'Conservatism Understood' Another in a series of Midcan's insights into contemporary

midcan5

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Jun 4, 2007
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Another in a series of Midcan's insights into contemporary America.

I have always been fascinated by the modern day American conservative. When I grew up the word had none of the meaning it has today. The reactionary nature of conservative thought and activity is a given, but I am still amazed that an ideology that has no consistent core ideas can have such influence and also hold together so odd an assortment of apostles. It seemed to me for a long time that its only power lay in its oppositional force to change. Without liberalism conservatism would have to stand on its own legs, what would those legs consist of? George W. Bush was a conservative until he became president, then by some conservative magic he ceased to be what he claimed to be. Could it be he was just what he was, and then given power the legs just weren't up to the task? I'm sure he's still a conservative even as his revision goes on in the world of contemporary spin. Soon he will be canonized.

I was listening to Herman Cain at CPAC, and I have to admit seeing a Black man prattle on so vehemently about what we have lost or are in fear of losing just bewilders me. I'm old enough to remember separate facilities and the sixties riots. He didn't look like a spring chicken, but I guess he missed something I failed to miss like extreme prejudice and privilege. Most still miss this one. When 'Dreams' are under attack we're all in trouble. Whose dreams, I wonder? Dreams are hazy things, the CPAC crowd cheered this hazy observation. Picture in your mind that bucolic past we have lost. I'm sure most prefer the modern day. Corey Robin writes, "Onstage, the conservative waxes Byronic, moodily surveying the sum of his losses before an audience of the lovelorn and the starstruck. Offstage, and out of sight, his managers quietly compile the sum of their gains." It is this 'lost' utopia that haunts the conservative today and galvanizes their opposition to any and all change. It is this dream world, that never was, that motivates the apostles of an imaginary past. Conservatives are like children longing for the comfort of some fairy tale world.

"A consideration of this deeper strain of conservatism [a lost world] gives us a clearer sense of what conservatism is about. While conservatism is an ideology of reaction — originally against the French Revolution, more recently against the liberation movements of the sixties and seventies — the nature and dynamics of that reaction have not been well understood." When losing a democratic election brings such great cries of loss, doesn't anyone ever wonder what was lost? Or is loss just a trope?

Corey Robin quotations from: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/files/raritan-essay.pdf

Albert Hirschamn also covered this topic in his brilliant analysis of conservative reactionary politcs. The Rhetoric of Reaction - Albert O. Hirschman - Harvard University Press


"You start out in 1954 by saying, “******, ******, ******.” By 1968 you can’t say “******” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a by-product of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “******, ******.” Lee Atwater, Republican strategist Quoted in article above. And see my: http://www.usmessageboard.com/race-relations-racism/61091-life-in-a-parallel-universe.html
 
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Another fascinating point of view. 'When a Country Goes Insane'

by Robert Freeman

"This must be what it’s like when a country goes insane, when it falls down a rabbit hole and tries to pretend that everything is normal.

It can’t tell truths from lies. Hucksters pose as upright men, and people imagine they are Solons, avatars of insight come down from the ages. Sleazy operators pass themselves off as statesmen, as thinkers of deep gravitas, and the crowds, unable to distinguish sanctimony from sincerity, bravado from bullshit, lap it up.

Let’s be clear. It was the Republicans who wrecked the economy. Both their people and their policies drove the economy into the ditch. They wrecked the economy not once, but twice in the last eighty years.

So Republicans condescending to instruct Americans about how to fix the economy is like the captain of the Titanic lecturing shipping operators about safe procedures for navigating the north Atlantic. No sane society would tolerate it. But this one does." When a Country Goes Insane | Common Dreams
 
No consistant core ideas?

Seriously, you expect us to take your "analysis" seriously when you cant even see the obvious?
 
It can’t tell truths from lies. Hucksters pose as upright men, and people imagine they are Solons, avatars of insight come down from the ages. Sleazy operators pass themselves off as statesmen, as thinkers of deep gravitas, and the crowds, unable to distinguish sanctimony from sincerity, bravado from bullshit, lap it up

The essence of Obama.

Hilarious.
 
Another fascinating point of view. 'When a Country Goes Insane'

by Robert Freeman

"This must be what it’s like when a country goes insane, when it falls down a rabbit hole and tries to pretend that everything is normal.

It can’t tell truths from lies. Hucksters pose as upright men, and people imagine they are Solons, avatars of insight come down from the ages. Sleazy operators pass themselves off as statesmen, as thinkers of deep gravitas, and the crowds, unable to distinguish sanctimony from sincerity, bravado from bullshit, lap it up.

Let’s be clear. It was the Republicans who wrecked the economy. Both their people and their policies drove the economy into the ditch. They wrecked the economy not once, but twice in the last eighty years.

So Republicans condescending to instruct Americans about how to fix the economy is like the captain of the Titanic lecturing shipping operators about safe procedures for navigating the north Atlantic. No sane society would tolerate it. But this one does." When a Country Goes Insane | Common Dreams
Good things you dickweeds don't project.....much. :rolleyes:
 
No consistant core ideas?

Seriously, you expect us to take your "analysis" seriously when you cant even see the obvious?

And they are?

Limited Federal Government
Living within our means
Providing individuals with freedom to succeed or fail without government interference
Following the Constitution of the United States
Federalism and the Separation of powers

Simple concepts.
 
No consistant core ideas?

Seriously, you expect us to take your "analysis" seriously when you cant even see the obvious?

And they are?

Limited Federal Government
Living within our means
Providing individuals with freedom to succeed or fail without government interference
Following the Constitution of the United States
Federalism and the Separation of powers

Simple concepts.

Very simple, thanks for the reply, now tell me a 'conservative' president who has followed these so called core tenets? And while I don't want to reply till I hear of that conservative, they are a bit too vague for use in the real world as each depends on lots of other facts, including what limits we are willing to set. Or even tell me a time in America when these were followed?
 
And they are?

Limited Federal Government
Living within our means
Providing individuals with freedom to succeed or fail without government interference
Following the Constitution of the United States
Federalism and the Separation of powers

Simple concepts.

Very simple, thanks for the reply, now tell me a 'conservative' president who has followed these so called core tenets? And while I don't want to reply till I hear of that conservative, they are a bit too vague for use in the real world as each depends on lots of other facts, including what limits we are willing to set. Or even tell me a time in America when these were followed?

Try this concept on for size.

No small government conservative has ever been president of the United States. Trying to claim otherwise is as ridiculous as the other side arguing that a died in the wool liberal has ever been president.
 
Try this concept on for size.

No small government conservative has ever been president of the United States. Trying to claim otherwise is as ridiculous as the other side arguing that a died in the wool liberal has ever been president.

I disagree, FDR, LBJ, and JFK were liberal. Dyed in wool is only an excuse to say they didn't do everything a liberal would do, that though is obvious, they could not as their power is constrained by our system, and in some cases by the times or the crazies. I also tentatively include Madison, Truman, and Eisenhower, but admit I don't know enough. Carter maybe too?
 
RadiomanATL's wise and substantive reply to my thread from some time ago was greatly appreciated. Sometimes when I go back and read something I have written I often feel I have moved on a bit, or would edit the piece slightly or radically. This piece is still OK and still works. Thanks R_man for bringing it back to life. I have a long piece I am working on now you'll surely enjoy as you did this. Thanks again.

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Your wish for no core values or ideas, as well as your other assumptions, are based in nothing but ignorance... it's like you are a 3 year old putting your fingers in your ears because you don't want to hear... it is easier for you to vilify when you make up stances for your opposition, and it is precisely what you and your winger influences do
 
And they are?

Limited Federal Government
Living within our means
Providing individuals with freedom to succeed or fail without government interference
Following the Constitution of the United States
Federalism and the Separation of powers

Simple concepts.

Very simple, thanks for the reply, now tell me a 'conservative' president who has followed these so called core tenets? And while I don't want to reply till I hear of that conservative, they are a bit too vague for use in the real world as each depends on lots of other facts, including what limits we are willing to set. Or even tell me a time in America when these were followed?

President Calvin Coolidge did.
 
Try this concept on for size.

No small government conservative has ever been president of the United States. Trying to claim otherwise is as ridiculous as the other side arguing that a died in the wool liberal has ever been president.

I disagree, FDR, LBJ, and JFK were liberal. Dyed in wool is only an excuse to say they didn't do everything a liberal would do, that though is obvious, they could not as their power is constrained by our system, and in some cases by the times or the crazies. I also tentatively include Madison, Truman, and Eisenhower, but admit I don't know enough. Carter maybe too?

Conservatie and liberal are rough places on a political spectrum. Defining them as a political ideology is a difficult thing because they are constantly changing. Essentially you're turning into a modern day Heraclitus except you are looking at one of the stages on the political spectrum and laughing at it.

I would suggest you describe them as collectivists and individualists. At least then you have an honest platform from which to debate. Of course you didn't start this thread to debate, you started this thread to lecture the "conservatives" about how because their ideology is not as well defined as you would like that they are ignorant.

Using your terminology, liberals are just as hopeless. Anyone who espouses either "conservative" or "liberal" is, in my humble opinion, an idiot. Think of the relationship between personal freedom and individual responsibility as a transaction. In order to have a degree of personal freedom you must purchase it with a corresponding ammount of individual responsibility. Of course this means that the reward for indivdiual responsibility is personal freedom. Conservatives and liberals, the way you seem to be using the terms, (I hate them, but I'll use them to keep with the argument... ) are both flawed in their view of the relationship between the two. Liberals seek personal freedom but they fall short in their ideology because they are, for the most part, unwilling to "purchase" that freedom with responsibility for their actions. Conservatives are just as inept. They preach the whole "individual responsibility" mantra but then they advocate personal freedom only to the degree that they are comfortable with.

The arguments that we're having are like arguing about the two sides of a coin. You must have both sides and the left and right just don't seem to get that.

Mike
 
Another in a series of Midcan's insights into contemporary America.

I have always been fascinated by the modern day American conservative. When I grew up the word had none of the meaning it has today. The reactionary nature of conservative thought and activity is a given, but I am still amazed that an ideology that has no consistent core ideas can have such influence and also hold together so odd an assortment of apostles. It seemed to me for a long time that its only power lay in its oppositional force to change. Without liberalism conservatism would have to stand on its own legs, what would those legs consist of? George W. Bush was a conservative until he became president, then by some conservative magic he ceased to be what he claimed to be. Could it be he was just what he was, and then given power the legs just weren't up to the task? I'm sure he's still a conservative even as his revision goes on in the world of contemporary spin. Soon he will be canonized.

I was listening to Herman Cain at CPAC, and I have to admit seeing a Black man prattle on so vehemently about what we have lost or are in fear of losing just bewilders me. I'm old enough to remember separate facilities and the sixties riots. He didn't look like a spring chicken, but I guess he missed something I failed to miss like extreme prejudice and privilege. Most still miss this one. When 'Dreams' are under attack we're all in trouble. Whose dreams, I wonder? Dreams are hazy things, the CPAC crowd cheered this hazy observation. Picture in your mind that bucolic past we have lost. I'm sure most prefer the modern day. Corey Robin writes, "Onstage, the conservative waxes Byronic, moodily surveying the sum of his losses before an audience of the lovelorn and the starstruck. Offstage, and out of sight, his managers quietly compile the sum of their gains." It is this 'lost' utopia that haunts the conservative today and galvanizes their opposition to any and all change. It is this dream world, that never was, that motivates the apostles of an imaginary past. Conservatives are like children longing for the comfort of some fairy tale world.

"A consideration of this deeper strain of conservatism [a lost world] gives us a clearer sense of what conservatism is about. While conservatism is an ideology of reaction — originally against the French Revolution, more recently against the liberation movements of the sixties and seventies — the nature and dynamics of that reaction have not been well understood." When losing a democratic election brings such great cries of loss, doesn't anyone ever wonder what was lost? Or is loss just a trope?

Corey Robin quotations from: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/files/raritan-essay.pdf

Albert Hirschamn also covered this topic in his brilliant analysis of conservative reactionary politcs. The Rhetoric of Reaction - Albert O. Hirschman - Harvard University Press


"You start out in 1954 by saying, “******, ******, ******.” By 1968 you can’t say “******” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a by-product of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “******, ******.” Lee Atwater, Republican strategist Quoted in article above. And see my: http://www.usmessageboard.com/race-relations-racism/61091-life-in-a-parallel-universe.html

progressives elitist statinst like midcan doesn't have a clue, but here's one you are a dying bread. The general public does not want nor does it desire to have your politics in America..
 
Another in a series of Midcan's insights into contemporary America.

I have always been fascinated by the modern day American conservative. When I grew up the word had none of the meaning it has today. The reactionary nature of conservative thought and activity is a given, but I am still amazed that an ideology that has no consistent core ideas can have such influence and also hold together so odd an assortment of apostles. It seemed to me for a long time that its only power lay in its oppositional force to change. Without liberalism conservatism would have to stand on its own legs, what would those legs consist of? George W. Bush was a conservative until he became president, then by some conservative magic he ceased to be what he claimed to be. Could it be he was just what he was, and then given power the legs just weren't up to the task? I'm sure he's still a conservative even as his revision goes on in the world of contemporary spin. Soon he will be canonized.

I was listening to Herman Cain at CPAC, and I have to admit seeing a Black man prattle on so vehemently about what we have lost or are in fear of losing just bewilders me. I'm old enough to remember separate facilities and the sixties riots. He didn't look like a spring chicken, but I guess he missed something I failed to miss like extreme prejudice and privilege. Most still miss this one. When 'Dreams' are under attack we're all in trouble. Whose dreams, I wonder? Dreams are hazy things, the CPAC crowd cheered this hazy observation. Picture in your mind that bucolic past we have lost. I'm sure most prefer the modern day. Corey Robin writes, "Onstage, the conservative waxes Byronic, moodily surveying the sum of his losses before an audience of the lovelorn and the starstruck. Offstage, and out of sight, his managers quietly compile the sum of their gains." It is this 'lost' utopia that haunts the conservative today and galvanizes their opposition to any and all change. It is this dream world, that never was, that motivates the apostles of an imaginary past. Conservatives are like children longing for the comfort of some fairy tale world.

"A consideration of this deeper strain of conservatism [a lost world] gives us a clearer sense of what conservatism is about. While conservatism is an ideology of reaction — originally against the French Revolution, more recently against the liberation movements of the sixties and seventies — the nature and dynamics of that reaction have not been well understood." When losing a democratic election brings such great cries of loss, doesn't anyone ever wonder what was lost? Or is loss just a trope?

Corey Robin quotations from: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/files/raritan-essay.pdf

Albert Hirschamn also covered this topic in his brilliant analysis of conservative reactionary politcs. The Rhetoric of Reaction - Albert O. Hirschman - Harvard University Press


"You start out in 1954 by saying, “******, ******, ******.” By 1968 you can’t say “******” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a by-product of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “******, ******.” Lee Atwater, Republican strategist Quoted in article above. And see my: http://www.usmessageboard.com/race-relations-racism/61091-life-in-a-parallel-universe.html
You just proved you are an idiot. With me race has nothing to do with it. I just hate socialism and stupidity, otherwise, I hate dimwits and liberalsim.
 

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