Death to the Middle Class

[Bern80]

Why do people quote specific parts of people's posts and then talk about something else entirely. YOU made the statement that YOU do all the work, clearly you have responsibilities, and YOU also assume the the executives basically do nothing.

The problem is you have never put yourself in an owners shoes. You've never looked at things from their prespective. Pretend you own and operate a business for one second. Your business consists of you and your one employee that you need to operate the business. Now pretend your one employee says he wants a raise. You and said employee at some point agreed you would pay him x amount to do some job. So naturally you ask said employee 'Why are you asking me for a raise'? He says to you 'because I need a cost of living adjustment'. Let that sink in for a minute. You are the primary investor in your business, you cover all the expenses of operating your business essentially out of your own pocket. You can't exactly afford to be throwing money around for no good reason. Yet here you have your employee asking you to incur additional expenses at zero benefit to you or the business.

It's just a concept you don't grasp I guess. If you have incured more responsibilities without be duely compensated that's one thing. But to cite your bills or a cost of living adjustment and actually have the balls to tell your employer that is why you need a raise is asanine. Your employer or any employer enters a contract with you when you are hired that essentially states we will pay you this do do this. When you agreed to be hired you agreed to those terms. There is NOTHING in that contract that says part of this agreement is for your employer to essentailly pay for your shit regardless of what you do or don't do.

YOU are not getting it. My boss' boss sits back and reads the paper all day and goes to meetings. I do all the dirty work. He is not the owner. The "owner" is in Japan. Why does my boss deserve a raise and a bonus but those under him doing the actual dirty work do not? I am not referring to people who OWN their own business, and never have I in all these posts. Good god... can you comprehend anything you read???

If you really are so busy doing all the time how is it you also have all this time to monitor what your boss is doing? I can't comprehend what you don't tell me. And really what this boils to it appears as a beef with your perceived to be lazy boss and you projecting on to how you think the rest of the world is. It isn't. And I doubt your boss does nothing. This is a global recesson. No owner of a business is going to keep dead weight around, especially in this economy.

I comprehend quite well. It wasn't me who quoted some snipet out of a post then proceeded to write something that had nothing to do with it.

 

[Bern80]

If you thought you were go to become wealthy working hard FOR someone you are a buffoon.

Many people get rich working for someone else. CEO's and other top executives work "for" someone and they make millions. They don't own the companies that they head. If they did, they might be more careful with their decisions for the direction of the company and play less golf. Hello AIG and Bear Stearns, Enron and WorldCom

He's referring to "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" thinking. Entrepreneurs succeed the quickest usually. BUT, they also have the higher failure rate. Like all things in business, skill and hard work matter probably the most, but regardless of how much you put in that, without timing, luck and networking... you're probably toast.

Then you should read a bit more Rich Dad, Poor Dad. The author of that series doesn't buy into luck when it comes to investing in anything, whether that be stocks or your business. Another lesson in those books is that investing in the hopes that your business or stock or whatever will be successful isn't really investing. That's called gambling. The philosophy he subscribes is more along the lines of Warren Buffet. He said, using a sports metaphor, that investing is the only sport where you never have to swing. You never have to give your money to anyone or put it into any endeavor until everything is absolutely perfect. Which is why he is as wealthy as he is. He just had a good eye for knowing what was going to be successful.

 

[rightwinger]

Many people get rich working for someone else. CEO's and other top executives work "for" someone and they make millions. They don't own the companies that they head. If they did, they might be more careful with their decisions for the direction of the company and play less golf. Hello AIG and Bear Stearns, Enron and WorldCom

He's referring to "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" thinking. Entrepreneurs succeed the quickest usually. BUT, they also have the higher failure rate. Like all things in business, skill and hard work matter probably the most, but regardless of how much you put in that, without timing, luck and networking... you're probably toast.

Then you should read a bit more Rich Dad, Poor Dad. The author of that series doesn't buy into luck when it comes to investing in anything, whether that be stocks or your business. Another lesson in those books is that investing in the hopes that your business or stock or whatever will be successful isn't really investing. That's called gambling. The philosophy he subscribes is more along the lines of Warren Buffet. He said, using a sports metaphor, that investing is the only sport where you never have to swing. You never have to give your money to anyone or put it into any endeavor until everything is absolutely perfect. Which is why he is as wealthy as he is. He just had a good eye for knowing what was going to be successful.

The super wealthy don't get rich by taking risks. They get rich by making sure there is no risk.

 

[rdean]

This is a very enlightening graphic. The USA has a very balanced distribution of income. The death of the "middle class" is populist hyperbole, nothing more. Not happy about it? Move to Sweden!

We are not seeing the same thing. The USA has a very "balanced" distritution? How do you figure, with fingers and toes?
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10
11
eyes
fingers
toes

 

[Againsheila]

We in this country have screwed ourselves. Please let me explain. There was a time in this country when Mama stayed home and looked after the kids and did the household things that were necessary for harmony within the family. Dad was the one who went to work and earned the living that supported his family. There were no credit cards. If there was something that you wanted, you saved up the money for it and when you had the money saved, you bought whatever it was that you wanted. There was peace and harmony within the American family. Somewhere along the way, that picture changed. All of a sudden, Mom entered the work force and both parents were working. Nobody home watching the kids. They were either old enough to tend to themselves or somebody else watched them while Mom went to work. Suddenly the family had two incomes and twice the spending power. Along came credit cards and people began to live outside of their means. With the advent of credit cards, a person could live a higher lifestyle and have more "toys" and not have to save up to make the purchases that supported the new lifestyle. All was well because Mom was working, there was two incomes and more cash flow. Then people began to live outside of their means. Bigger fancier houses were purchased. Much finer cars. Fantasy vacations. You name it. The middle class American began to live the high life and in doing so, eventually was not easily able to make ends meet any longer. Where there was once peace and harmony within the family unit, now there was financial conflict. Bigger salaries were demanded from employers. Unions fought for bigger and bigger benefits and salaries for their members until things like the collapse of the car industry came about because of greed. We destroyed ourselves financially. It isn't that companies don't pay a fair wage for the work that is produced. It is because people demand to live on a lifestyle plateau that is far about their ability to earn the income to support it and we blame other people for not living within our means. In my humble opinion, this is one of the biggest problems in America today. It's called greed.

Wrong, but nice try. First of all some women have been working outside the home since the dawn of time....In the 60's less than 20% of women worked and they made 80% of a man's salary in the 70's, more women went to work, thanks to so called "women's lib". 60% of women worked and they made less than 60% of a man's salary. Did you know that in the 60's the average nurse made 1/5 of a doctor's salary? Today they don't even make 1/20th of a doctor's salary but I'm sure you have an excuse for that too.

In the late 70's, early 80's, because so many households had two incomes, housing prices doubled, why not? They had a two family income they could get more for houses. Then, the recession of the 80's hit. Suddenly people were stuck with mortgages built for two incomes that couldn't be sustained on one income.

As for credit cards, by the early 90's credit card companies were giving credit cards to college students, even highschool students......they were getting the in debt fast. Of course, their pay had gone down, proportionately so they couldn't live the way their parents did at that age so they started charging to maintain their lifestyle and that's what got us into trouble. As income goes down and credit goes up, sooner or later the sh*t has to hit the fan. Trust me, we haven't hit bottom yet. The early 2000's brought us homeloans with no down payments or qualifications. That was a false boom to keep our economy going as long as possible. That led to the housing slump.

People who don't have jobs can't pay mortgages. Shipping our jobs overseas and then just telling us to "get another one" is stupid. They aren't out there. Plus, just to insure that pay for the middle and lower class has stagnated or gone down, our government increased immigration, both legal and illegal. Americans have been having less than replacement value children. That means that the lower incomes should be going up. But they aren't, because our government is bringing in more people as fast as they can to keep those wages low and recent immigrants have an average of 7.5 kids per family.

Of course this uses up our resources faster and faster and will put us in even bigger trouble. By 2016 it's estimated that my state will run out of water. I live in the Pacific Northwest and we ship water to California, what's gonna happen when that stops?

Our government has messed us up so bad, I'm not even sure we can ever recover. The USA is dead, long live Cascadia.

 

[Bern80]

He's referring to "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" thinking. Entrepreneurs succeed the quickest usually. BUT, they also have the higher failure rate. Like all things in business, skill and hard work matter probably the most, but regardless of how much you put in that, without timing, luck and networking... you're probably toast.

Then you should read a bit more Rich Dad, Poor Dad. The author of that series doesn't buy into luck when it comes to investing in anything, whether that be stocks or your business. Another lesson in those books is that investing in the hopes that your business or stock or whatever will be successful isn't really investing. That's called gambling. The philosophy he subscribes is more along the lines of Warren Buffet. He said, using a sports metaphor, that investing is the only sport where you never have to swing. You never have to give your money to anyone or put it into any endeavor until everything is absolutely perfect. Which is why he is as wealthy as he is. He just had a good eye for knowing what was going to be successful.

The super wealthy don't get rich by taking risks. They get rich by making sure there is no risk.

Uh yeah... I guess that's a less wordy way of saying it.

 

[manu1959]

if you are middle class how much money should you make.....

 

[Zander]

This is a very enlightening graphic. The USA has a very balanced distribution of income. The death of the "middle class" is populist hyperbole, nothing more. Not happy about it? Move to Sweden!

We are not seeing the same thing. The USA has a very "balanced" distritution? How do you figure, with fingers and toes?
2
10
11
eyes
fingers
toes

The US is above the median in income distribution. I think that is balanced. If you disagree you are free to vote with your feet, move to Sweden! Everyone makes just about the same income after taxes, it's a socialist paradise!!


PS- I know you like to insult people, maybe you think it is cute. It isn't cute. What it is rdean, is a sign that you cannot intelligently comment on the topic.

 

[Toro]

The US is above the median in income distribution. I think that is balanced.

I'm really not sure if we should comparing ourselves to Zambia and Bangladesh though.

If you compare us to the developed countries, we are below average.

 

[Bern80]

if you are middle class how much money should you make.....

Good question. A good rule of thumb I've always heard is that your mortgage should be no more than a third of your income. So what's a middle class house? In MN anyway, I would say 250k - 300k. Assuming decent credit, 20% down, 5% interest on a home that costs 300k, monthly payment would be about 1300. Times three is 4900, call it 5k. Times 12 months is 60,000. Given other factors like children I would say a middle class income would be any where from 50k a year to maybe 120k.

 

[Bern80]

The US is above the median in income distribution. I think that is balanced.

I'm really not sure if we should comparing ourselves to Zambia and Bangladesh though.

If you compare us to the developed countries, we are below average.

Honestly I don't think it means anything without knowing the factors invovled in it. I'll say it over and over this income distribution thing as far more factors than people are willing to admit to. It is more than just the odd boss screwing his underlings out of a raise.

It has a lot to do with societal evolution. How our culture and atitudes have changed. Maybe it is true that people are working more for less, though I still have doubts. What I do know is that something else has changed about our mentality. We think we DESERVE more for less.

 

[Toro]

The US is above the median in income distribution. I think that is balanced.

I'm really not sure if we should comparing ourselves to Zambia and Bangladesh though.

If you compare us to the developed countries, we are below average.

Honestly I don't think it means anything without knowing the factors invovled in it. I'll say it over and over this income distribution thing as far more factors than people are willing to admit to. It is more than just the odd boss screwing his underlings out of a raise.

It has a lot to do with societal evolution. How our culture and atitudes have changed. Maybe it is true that people are working more for less, though I still have doubts. What I do know is that something else has changed about our mentality. We think we DESERVE more for less.

Generally, America has a greater income disparity than most other developed nations. The question is whether or not it matters?

To some extent, it does. Generally, social progress occurs when the entire nation is progressing, not just a few. When everyone is advancing, there is less reason for people to be resentful towards others since everyone is sharing in the prosperity. Likewise, when only a few are advancing and everyone else is stagnating or declining, social progress tends to stop or regress as the have-nots look for scapegoats.

However, America is somewhat different than most other developed nations as there is a more individualistic mindset here whereas most nations elsewhere in the western world put more emphasis on social cohesion. There is less resentment towards the wealthy and those who have made it in America than elsewhere. That is a good thing IMHO. American conservatives would argue otherwise, but my guess is that most of those American conservatives haven't spent much time outside the nation's borders.

 

[Bern80]

I'm really not sure if we should comparing ourselves to Zambia and Bangladesh though.

If you compare us to the developed countries, we are below average.

Honestly I don't think it means anything without knowing the factors invovled in it. I'll say it over and over this income distribution thing as far more factors than people are willing to admit to. It is more than just the odd boss screwing his underlings out of a raise.

It has a lot to do with societal evolution. How our culture and atitudes have changed. Maybe it is true that people are working more for less, though I still have doubts. What I do know is that something else has changed about our mentality. We think we DESERVE more for less.

Generally, America has a greater income disparity than most other developed nations. The question is whether or not it matters?

To some extent, it does. Generally, social progress occurs when the entire nation is progressing, not just a few. When everyone is advancing, there is less reason for people to be resentful towards others since everyone is sharing in the prosperity. Likewise, when only a few are advancing and everyone else is stagnating or declining, social progress tends to stop or regress as the have-nots look for scapegoats.

But I think that mindset you talk about below and what I was referring to are the very reasons people in this country don't think the middle class is progressing. Somone here posted the list of things that are considered common for the poor to have according to the Department of labor I believe. Those are things that that only the middle class had 40-50 years ago.

However, America is somewhat different than most other developed nations as there is a more individualistic mindset here whereas most nations elsewhere in the western world put more emphasis on social cohesion. There is less resentment towards the wealthy and those who have made it in America than elsewhere. That is a good thing IMHO. American conservatives would argue otherwise, but my guess is that most of those American conservatives haven't spent much time outside the nation's borders.

Agreed in that I would find it hard to believe that the middle class and poor of other countries complain even more about their wealthy than people here do. But true, I haven't done a lot of traveling.

 

[Againsheila]

This is a very enlightening graphic. The USA has a very balanced distribution of income. The death of the "middle class" is populist hyperbole, nothing more. Not happy about it? Move to Sweden!

We are not seeing the same thing. The USA has a very "balanced" distritution? How do you figure, with fingers and toes?
2
10
11
eyes
fingers
toes

The US is above the median in income distribution. I think that is balanced. If you disagree you are free to vote with your feet, move to Sweden! Everyone makes just about the same income after taxes, it's a socialist paradise!!


PS- I know you like to insult people, maybe you think it is cute. It isn't cute. What it is rdean, is a sign that you cannot intelligently comment on the topic.

No, we are not free to vote with out feet. I keep telling people that but they don't seem to understand. While our government doesn't force us to stay here, they allow millions upon millions of immigrants in, which we have to compete for jobs with, and send more of our jobs overseas, and we are not allowed to follow our jobs. Those countries won't take Americans unless they already have money, ie, the wealthy. I can't just cross over the border to Mexico and if I tried I would be shot.

We are left with fighting with our votes here, and eventually, because of the two most corrupt parities in our history, with our guns.

 

[Zander]

The US is above the median in income distribution. I think that is balanced.

I'm really not sure if we should comparing ourselves to Zambia and Bangladesh though.

If you compare us to the developed countries, we are below average.

I think you have a point, but like you said in another post - does it really matter? I think there are other factors that are far more significant than Income Distribution. I would rather have the opportunity to earn higher income than be taxed to equality like they do in Sweden et. al. I prefer opportunity to security.

That being said, I think Sweden is a fascinating country. I visited the Fjords about 25 years ago on a winter cruise, breathtakingly beautiful!

An anecdotal story:
I have an acquaintance who lives in Upsala (spelling?) Sweden. He is a great person - artistic, very sensitive, cares about the environment, he's a real "liberal" who believes strongly in "economic justice" and other such nonsense. When it comes to work however, he is real bum. He has worked for a grand total of 6 months since he first moved from Germany to Sweden over 7 years ago. He is a Swedish citizen by marriage, his wife shares his disdain for regular employment. They get free medical, a free apartment, free education (ostensibly to "re-train" for another job), and a welfare check every month. Who pays for this? The taxpayers of Sweden. They tax the wealthy to pay for the bums. Smart? I don't think so. BTW, He is depressed, and getting worse every day that he sits on his ever expanding ass. The Swedes are paying for him to receive therapy for his depression. He is now thinking of moving back to Germany. Why? His benefits are finally running out!! I know some people here think that sounds great, I think it sounds horrible.

 

[Zander]

We are not seeing the same thing. The USA has a very "balanced" distritution? How do you figure, with fingers and toes?
2
10
11
eyes
fingers
toes

The US is above the median in income distribution. I think that is balanced. If you disagree you are free to vote with your feet, move to Sweden! Everyone makes just about the same income after taxes, it's a socialist paradise!!


PS- I know you like to insult people, maybe you think it is cute. It isn't cute. What it is rdean, is a sign that you cannot intelligently comment on the topic.

No, we are not free to vote with out feet. I keep telling people that but they don't seem to understand. While our government doesn't force us to stay here, they allow millions upon millions of immigrants in, which we have to compete for jobs with, and send more of our jobs overseas, and we are not allowed to follow our jobs. Those countries won't take Americans unless they already have money, ie, the wealthy. I can't just cross over the border to Mexico and if I tried I would be shot.

We are left with fighting with our votes here, and eventually, because of the two most corrupt parities in our history, with our guns.

I drove across the Mexican border a few weeks ago. I was not shot, I wasn't even stopped!

LOL - it easy to become a legal resident of mexico. Fill out a form, prove you have a $500 per month income, and you're done. Lots of Americans live in Mexico illegally as well....

 

[Againsheila]

The US is above the median in income distribution. I think that is balanced. If you disagree you are free to vote with your feet, move to Sweden! Everyone makes just about the same income after taxes, it's a socialist paradise!!


PS- I know you like to insult people, maybe you think it is cute. It isn't cute. What it is rdean, is a sign that you cannot intelligently comment on the topic.

No, we are not free to vote with out feet. I keep telling people that but they don't seem to understand. While our government doesn't force us to stay here, they allow millions upon millions of immigrants in, which we have to compete for jobs with, and send more of our jobs overseas, and we are not allowed to follow our jobs. Those countries won't take Americans unless they already have money, ie, the wealthy. I can't just cross over the border to Mexico and if I tried I would be shot.

We are left with fighting with our votes here, and eventually, because of the two most corrupt parities in our history, with our guns.

I drove across the Mexican border a few weeks ago. I was not shot, I wasn't even stopped!

LOL - it easy to become a legal resident of mexico. Fill out a form, prove you have a $500 per month income, and you're done. Lots of Americans live in Mexico illegally as well....

Actually, you also have to prove you have x amount of dollars in the bank that you can't touch until you leave the country..........and if you march in the street carrying an American flag, you are on the first plane home at YOUR expense.

Those Americans have paid bribes and if they step outside their gated communities, they are done for.....

 

[Againsheila]

The US is above the median in income distribution. I think that is balanced. If you disagree you are free to vote with your feet, move to Sweden! Everyone makes just about the same income after taxes, it's a socialist paradise!!


PS- I know you like to insult people, maybe you think it is cute. It isn't cute. What it is rdean, is a sign that you cannot intelligently comment on the topic.

No, we are not free to vote with out feet. I keep telling people that but they don't seem to understand. While our government doesn't force us to stay here, they allow millions upon millions of immigrants in, which we have to compete for jobs with, and send more of our jobs overseas, and we are not allowed to follow our jobs. Those countries won't take Americans unless they already have money, ie, the wealthy. I can't just cross over the border to Mexico and if I tried I would be shot.

We are left with fighting with our votes here, and eventually, because of the two most corrupt parities in our history, with our guns.

I drove across the Mexican border a few weeks ago. I was not shot, I wasn't even stopped!

LOL - it easy to become a legal resident of mexico. Fill out a form, prove you have a $500 per month income, and you're done. Lots of Americans live in Mexico illegally as well....

Are you Mexican? Last time I went across the border, we were searched at customs and then stopped 5 minutes on the other side by the cops for their "bribe".

 

[Zander]

No, we are not free to vote with out feet. I keep telling people that but they don't seem to understand. While our government doesn't force us to stay here, they allow millions upon millions of immigrants in, which we have to compete for jobs with, and send more of our jobs overseas, and we are not allowed to follow our jobs. Those countries won't take Americans unless they already have money, ie, the wealthy. I can't just cross over the border to Mexico and if I tried I would be shot.

We are left with fighting with our votes here, and eventually, because of the two most corrupt parities in our history, with our guns.

I drove across the Mexican border a few weeks ago. I was not shot, I wasn't even stopped!

LOL - it easy to become a legal resident of mexico. Fill out a form, prove you have a $500 per month income, and you're done. Lots of Americans live in Mexico illegally as well....

Are you Mexican? Last time I went across the border, we were searched at customs and then stopped 5 minutes on the other side by the cops for their "bribe".

No, I am a white guy.

Where do you cross? Some of the border towns are rougher than others. I go across at the San Ysidro/Tijuana Border crossing. I have crossed that border literally 400 times. I used to own a beach house in Rosarito Beach (about 35 mins south of the border) and went practically every weekend for 5 years. I have never been stopped. Never been asked a question. I was given a ticket in Ensenada once for rolling through a stop sign. I paid the "officer" $20 and went on my way.

In some of these Mexican border towns the "police" are unpaid. They collect what they can from tourists. There is corruption in Mexico (and everywhere eles) and you must be careful, but overall I have always felt very safe in Mexico.

When I retire I will probably buy (or rent) a house near Lake Chapala. Chapala has awesome weather (it is in the mountains so it has a very mild temperature) , low cost of living, lots of things to do, and a large American ex-pat community. You should check it out!

 

[Zander]

No, we are not free to vote with out feet. I keep telling people that but they don't seem to understand. While our government doesn't force us to stay here, they allow millions upon millions of immigrants in, which we have to compete for jobs with, and send more of our jobs overseas, and we are not allowed to follow our jobs. Those countries won't take Americans unless they already have money, ie, the wealthy. I can't just cross over the border to Mexico and if I tried I would be shot.

We are left with fighting with our votes here, and eventually, because of the two most corrupt parities in our history, with our guns.

I drove across the Mexican border a few weeks ago. I was not shot, I wasn't even stopped!

LOL - it easy to become a legal resident of mexico. Fill out a form, prove you have a $500 per month income, and you're done. Lots of Americans live in Mexico illegally as well....

Actually, you also have to prove you have x amount of dollars in the bank that you can't touch until you leave the country..........and if you march in the street carrying an American flag, you are on the first plane home at YOUR expense.

Those Americans have paid bribes and if they step outside their gated communities, they are done for.....

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.