?

Where does all that money come from but through existing international aid?

Then penalize this stipend for terrorist actions against Israel according to some formula that makes it hard for a few acts to dig too deeply into it but which makes it economically painful at the same time.

While obviously all funds flowing into Palestine are subject to the same ongoing seizure by the terror groups along with the PLO under Arafat and his own Al Fatah sect of Islamic terrorists.

The point is, we either invade and engage these elements to ration out our assistance (at great cost), or we end up further floating the corrupt government and the terror groups interlinked with them with our own money alongside (or instead of) the EU and Arabs.

This would encourage the Palastinians to deal with the terrorists to protect their own wallets - almost always an effective people motivator. Israel would also be allowed to compete for these $ (an opportunity for Israeli Arabs) so a good amount of the money would end up back in the Israeli economy.
[/I]

A pure fantasy, already the substantial flow of international aid into Palestine is being made a mockery.

Assuring assistance will fix the problems and improve the conditions of the people would require occupation to distribute our aid safely and for what it was intended for. Personally I don't think any American should be dying for Palestinians, let alone give their corrupt and terrorist powers that be more money.

This would have to be sustained for some reasonable period - perhaps 15 years, and then the amount could be reduced or redirected on some schedule.

Arafat and his goons have been getting payoffs for more years than that, and charities for Palestine are notoriously infamous for it's benefactors. From Saddam all the way down the list, everyone giving funds are well aware of how their funds serve to oppose Isreal, and rarely about helping Palestinians. If they wanted to help Palestinians they would have given them citizenship!

I think the solution you propose is therefore flawed.

 

[wade]

Comrade and Dilloduck,

I agree it would not be easy. The funds would have to be given directly to the Palastinain families, not to a Palastinian agency on their behalf. If we can register people to vote in Afghanistan, we can register them to vote and recieve their family stipend in Palastine.

One thing I think we can agree upon - for there to be a meaningful peace between Israel and the Palastinians Arafat needs to go. If necessary, we should have him killed and make it look like it was an "inside" job.

Sharon needs to go too.

Yes I understand what the Palastinians want. What I am saying is what I think would work. They really don't even have to admit to giving up their desired goal of "right of return", the simple financial pressure caused by loosing funds directly out of their pockets when acts of terrorism are commited by Palastinians against Israel would be enough to curb such attacks and quickly (within a few years) end them. Over time the Arabs would give up on the idea of reclaiming the land in Israel proper, as long as they are given reasonable access to religious sights and given a reasonable hope for a decent life. As it is now, they have very little to loose, and such people are always dangerous.

As far as a fair land policy, that is simple. Stop the grossly unfair policy that Israel currently employs. Currently, on the west bank, if non-Israelis wish to claim land, it takes 5 years. At any time during this 5 years, an Israeli can file a claim and take the land within 3 months, even if it is occupied by Arabs who have a claim that is almost 5 years old. What happens all too often is the Arabs find water and build a well, and if it does not go dry within about 3 years, it is claimed by Israeli settlers and the Arabs are forced to abandon it. This is patently unfair. Israel should stop making any claims to land on the West bank, but regaurdless of that, they need to stop stealing the water supply - water is life, especially in that region.

Wade.

 

[dilloduck]

Comrade and Dilloduck,

I agree it would not be easy. The funds would have to be given directly to the Palastinain families, not to a Palastinian agency on their behalf. If we can register people to vote in Afghanistan, we can register them to vote and recieve their family stipend in Palastine.

One thing I think we can agree upon - for there to be a meaningful peace between Israel and the Palastinians Arafat needs to go. If necessary, we should have him killed and make it look like it was an "inside" job.

Sharon needs to go too.

Yes I understand what the Palastinians want. What I am saying is what I think would work. They really don't even have to admit to giving up their desired goal of "right of return", the simple financial pressure caused by loosing funds directly out of their pockets when acts of terrorism are commited by Palastinians against Israel would be enough to curb such attacks and quickly (within a few years) end them. Over time the Arabs would give up on the idea of reclaiming the land in Israel proper, as long as they are given reasonable access to religious sights and given a reasonable hope for a decent life. As it is now, they have very little to loose, and such people are always dangerous.

As far as a fair land policy, that is simple. Stop the grossly unfair policy that Israel currently employs. Currently, on the west bank, if non-Israelis wish to claim land, it takes 5 years. At any time during this 5 years, an Israeli can file a claim and take the land within 3 months, even if it is occupied by Arabs who have a claim that is almost 5 years old. What happens all too often is the Arabs find water and build a well, and if it does not go dry within about 3 years, it is claimed by Israeli settlers and the Arabs are forced to abandon it. This is patently unfair. Israel should stop making any claims to land on the West bank, but regaurdless of that, they need to stop stealing the water supply - water is life, especially in that region.

Wade.

Who is going to establish the fair land policy and who is going to ensure the money is properly distributed?

 

[Comrade]

Comrade and Dilloduck,

I agree it would not be easy. The funds would have to be given directly to the Palastinain families, not to a Palastinian agency on their behalf. If we can register people to vote in Afghanistan, we can register them to vote and recieve their family stipend in Palastine.

One thing I think we can agree upon - for there to be a meaningful peace between Israel and the Palastinians Arafat needs to go. If necessary, we should have him killed and make it look like it was an "inside" job.

Sharon needs to go too.

Yes I understand what the Palastinians want. What I am saying is what I think would work. They really don't even have to admit to giving up their desired goal of "right of return", the simple financial pressure caused by loosing funds directly out of their pockets when acts of terrorism are commited by Palastinians against Israel would be enough to curb such attacks and quickly (within a few years) end them. Over time the Arabs would give up on the idea of reclaiming the land in Israel proper, as long as they are given reasonable access to religious sights and given a reasonable hope for a decent life. As it is now, they have very little to loose, and such people are always dangerous.

As far as a fair land policy, that is simple. Stop the grossly unfair policy that Israel currently employs. Currently, on the west bank, if non-Israelis wish to claim land, it takes 5 years. At any time during this 5 years, an Israeli can file a claim and take the land within 3 months, even if it is occupied by Arabs who have a claim that is almost 5 years old. What happens all too often is the Arabs find water and build a well, and if it does not go dry within about 3 years, it is claimed by Israeli settlers and the Arabs are forced to abandon it. This is patently unfair. Israel should stop making any claims to land on the West bank, but regaurdless of that, they need to stop stealing the water supply - water is life, especially in that region.

Wade.

You're ignoring what I said. I hate having to repeat myself, so PAY ATTENTION:

Palestine, May 31, 2003, (IPC Exclusive)- - 95.4 % of respondents affirmed their clutching to the Right to return along together with the compensations while 4.6% opposed. Meanwhile 91% affirmed their strong opposition to the principle of compensation in exchange of ceding their Right to Return, 84 % refused the establishment of a Palestinian state in trade of giving up their Right to Return, while 11 % in favor.

NINETEEN out of TWENTY Palestinians consider the right to return tantamount to peace with Isreal.

NINE out of TEN consider any compensation we might offer in exchange for giving up this right an unsatisfactory arrangement.

Again, I find your proposal simply out of touch with the demands of the people as stated from this poll.


Those numbers factually illustrate that no matter how much money or land Israel offers to Palestinians they will remain steadfast in their solemn duty as Muslims to destroy what their religion and culture is unable to coexist with.

The Palestinians are simply a tool for all of Islam to conduct war upon Liberal Democracy, in this case one consisting of longstandings enemies of Muslims, the Jews. They are the oldest refugees to date, when others would have long moved on, the Arab world keeps them as outcasts for the sole purpose of waging their continuous war on Israel.

Palestinians will never accept peace until Israel is destroyed, unless it is THEY that change, along with the rest of the Arab world. That is the reality.

 

[wade]

You're ignoring what I said. I hate having to repeat myself, so PAY ATTENTION:

NINETEEN out of TWENTY Palestinians consider the right to return tantamount to peace with Isreal.

NINE out of TEN consider any compensation we might offer in exchange for giving up this right an unsatisfactory arrangement.

Again, I find your proposal simply out of touch with the demands of the people as stated from this poll.


Those numbers factually illustrate that no matter how much money or land Israel offers to Palestinians they will remain steadfast in their solemn duty as Muslims to destroy what their religion and culture is unable to coexist with.

The Palestinians are simply a tool for all of Islam to conduct war upon Liberal Democracy, in this case one consisting of longstandings enemies of Muslims, the Jews. They are the oldest refugees to date, when others would have long moved on, the Arab world keeps them as outcasts for the sole purpose of waging their continuous war on Israel.

Palestinians will never accept peace until Israel is destroyed, unless it is THEY that change, along with the rest of the Arab world. That is the reality.

I understand that argument Comrade, I simply do not believe it will prove true. I believe in the end, their pocketbooks will dictate their actions. If they are recieving, lets say, $150 a month and for every Israeli killed they loose $2 and for every Israeli wounded they loose $1 per month for a year, those $'s going to the families of the victims, they will protect their own self interest and turn in suspected terrorists before they act. Even if only 30% of the Palastinians do so, that would be enough.

I'm suggesting that THIS IS HOW WE CAN MAKE THEM CHANGE! The stick has not worked, but the carrot will.

Wade.