Bull Ring Coyote Vs TNH

Discussion in 'The Bull Ring' started by TNHarley, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    Liberty & Equality
    Same or different?
    Coyote



    Let me start this off with the most basic breakdown I can think of.
    Liberty is basically the exercise of human rights in any manner a person wants, as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else.
    Equality is basically the status of being equal.
    So, in essence, how could liberty even exist without equality? Its not true liberty if one man can do something another cant, correct? Of course! There is absolutely NO value in liberty if equality is absent. Doesn't even exist.
    I think the two words are raped to the point of non existence anyways. Like racist. Equality isn't one race of people getting special rights other groups don't. Quit the opposite. You could attach some emotional spin to it, but it wont change the reality.. If one group gets special rights(inequality), liberty doesn't exist. Why? Because one man is able to do what he wants, while another man is constrained by the State.
     
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  2. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    For observers - a quick review of the rules. The debate is only between TN and myself (as per the rules of the Bullring) until the debate is finished in 3 days or sooner if we choose to close our argument.
    -----------------

    Liberty is defined as freedom: the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.

    Equality is defined as: the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities.

    The two can exist in the same society.
    Liberty can lead to greater equality.
    But they are not the same.

    For example, you can have a state where there is liberty - the law is equal but the society itself is not.

    Let's say there is a state called Blondonia. Liberty is prized and the laws are constructed to have the least amount of impact on personal liberty. Blondonian citizens are free to hire or fire whom they choose, to serve whom they choose in their establishments, accept in their schools and sell or rent housing too. No Blondonian will ever be forced to go against his religious conscience and bake a cake for a same sex wedding! Now, while individual liberty is equal under law, Blondonian culture is not so equal. Red haired Blondonians are widely regarded as inferior, culturally backwards, and of low intelligence. Establishments frequently will not serve them, or serve them in seperate facilities. Institutions of higher learning rarely admit red heads, and even when they do - it's a dye job. Certain jobs are closed to redheads (they aren't considered capable). Realters won't sell to red heads in prime areas. Disneyland sports a sign saying "No shirts, No shoes, No redheads". You have liberty - each person is free to make choices, in their lives, in their business' - the law guarantees that for everyone in Blondonia. But is there equality?

    Likewise you can have equality without liberty. Some of the most repressive communist societies have an enforced "equality" but very little liberty.
     
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  3. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    Liberty is not freedom. Freedom would mean I could do what I want. If it destroys your life, your loss. While talking about liberty, if it destroys your life, in return, the law could destroy me. Because I did not have the right to do that.

    Society being able to choose what it wants to do is liberty in itself. Obviously, as long as it doesn't interfere with someone else. Unless you are talking about institutional discrimination, which is an ENTIRELY different matter.
    Your example is a great one. For MY argument :D
    A person not being able to choose who they sell their private property to is not equality.. You may see it as equality, but if you consider the actual definition, it is the opposite. (that's where my "emotional spin" came into play in the OP). You would basically be choosing the redheads rights over everyone elses rights.
    "your liberty ends at my nose"
    A person getting told "no" to a product or service does not infringe on their liberty. I have never understood that "logic". Especially since the redhead has the EQUAL option of telling people "no."
    Social equality is a completely different matter. That is Marxist terminology used to attack liberty and capitalism. Social equality and equality are not the same thing. Trying to hijack a decent concept like they did "liberal"
     
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  4. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    That's a good distinction, and I agree - it also fits with the definition I used: the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.

    We may be running into problems with the definition then. My definition of equality is social equality. Because liberty is also defined within a social construct - so is equality.

    If a person is not being able to choose who they sell their private property to it is not liberty.

    It can be equality if the law or rule is applied equally - in other words, they can't discriminate based on hair color - thus all hair colors are treated equally. (now bald people...that might be an issue..:p .). Now if they were told they MUST sell to red heads, that is not equality.
     
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  5. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    Social equality is a Marxist term like todays version of liberal. Social equality can only be done by institutional discrimination. There is no way around it. SOMEONE is getting oppressed. Im sorry, but that's not equality. That's an emotional stigma.

    It can be equality if the law or rule is applied equally - in other words, they can't discriminate based on hair color - thus all hair colors are treated equally.
    You might have a point if we were discussing the fallacy of social equality. But we aren't.
    All hair colors are treated equally. They all have the option to tell people no. Someone saying no to someone has absolutely nothing to do with liberty/equality.
    Social equality is nothing more than forced conformity, institutional discrimination and/or involuntary servitude. Its not about equality. If it was, you wouldn't want to be FORCING people to go against their will to appease someone else. Its a circle of stupidity. Or greed. However you want to look at it.
    Equality has absolutely nothing to do with ones feelings.

    Now if they were told they MUST sell to red heads, that is not equality.
    Kinda throwing me for a loop on that one. Doesn't seem consistent.
     
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  6. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    Some of the most repressive communist societies have an enforced "equality" but very little liberty.
    I think that everyone equally being suppressed isn't very fair lol. Especially since it wasn't ACTUALLY equality. Much like those totalitarians claimed communism when all they were were socialist dictators.
     
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  7. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    I don't regard social equality as a "fallacy" and, it is the definition of equality that I use.

    How is equality meaningful outside of a social sense? It isn't. How is liberty meaningful outside of a social sense? It isn't. You're defining it solely on the equal ability to say "no".

    Liberty is when people can act and speak freely - equality is being equal in rights and opportunities. If a person is granted certain liberties, that does not mean the person is given equality.

    What is the difference between liberty and equality?
    In America, as long as what a person says does doesn't offend, take away rights from or harm another person, the person is given liberty. This is one of the core values of the country. Equality is another core value that is meant to give every person in the country the same opportunities as every one else. Everyone should have the right to participate in the political process, enjoy economic success and generally live fulfilling lives.

    An example of liberty is journalism. For good or bad, as long as a journalist doesn't make libelous or slanderous comments designed to hurt a person or group of people, the journalist can utilize freedom of the press and talk about whatever he or she wants.

    An example of equality is the ability to attend school. Everyone, regardless of their financial or ethnic background, has the ability to obtain an education. A school cannot discriminate against anyone who can perform the steps necessary to gain admittance and better themselves through education.


    Gotta run, but I'll be back on later :)
     
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  8. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    How is equality meaningful outside of a social sense? It isn't. How is liberty meaningful outside of a social sense? It isn't.
    Well yeah, if there was one person, liberty or equality wouldn't be an issue lol..

    If a person is granted certain liberties, that does not mean the person is given equality.
    I know. Liberty and equality cant be measured on a scale of one person. It doesn't even apply. Read your first paragraph lol..

    Everyone should have the right to participate in the political process, enjoy economic success and generally live fulfilling lives.
    Yep, that's liberty/equality :D
    An example of equality is the ability to attend school. Everyone, regardless of their financial or ethnic background, has the ability to obtain an education. A school cannot discriminate against anyone who can perform the steps necessary to gain admittance and better themselves through education.
    Ok and how is that not liberty?
    If this person got to go to school, but I didn't and I want to, that would be infringing on my liberty with something that is supposed to be granted to everyone..
    I also notice you seem stuck on "social equality" but keep equating institutional discrimination with it.
    Social equality derives from society. Not from the government. Unless you are ok with the government shoving institutional discrimination down our throats.. That's the ONLY WAY the government can implement "social equality". AKA totalitarianism.
    Society doesn't give you equality or liberty. The State does. If there is no state, the concepts we are discussing wouldn't even matter. Except for social equality when society battles society.
    Again, its all a big circle of stupidity.
    Liberty IS equality. Doesn't even exist without it.
     
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  9. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    BTW, subjectiveness shouldn't qualify in this.
    My definition of equality is social equality
    Doesn't matter what your definition is. We are going by fact.
    Social equality is a relatively new concept created by people that wanted the govt to dictate an individuals liberty. Trying to ruin the "your liberty ends at my nose".. basically making it mean "your liberty ends at my nose but my liberty ends wherever the hek I say it does."
     
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  10. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    I'm not being subjective here.

    I went to the dictionary for the definitions of equality and liberty - it makes it difficult to debate if we aren't on the same page there.

    The dictionary definitions were in my first post:
    Liberty is defined as freedom: the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.

    Equality is defined as: the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities.

    So that is what I'm aguing from.
     
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