Defending Darwin

PoliticalChic

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Oct 6, 2008
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I've had some fun toying with the fanatics who cling to the theory of Darwinian evolution like a Titanic life raft....I got them to attack, and show their ignorance [and dishonesty?] by their claiming empirical evidence for the theory exists.

Any who suggest weakness in the theory of evolution can expect to be referred to thusly: "... the uni-brow/paste-eater/low thinkers..."
Of course, that analysis comes from a uni-brow/paste-eater/low thinker.




Let me suggest two reasons for the attacks.
One, fear of having to defend a heterodox viewpoint.....that would require actual thought.
And two, not having the science acumen to understand what the theory is, and is based on.




1. Evolution is not the cyclical change within a gene pool, i.e., the moth population in England darkened, and then lightened due to pollution of the Industrial Revolution.
I know, you learned that it was in high school biology....but it is a misnomer. That is not what Darwin was calling evolution.

2. Darwinian evolution is successive change, from one species into another, due to the accumulation of alterations due to random mutations. These are tiny changes, and each makes the organism better suited to survive, i.e., natural selection.

a. Steven J. Gould, paleontologist, evolutionary biologist, and historian of science, reported:
"In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and fully formed." (Natural History, 86:12-16)





3. So, this is where an honest defense of Darwin begins. While the liars and the fanatic religion haters.....you know who you are....outright lie and claim that the problem of missing fossil evidence is present...it is not....or that pointing out this flaw makes one anti-science, or irrational,....it does not..... we should begin by accepting the truth.
Darwin did.


a. As the above-labeled folks seem unable, it seems that I have to handle both sides of the debate. Not that I'm not up to it.....OK...begin by pointing out that the greatest scientist of the era, Louis Agassiz of Harvard, decried Darwin's theory.

4. Paleontologist Louis Agassiz knew the fossil record better than any man alive.
"He recognized that the problem with Darwinism was not the survival of the fittest, but rather the arrival of the fittest. Agassiz knew, as did most all animal and plant breeders both then and today, that clear limits exist to variation and no known way exists to go beyond these limits in spite of 4,000 years of trying. .... all mutations known to us cannot even begin to produce the variety required for molecules to mankind evolution, but rather they create 'monstrosities, and the occurrence of these, under disturbing influences, are…only additional evidence of the fixity of species. '" So saith Agassiz.
Louis Agassiz: Anti-Darwinist Harvard Paleontology Professor

a. Generally, this is where the first attack begins: Agassiz was deeply religious. But, if this is a reason to throw out his science expertise, it is the same basis for tossing an atheist-scientist's viewpoint.

While he was religious, historian Neal Gillespie writes that Agassiz "was second to no man in his opposition to sectarian religious interference with science."
Neal C. Gillespie, "Charles Darwin and the Problem of Creation," p. 51.




5. OK....let's support Darwin already!

Rather than attacking Agassiz's credibility...actually, it is unassailable....accept it, and point out that science itself has moved away from his viewpoint. In several threads, it was obvious that proponents of Darwinian evolution were stymied every time they were prompted to show fossils that documented the theory, they did everything they could to obfuscate.

6. But, even without evidence, Darwin's theory is, today, largely accepted.
The reason is a change in the philosophy of science.
First, many eminent scientists agreed with Darwin, that just because we haven't found the evidence doesn't mean it doesn't...or didn't exist. This was the position of Joseph Hooker, Thomas Huxley, Ernst Haeckel, Asa Gray and others.
The theory itself seemed just too eloquent to pass up.
'Logic,' rather than fossil proof, won the day over evidence.





7. The philosophical turn was this: by the late 19th century, whether based on the growing child's demand to 'let me do it myself,' or the Enlightenment's desire to replace God with science, "it increasingly excluded appeals to divine action or divine ideas as a way of explaining phenomena in the natural world....According to [methodological naturalism], ...all features of the natural world can be explained by material causes without recourses to purposive intelligence, mind, or conscious agency."
Stephen C, Meyer, "Darwin's Doubt," p. 19.

a. So, proponents wag their finger and lecture, one must accept this new iteration of science if one is willing to accept all the benefits it provides because it has 'searched out strictly material causes for previously mysterious features...' Ibid.


b.So, here we have the scientists' mantra: one cannot look anywhere but to material provenance. If we agree to that.....Darwin becomes our god.

“We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs,” the geneticist Richard Lewontin remarked equably in The New York Review of Books, “in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories.” We are to put up with science’s unsubstantiated just-so stories because, Lewontin explains, “we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door!”




So....that's why Darwin is ahead on points. There is no disputing the benefits that science has provided...and 'we don't need no stinkin' fossils!'

And based on this view, or definition of science......

...Darwin cannot be disputed!
 
Oh my. The Harun Yahya groupie has been scouring more phony "quotes".
 
Oh my. The Harun Yahya groupie has been scouring more phony "quotes".




So that none mistake you for an inveterate liar....

...could you identify any 'phony "quotes"' that you refer to in the OP?

So that none mistake you for anything but a goofy cut and paster...


..... provide the exact full citation and source for your "quotes".
 
Oh my. The Harun Yahya groupie has been scouring more phony "quotes".




So that none mistake you for an inveterate liar....

...could you identify any 'phony "quotes"' that you refer to in the OP?

So that none mistake you for anything but a goofy cut and paster...


..... provide the exact full citation and source for your "quotes".




So....in fact.....there are no "'phony' quotes"?


You've branded yourself exactly as I suggested.



Now that I've given you your science lesson.....


...here is your English lesson:


in·vet·er·ate
inˈvetərit/Submit
adjective
1.
having a particular habit, activity, or interest that is long-established and unlikely to change.



Just wanted it to be clear that lying is your modus operandi.
 
So that none mistake you for an inveterate liar....

...could you identify any 'phony "quotes"' that you refer to in the OP?

So that none mistake you for anything but a goofy cut and paster...


..... provide the exact full citation and source for your "quotes".




So....in fact.....there are no "'phony' quotes"?


You've branded yourself exactly as I suggested.



Now that I've given you your science lesson.....


...here is your English lesson:


in·vet·er·ate
inˈvetərit/Submit
adjective
1.
having a particular habit, activity, or interest that is long-established and unlikely to change.



Just wanted it to be clear that lying is your modus operandi.


So..... in fact:......



You cannot and will not provide the exact citation and reference for the "quotes" you cut and pasted.





You're a phony.





Look up the definition.





You didn't listen when I instructed you to PM me with your "quotes" prior to posting so I could advise you on their phony sources.





How sad for you. You're an accomplice to Harun Yahya's promotion of lies.
 
So that none mistake you for anything but a goofy cut and paster...


..... provide the exact full citation and source for your "quotes".




So....in fact.....there are no "'phony' quotes"?


You've branded yourself exactly as I suggested.



Now that I've given you your science lesson.....


...here is your English lesson:


in·vet·er·ate
inˈvetərit/Submit
adjective
1.
having a particular habit, activity, or interest that is long-established and unlikely to change.



Just wanted it to be clear that lying is your modus operandi.


So..... in fact:......



You cannot and will not provide the exact citation and reference for the "quotes" you cut and pasted.





You're a phony.





Look up the definition.





You didn't listen when I instructed you to PM me with your "quotes" prior to posting so I could advise you on their phony sources.





How sad for you. You're an accomplice to Harun Yahya's promotion of lies.






I'm sure that, had you the ability, you'd address the OP directly.
Since you have not, you've had to resort to your usual mode: lying.

Be certain to come back as soon as you feel you can add to the discussion.


Until such time, we'll stipulate that everything in the OP is factual.
 
So....in fact.....there are no "'phony' quotes"?


You've branded yourself exactly as I suggested.



Now that I've given you your science lesson.....


...here is your English lesson:


in·vet·er·ate
inˈvetərit/Submit
adjective
1.
having a particular habit, activity, or interest that is long-established and unlikely to change.



Just wanted it to be clear that lying is your modus operandi.


So..... in fact:......



You cannot and will not provide the exact citation and reference for the "quotes" you cut and pasted.





You're a phony.





Look up the definition.





You didn't listen when I instructed you to PM me with your "quotes" prior to posting so I could advise you on their phony sources.





How sad for you. You're an accomplice to Harun Yahya's promotion of lies.






I'm sure that, had you the ability, you'd address the OP directly.
Since you have not, you've had to resort to your usual mode: lying.

Be certain to come back as soon as you feel you can add to the discussion.


Until such time, we'll stipulate that everything in the OP is factual.

Your mindless cut and paste from Harun Yahya is hardly factual.



The edited, parsed and out of context "quotes" are typical, coming from religious extremists.




Your refusal to provide the exact citations is, for you, understandable in that you have been exposed as a fraud previously for your cut and paste lies.
 
So..... in fact:......



You cannot and will not provide the exact citation and reference for the "quotes" you cut and pasted.





You're a phony.





Look up the definition.





You didn't listen when I instructed you to PM me with your "quotes" prior to posting so I could advise you on their phony sources.





How sad for you. You're an accomplice to Harun Yahya's promotion of lies.






I'm sure that, had you the ability, you'd address the OP directly.
Since you have not, you've had to resort to your usual mode: lying.

Be certain to come back as soon as you feel you can add to the discussion.


Until such time, we'll stipulate that everything in the OP is factual.

Your mindless cut and paste from Harun Yahya is hardly factual.



The edited, parsed and out of context "quotes" are typical, coming from religious extremists.




Your refusal to provide the exact citations is, for you, understandable in that you have been exposed as a fraud previously for your cut and paste lies.




You've been identified as an inveterate liar, and been dismissed.

Be certain to come back as soon as you feel you can add to the discussion.
 
Last edited:
I'm sure that, had you the ability, you'd address the OP directly.
Since you have not, you've had to resort to your usual mode: lying.

Be certain to come back as soon as you feel you can add to the discussion.


Until such time, we'll stipulate that everything in the OP is factual.

Your mindless cut and paste from Harun Yahya is hardly factual.



The edited, parsed and out of context "quotes" are typical, coming from religious extremists.




Your refusal to provide the exact citations is, for you, understandable in that you have been exposed as a fraud previously for your cut and paste lies.




You've been identified as an inveterate liar, and been dismissed.

Be certain to come back as soon as you feel you can add to the discussion.

Oh my.


You're angry and reactive.


What a shame your sleazy "quote- mining" is again exposed as fraudulent.



So where those exact citations?



You don't have them because you did nothing but cut and paste from Harun Yahya.
 
Even Darwin was not sure;

.This summer will make the 20th year (!) since I opened my first note-book, on what way do species & varieties differ from each other...I am now preparing my work for publication...do not suppose I shall go to press for two years...I have slowly adopted a distinct & tangible idea,– whether true or false others must judge"
Letter to Alfred Russel Wallace, a naturalist working in Borneo, 1857

I do agree that the theory lacked scientific research, but at the period even the idea of science was in the early stages and theories were minimal at most using only observation as a means test of use for a hypothesis.
Why does it have so much influence in today's scientific institutions? Possibly because it was an anti-clerical movement that is still alive for the explanation of the origins of species?
Many scientist, even with today's abilities in research and testing still want a finite definable answer that is not religious based. Do we know? No. The Bible still has questionable, conflicting passages which tend more to confuse than clarify and thus it tends to fall back upon the acceptance through faith and not empiracle evidence.
Darwin also rushed his theory because of health and outside pressure from the Young Guard of naturalist.

Darwin wrote to Gray saying that after 19 years of work on the question of whether species "have descended from other species, like varieties from one species" and "that species arise like our domestic varieties with much extinction", he had "come to the heteredox conclusion that there are no such things as independently created species – that species are only strongly defined varieties. I know that this will make you despise me. – I do not much underrate the many huge difficulties on this view, but yet it seems to me to explain too much, otherwise inexplicable, to be false."[6] An intrigued Gray admitted to his own notion that there was some law or power inherent in plants making varieties appear, and asked if Darwin was finding this law.[7] Realising that Gray had not grasped what he was suggesting, Darwin sent him a letter on 5 September 1857 outlining the difficulties involved. He enclosed a brief but detailed abstract of his ideas on natural selection and divergence, copied out by the schoolmaster to make it more legible.[8][9]

Gray responded, questioning his use of the term "natural selection" as an agent. In his reply Darwin said that he had to use this shorthand to save incessantly having to expand it into a formula such as "the tendency to the preservation (owing to the severe struggle for life to which all organic beings at some time or generation are exposed) of any the slightest variation in any part, which is of the slightest use or favourable to the life of the individual which has thus varied; together with the tendency to its inheritance". He asked Gray to maintain secrecy.[10] The young guard of naturalists were now putting the "mode of creation" openly on the agenda, even in addresses to the Geological Society, but Darwin wanted his case to be fully prepared
Publication of Darwin's theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would like to further my dissertation(ha!), but I must provide dinner for my son and then it's off to choir practice. Post you later.
 
Your mindless cut and paste from Harun Yahya is hardly factual.



The edited, parsed and out of context "quotes" are typical, coming from religious extremists.




Your refusal to provide the exact citations is, for you, understandable in that you have been exposed as a fraud previously for your cut and paste lies.




You've been identified as an inveterate liar, and been dismissed.

Be certain to come back as soon as you feel you can add to the discussion.

Oh my.


You're angry and reactive.


What a shame your sleazy "quote- mining" is again exposed as fraudulent.



So where those exact citations?



You don't have them because you did nothing but cut and paste from Harun Yahya.



You lied....you claimed there were 'phony' quotes....but had to admit that none were phony.


You've been dissed and dismissed.

I know you're lonely....but be gone until you can post honestly.
 
Even Darwin was not sure;

.This summer will make the 20th year (!) since I opened my first note-book, on what way do species & varieties differ from each other...I am now preparing my work for publication...do not suppose I shall go to press for two years...I have slowly adopted a distinct & tangible idea,– whether true or false others must judge"
Letter to Alfred Russel Wallace, a naturalist working in Borneo, 1857

I do agree that the theory lacked scientific research, but at the period even the idea of science was in the early stages and theories were minimal at most using only observation as a means test of use for a hypothesis.
Why does it have so much influence in today's scientific institutions? Possibly because it was an anti-clerical movement that is still alive for the explanation of the origins of species?
Many scientist, even with today's abilities in research and testing still want a finite definable answer that is not religious based. Do we know? No. The Bible still has questionable, conflicting passages which tend more to confuse than clarify and thus it tends to fall back upon the acceptance through faith and not empiracle evidence.
Darwin also rushed his theory because of health and outside pressure from the Young Guard of naturalist.

Darwin wrote to Gray saying that after 19 years of work on the question of whether species "have descended from other species, like varieties from one species" and "that species arise like our domestic varieties with much extinction", he had "come to the heteredox conclusion that there are no such things as independently created species – that species are only strongly defined varieties. I know that this will make you despise me. – I do not much underrate the many huge difficulties on this view, but yet it seems to me to explain too much, otherwise inexplicable, to be false."[6] An intrigued Gray admitted to his own notion that there was some law or power inherent in plants making varieties appear, and asked if Darwin was finding this law.[7] Realising that Gray had not grasped what he was suggesting, Darwin sent him a letter on 5 September 1857 outlining the difficulties involved. He enclosed a brief but detailed abstract of his ideas on natural selection and divergence, copied out by the schoolmaster to make it more legible.[8][9]

Gray responded, questioning his use of the term "natural selection" as an agent. In his reply Darwin said that he had to use this shorthand to save incessantly having to expand it into a formula such as "the tendency to the preservation (owing to the severe struggle for life to which all organic beings at some time or generation are exposed) of any the slightest variation in any part, which is of the slightest use or favourable to the life of the individual which has thus varied; together with the tendency to its inheritance". He asked Gray to maintain secrecy.[10] The young guard of naturalists were now putting the "mode of creation" openly on the agenda, even in addresses to the Geological Society, but Darwin wanted his case to be fully prepared
Publication of Darwin's theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would like to further my dissertation(ha!), but I must provide dinner for my son and then it's off to choir practice. Post you later.



"Why does it have so much influence in today's scientific institutions? Possibly because it was an anti-clerical movement....."

Pretty astute of you.


Let me go a bit further than you have, and suggest something that I've been hinting at....the real import of Darwinism....

....materialism.

1. In an intellectual sense, the wonders of science revealed during the Enlightenment had the same effect on many. Add the violence directed at the clergy as well as the monarchy, and one has the making of secularism. So infatuated with the fall-out from the Enlightenment, possibility that science might be able explain and/or control the universe, that a desire was generalized, that the same mechanical laws could be applied to human beings.



2. “Auguste Comte argued that humanity progressed in three stages and that in the final stage mankind would throw off Christianity and replace it with a new “religion of humanity,” which married religious fervor to science and reason- even to the extent of making “saints” out of such figures as Shakespeare, Dante and Frederick the Great.” Charles Forcey, “The Crossroads of Liberalism,” p. 15


3. It was but a short leap to a mechanized view of human beings: evolution. Herbert Spencer was the most influential popularizer of evolution in 19th century America. Actually, it was Spencer who developed a theory of evolution before Darwin and is credited with coining the phrase ‘the survival of the fittest'. He saw the process everywhere, not only in nature…but in human society as well. Spencer embraces other materialist thinkers, such as Marx and Nietzsche.
Herbert Spencer: Social Darwinist or Libertarian Prophet?, by Peter Richards


4. “Just as Darwin discovered the law of evolution in organic nature, so Marx discovered the law of evolution in human history.” We should recognise that Marx, like Darwin, carried on from the work of people before him, and again, like Darwin, there were other people working more or less on the same lines. It is not true that Marx and Engels formulated the MCH [Materialist Conception of History] in a vacuum. "
The Materialist Conception of History
 


Do you know what the word "exactly" means?

Your OP pokes holes in the theory of evolution and disputes claims made by those who support it.

Have you tried defending Creationism with the same enthusiasm?

1. No, I poke no holes in Darwin's theory.
He recognized that he had no fossil proof for his theory....

"To the question why we do not find rich fossiliferous deposits belonging to these assumed earliest periods prior to the Cambrian system I can give no satisfactory answer . . . Nevertheless, the difficulty of assigning any good reason for the absence of vast piles of strata rich in fossils beneath the Cambrian system is very great."
Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, chapter Ten: On the Imperfection of the Geologic Record: On the Sudden Appearance of Groups of Allied Species in the lowest known Fossiliferous Strata.pp. 164



2. "...disputes claims made by those who support it."

Only the ones that aren't true. As you see above, Darwin agreed that the fossil evidence wasn't there....and still isn't.

"And let us dispose of a common misconception. The complete transmutation of even one animal species into a different species has never been directly observed either in the laboratory or in the field." Dean H. Kenyon (Professor of Biology, San Francisco State University), affidavit presented to the U.S. Supreme Court, No. 85-1513, Brief of Appellants, prepared under the direction of William J. Guste, Jr., Attorney General of the State of Louisiana, October 1985, p. A-16.


3. What the OP explains is that Darwinism is largely accepted as true based on a kind of science that replaces physical proof with consensus.
The same is true of anthropogenic (i.e., human-induced) climate change.
The theory of natural selection is a working hypothesis based on said consensus, and requiring, as a basic tenet, that no supernatural explanation be considered.

If you consider that statement an attack, please explain why.


There is no mention of intelligent design or creationism in the OP.
You brought it up.
 

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