Bull Ring Coyote Vs TNH

Discussion in 'The Bull Ring' started by TNHarley, Feb 17, 2017.

  1. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    In reality - yes, that was how it ended up, just like in societies with great degrees of freedom you still don't have total equality - but I think we're talking more on the theoretical then how it ended up really working in the human societies. The thing is - if everyone is repressed the same, then within that group they are equal.
     
  2. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    No, im not. My liberty ends at your nose.
    Its not liberty when I can go around and burn peoples houses down and not have to worry about the state locking me up.
    No they cant. Voting is a civil liberty.
     
  3. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    When, in history, has an entire Nation been repressed equally?
     
  4. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    The state can grant or repress liberty. The state can also effect equality. But equality is a function of both the state and the society. I'm not justifying conformity - but inforced equality can force conformity (Soviet State for example). Another example of equality without liberty.

    My equality does have something to do with how you treat me if you are in a position to effect my rights.

    Here's another example of how liberty and equality are two different things: Civil Rights and Affirmative Action

    The Civil war ended slavery and emancipated African Americans: Liberty.
    But was there real equality? No.

    Because they brought in a series of laws - Jim Crowe - based on the concept of "seperate but equal".

    The Civil Rights Movement struck down a series of old laws that segregated educational institutions, social institutions, and obstructed voting rights.

    But was there equality? No. People could be denied employment and education on the basis of race, gender, ethnicity - not merit.

    In reaction to the inequality that persisted we created Affirmative Action which stipulated quotas for special groups. People could be hired or admitted to higher education on the basis of race, gender, ethnicity - not merit.

    But did we achieve equality? No. We just changed around the groups.

    But in the all of the above we different degrees of liberty and equality culminating in Affirmative Action, where we had the same liberty we all share but still not equality.

    And also questions - theortetically - is "seperate but equal" equality? If the laws are the same to both groups...do they have either liberty or equality

    Liberty and equality intersect - liberty can lead to greater equality - but the two terms are distinct..
     
  5. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    No, equality isn't given by society. Marxist spin.
    My equality does have something to do with how you treat me if you are in a position to effect my rights.
    What right could I possibly take from you?
    If you think simply ending slavery gave blacks liberty, you are wholly mistaken.
     
  6. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Liberty can can exist independent of rights - a completely lawless society with no state structure for example.

    Definitions - again (dictionary, not made up) - Rights and Civil Liberties overlap, but I see voting as more of a Rght then a Civil Liberty.

    Liberty: the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.
    Equality: the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities
    Rights: a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way
    Civil Liberties: the state of being subject only to laws established for the good of the community, especially with regard to freedom of action and speech. Individual rights protected by law from unjust governmental or other interference.
     
  7. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    A completely lawless society is Anarchy. There is a huge difference.
    Liberty involves the rights of everyone equally. Meaning if I come and pu8nch you in the face, I am not showing liberty. Its more like freedom to punch you in the face. "Everybody" is the KEY to liberty. Not "I".
     
  8. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    It absolutely is and it's nothing to do with Marxism.
    Equality is as much a product of society as state.
    And my example with ending slavery illustrates that. Because who enforced inequality? Society. Who pushed for the seperate but equal laws? Society. Who continued the practices when laws were upended? Society.
     
  9. TNHarley
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    TNHarley Diamond Member

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    No it isn't! Society has NOTHING to do with the granting of equality.
    the oppression against blacks was done by the federal govt. They institutionalized discrimination. Not giving a black person a job because they are black has nothing to do with equality. Nothing. You can SPIN it to where it does, but it still doesn't.
    Equality doesn't stem from society. If we didn't have a state, equality(the term) wouldn't exist because we would have anarchy.
    I have absolutely NO POWER in taking away your equality. NONE
     
  10. Coyote
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    Coyote Varmint Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Are you saying liberty involves a mutual respect of everyone's rights?

    Wikipedia defines liberty - in a philosophical sense - in this way:
    Liberty, in philosophy, involves free will as contrasted with determinism.[1] In politics, liberty consists of the social and political freedoms to which all community members are entitled.[2] In theology, liberty is freedom from the effects of "sin, spiritual servitude, [or] worldly ties."[3]

    Generally, liberty is distinctly differentiated from freedom in that freedom is primarily, if not exclusively, the ability to do as one wills and what one has the power to do; whereas liberty concerns the absence of arbitrary restraints and takes into account the rights of all involved. As such, the exercise of liberty is subject to capability and limited by the rights of others

    Is this how you are defining liberty?

    You still aren't going to necessarily have equality though. What you'll have is that your actions are constrained by the rights of others which might or might not lead to equality.
     

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