Zone1 Conservative American Evangelicals are taking this country to task

[NotfooledbyW]

Clyde_154220825-#178 “all those who were responsible for the actual content of the US Constitution used the commonly accepted moral guidance and ethical viewpoint and standards of acceptable behaviors that were derived from English Common Law which drew from the established princples drew frontier on the Holy Bible and the God of both the Hebrew nation and Christian Nation....”

NFBW: Is it possible Clyde 154 for you to engage in this discussion in a scholarly, factual and rational way. Can you avoid generalizations such as “all those who were responsible for the actual content of the US Constitution used …. “THE HOLY BIBLE.

You have no way to know Clyde 154 that James Madison used the Holy Bible to become the Father of the CONSTITUTION and Bill of Rights. If you cannot know that how in the hell can you honestly defend your baseless point that “ “all those who were responsible for the actual content of the US Constitution used the commonly accepted moral guidance and ethical viewpoint and standards of acceptable behaviors that were derived from English Common Law which drew from the established princples [found in] the Holy Bible.

James Madison shares history on the same highly educated and European Enlightenment level with Jefferson and Adam’s and Washington and Franklin and Paine and Ethan Allen, none of whom expressed their belief that the Hebrew/Christian Bible was Holy or that it was the actual and only the Word of God speaking directly to humankind.

All those highly educated peers of Madison held religious liberty in higher regard than religiosity if we read what the thought about the subject.

So can we start with Madison with the quotes that follow.

Separation of Church and State​

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries. [James Madison, 1803? Origin questionable}

Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject.

Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together; [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

t may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others. [James Madison, in a letter to Rev Jasper Adams spring 1832, from James Madison on Religious Liberty, edited by Robert S. Alley, pp. 237-238]

It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a religious establishment; and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if not supported by the legal provision for its clergy. The experience of Virginia conspicuously corroborates the disproof of both opinions. The Civil Government, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE. [James Madison, as quoted in Robert L. Maddox: Separation of Church and State; Guarantor of Religious Freedom]

Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history [attempts where religious bodies had already tried to encroach on the government]. [James Madison, Detached Memoranda, 1820]

Religious Persecution and Ill Effects​

That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some; and to their eternal infamy, the clergy can furnish their quota of impas for such business..." [James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr., January 1774]

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?

The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity. [James Madison, Letter to F.L. Schaeffer, Dec 3, 1821]

We hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth that religion, or the duty which we owe our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence. The religion, then, of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man: and that it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. [James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance to the Assembly of Virginia]

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect. [James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1,1774, as quoted by Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco:Harper & Row, 1987, p. 37]

Ecclesiastical Establishments​

Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects. [James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr., Jauary 1774]

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not. [Pres. James Madison,A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]

Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. [James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance,addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]

Religious Freedom​

...Freedom arises from the multiplicity of sects, which prevades America and which is the best and only security for religious liberty in any society. For where there is such a variety of sects, there cannot be a majority of any one sect to oppress and persecute the rest. [James Madison, spoken at the Virginia convention on ratifying the Constitution, June 1778]

Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offense against God, not against man:To God, therefore, not to man, must an account of it be rendered. [James Madison, according to Leonard W. Levy, Treason Against God: A History of the Offense of Blasphemy, New York: Schocken Books, 1981, p. xii.]

(15) Because finally, the equal right of every citizen to the free exercise of his religion according to the dictates of conscience is held by the same tenure with all our other rights. If we recur to its origin, it is equally the gift of nature; if we weigh its importance, it cannot be less dear to us; if we consult the Declaration of Rights which pertain to the good people of Virginia, as the basic and foundation of government, it is enumerated with equal solemnity, or rather studied emphasis. [James Madison, Section 15 of A Memorial and Remonstrance, June 20, 1785, frequently misquoted to imply religion as the basis of gov't]

Cline, Austin. "Top James Madison Quotes on Religion." Learn Religions, Sep. 16, 2021, learnreligions.com/top-james-madison-quotes-on-religion-4072173.

END2208260731

 

[GMCGeneral]

NFBW: The Constitution is a secular document. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion, Moses and the Ten Commandments, or William Blackstone’s dead encyclopedia of the King’s laws. The US Constitution was a living document produced by enlightened humans to organize flawed and fallible human beings into governing themselves in as much freedom conscience for individuals as much as humanly possible. A humanists gram come true. END2208260032

Free Exercise Clause / government may not penalize or discriminate against an individual or a group of individuals because of their religious views nor may it compel persons to affirm any particular beliefs

,

Ahh yes. The " living" document bullshit. The US Constitution is ironclad and the ONLY two ways to change it are an Article V convention or by amendment.

 

[GMCGeneral]

The problem with these secularists is they want Christians to shut up. Got news for you. Not going to happen
Real Biblical faith is a very public faith. We are called to go forth and make disciples. Even Christ Himself warned against hiding our light under a basket.

 

[Clyde 154]

Clyde_154220825-#178 “all those who were responsible for the actual content of the US Constitution used the commonly accepted moral guidance and ethical viewpoint and standards of acceptable behaviors that were derived from English Common Law which drew from the established princples drew frontier on the Holy Bible and the God of both the Hebrew nation and Christian Nation....”

NFBW: Is it possible Clyde 154 for you to engage in this discussion in a scholarly, factual and rational way. Can you avoid generalizations such as “all those who were responsible for the actual content of the US Constitution used …. “THE HOLY BIBLE.

You have no way to know Clyde 154 that James Madison used the Holy Bible to become the Father of the CONSTITUTION and Bill of Rights. If you cannot know that how in the hell can you honestly defend your baseless point that “ “all those who were responsible for the actual content of the US Constitution used the commonly accepted moral guidance and ethical viewpoint and standards of acceptable behaviors that were derived from English Common Law which drew from the established princples [found in] the Holy Bible.

James Madison shares history on the same highly educated and European Enlightenment level with Jefferson and Adam’s and Washington and Franklin and Paine and Ethan Allen, none of whom expressed their belief that the Hebrew/Christian Bible was Holy or that it was the actual and only the Word of God speaking directly to humankind.

All those highly educated peers of Madison held religious liberty in higher regard than religiosity if we read what the thought about the subject.

So can we start with Madison with the quotes that follow.

Separation of Church and State​

Religious Persecution and Ill Effects​

Ecclesiastical Establishments​

Religious Freedom​

Cline, Austin. "Top James Madison Quotes on Religion." Learn Religions, Sep. 16, 2021, learnreligions.com/top-james-madison-quotes-on-religion-4072173.

END2208260731

So..........you can't present the text in the US Constitution that errects a wall stopping people from having a free exercise of religion, and you deflect by parroting personal information rather than constitutional text?

You can copy and paste all the propaganda from the left you wish.........but it will not make a Wall magically appear in the US CONSTITUTION. The langauge will still exist, "And Congress shall make no law, prohibiting the free exercise "OF" religion".

The information I presented was to prove a point........there are 2 sides to every coin, you can't take a head and make a tail of it. There is just as much personal history of the founding fathers that demonstrates the source of American jurisprudence.........Blackstone.

And everytime you present a supposed quote from someone you.......give it a twist that takes away the contextual integrity.......just like you presented a history from Madison and attempted to declare he was saying one thing when the context proves he was declaring the opposite........keeping BIG BROTHER out of the church building.....you would have it that Madison erecrted a make believe wall that stopped the people from exercising their rights in public.......when the opposite is true, he was keeping Big Brother away from MAKING LAW that STOPPED FREE EXERCISE.

Again.......a "mistranslation" by parroting from those who hate this nation proves nothing. Just like Jefferson.........any founding father that addresses a supposed separation of church and state is doing so by making a guarantee that a government of the people, by the people and for the people.........would errect a wall not to stop THE PEOPLE from having Freedom of Religion as guaranteed in the 1st amendment, but there would be a wall errected that stopped government from making any law that "prohibited" the free exercise there of.........as stated in the 1st amendment........."And Congress shall make NO LAW......forbiding the free exercise thereof......"

Note that Madison is referencing the conditions that existed in Europe that caused an exodus from Europe to the New World......that condition........STATE CONTROLLED RELGION, the RCC controlled most of Europe from the Vatican. He called such a condition...."And old error.........." and there was a need to make sure that such would not take place in the US.

The entire existence of the 1st amendment is one that guarantees that such a condition never exists in the United States...........as per the Letter addressing Religious Freedom by Jefferson....etc.

Now you are parroting misinformation from those who would take the rights of the PEOPLE back to the middle ages and declare the STATE has the right to take away your religious freedom and put in its place a mandate of Human Secularism........as is found in a constitutional format only in one place.........a USSSR constitution from a socialist nation......You demand the right that DC become the modern Rome.......in telling people how, who, what and when they can serve God and the religion of their choice.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

So..........you can't present the text in the US Constitution that errects a wall stopping people from having a free exercise of religion

NDBW: I never have and will never ever present a text in the US Constitution that erects a wall stopping people from having a free exercise religion or no religion at all. I have no idea what the hell you are writing about. It doesn’t exist in the US Constitution. Is that clear?

Here is Madison’s preferred text of the first amendment free exercise clause That he presented during the constitutional convention

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext infringed”

NFBW: I agree without a minuscule of doubt and/or objection to the words James Madison put in writing there. No finer words have been written in defense of liberty and freedom of conscience. There is no that errects a wall stopping people from having a free exercise of religion in the Constitution thanks mostly to the work of Madison Jefferson Washington and Franklin’s enlightened educations and opposition to dogmatically revealed religion such as your version of Bible Worshipping Trump Jesus White Man Christianity espoused by you. END2208261116

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Real Biblical faith is a very public faith.

Go for it - nothing is stopping you -

NFBW: do you bow your heads and pray with your family when seated at a table in McDonalds getting ready to eat your Big Mac and Happy meals. I’ve been observing Americans in restaurants for over forty years and only one time in all that time have I seen it happen but once. I have seen a family of four pray before eating a meal in public once in forty years . WTF are you whining about you sad Christian victim? With all the millions of professed Christians in this country I would think I’d see it quite often. I thought it was a nice thing, and I don’t know why more Christian people don’t do it.

Now if you run for public offices pushing a law requiring me to pray in a public restaurant you can’t - you will be stopped .

END2208261131

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The problem with these secularists is they want Christians to shut up

NFBW: I do not want Christians to shut up. It would be nice if Trump’s hillbilly Christian’s could think before they speak though. END2208261148

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The problem with these secularists is they want Christians to shut up.

NFBW: Au Contraire! I love that black Christian’s, half of Catholic Christians and my ever lovin white liberal Christians and American Jews rose up in November 2020 to defeat the HOLY Maralago religious leader of the Trump white hillbilly Christian’s from the White House. GOD Bless the wonderful patriotic multicultural Christians for saving America from the scourge of hillbilly Christianity and election deniers. END2207261203

 

[Red Front]

Ahh yes. The " living" document bullshit. The US Constitution is ironclad and the ONLY two ways to change it are an Article V convention or by amendment.

...or revolution.

 

[bodecea]

Jefferson was the only one who didn't make his Christian belief public. All of the other founding fathers were devout Christians.

Franklin? Adams? You've been groomed.

 

[bodecea]

I like Christian nationalists. Secular Marxists on the other hand, should be given free helicopter rides.

And here we have it, folks. If I recall, you are fond of fascism too.

 

[presonorek]

They sound just like the Taliban or ISIS.

Both the Taliban and the other islamic extremist group are theocracies.

That christian group wants to spit on the very constitution this country was founded on and turn it into a theocracy.

Yeah. I think evangelical Christians should merge with Islamic radicals politically. They have a lot of similar goals. Outlawing alcohol, outlawing pornography, demanding dress codes for women, and even their view on homosexuals are aligned. If they could put aside their religious differences and focus on their political agenda they could establish a semi-theocratic government in the United States.

 

[bodecea]

.

Funny you should say that ... Population Reduction is one of the tenants of Marxism.

.​

And, apparently fascist christian nationalism too.

 

[BlackSand]

And, apparently fascist christian nationalism too.

.

I believe the somewhat Christian Nationalist in this thread was more than willing to add that he was not necessarily in favor of Population Reduction ...
Just that he didn't have a problem watching other people kill themselves and each other, and letting God sort everything out.

Sorry ... That was my mistake ... And you didn't have to make it yours too.
Better yet, do a better job of thinking up your own misconceptions, and quit thinking you can coat-tail off my overzealous assumptions.

.​

 

[GMCGeneral]

NFBW: Au Contraire! I love that black Christian’s, half of Catholic Christians and my ever lovin white liberal Christians and American Jews rose up in November 2020 to defeat the HOLY Maralago religious leader of the Trump white hillbilly Christian’s from the White House. GOD Bless the wonderful patriotic multicultural Christians for saving America from the scourge of hillbilly Christianity and election deniers. END2207261203

They are the ones who are wrong for electing a baby killing DemocRAT. They will be judged harshly by G-d unless they repent.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

They are the ones who are wrong for electing a baby killing DemocRAT.

NFBW: have you brought charges along with the parents of the specific baby and location you suspect Joe Biden killed. If yiu have not filed charges you are a liar as so many Trump Guns n Jesus hillbilly Christian’s are
End2208261332

 

[NotfooledbyW]

They will be judged harshly by G-d unless they repent.

Real Biblical faith is a very public faith. We are called to go forth and make disciples.

NFBW: It’s no wonder sales of Trump guns n Jesus hillbilly Christianity memberships are down because normal folks are not buying the judgmental angry god that you Trump hillbillies are selling. END2208261345

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The United States of America was founded upon the the principle of FREEDOM "OF" RELIGION..........not freedom "FROM" religion.

Why can’t you make me accept your Trumpy white guns n Jesus hillbilly religion since you think your hillbilly religion will pruduce best outcome for civil society then , if I have no right to freedom from religion?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

it documented the fact that your were ignorant of the fact that Jesus Christ was indeed addressed in the US Constitution when you stated "ABSOLUTELY not".

the founding document... ..ABSOLUTELY: without question....has nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So Clyde where in the US constitution is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

My birth certificate has the year of our lord exact date of birth that I became a viable human being on planet earth. The documents has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ or the religion named after him. It is a fact that billions of human beings have been born and recorded on the Gregorian calendar who grow up absolutely divorced from caring about the story that Jesus Christ somehow rose up and floated in the sky after being pronounced dead during one of the millions of years ttat the earth goes around the sun.

Let’s start a new calendar when the last human being dies because of a religion.

Insgine no religion Nothing to kill and due for. John Lenin

 

[GMCGeneral]

NFBW: It’s no wonder sales of Trump guns n Jesus hillbilly Christianity memberships are down because normal folks are not buying the judgmental angry god that you Trump hillbillies are selling. END2208261345

Normal folks accept that all mankind is evil and depraved. And that G-d's wrath is justified.