Confusion: The wording of the Second Amendment

Lakhota

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Jul 14, 2011
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One of the primary arguments of gun advocates in that the Second Amendment guarantees the right for citizens to own and carry guns. Their argument has been repeated so many times that many progressives or moderates parrot the same line. Then they offer arguments as to why there should be limitations on gun ownership, such as bans on assault weapons.

There are two problems with the Second Amendment. First, under any circumstance, it is confusing; something that an English teacher would mark up in red ink and tell the author to redo and clarify. Secondly, there are actually two versions of the Amendment; The first passed by two-thirds of the members of each house of Congress (the first step for ratifying a constitutional amendment). A different version passed by three-fourths of the states (the second step for ratifying a constitution amendment). The primary difference between the two versions are a capitalization and asimple comma.

The version passed by Congress is:
  • A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The version ratified by the states and authenticated by Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson reads:
  • A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
It’s difficult to determine the difference between having a capital M and a lower-case m in the word militia. Generally, a capital letter means a proper noun. In that case, the upper case M, as in the Congressional version, references a particular militia, that being the armed forces of the United States. The lower-case m in the second version would refer to a group of individuals who form an ad hoc army, most likely to oppose the armed forces of the United States. Therefore, it would be okay to keep and bear arms only as part of the official armed forces of the United States. This argument supports a limited version of the right to bear arms; only when serving in the official armed forces of the United States.

The comma in the first version (between the words Arms and shall) also changes the meaning of the amendment. The first version with the comma maintains the reference to the official armed forces of the United States. That is further evidence that the right to bear arms is limited to serving in the official military of the United States. The lack of a comma (between arms and shall) in the second version, implies that there is equality or parity between bearing arms for the official forces of the United States and for personal use of firearms. This supports the N.R.A. position on the Second Amendment. as does the lower case m.

The provision for passing an amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires ratification of the same language by two-thirds of the members of each house of Congress, and the legislatures of three-fourths of the states, as described in Article V of the Constitution. It states:


[shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress;]

But in the case of the Second Amendment, the language between the Congressional and state versions have different meanings.

What this does is to throw out either meaning of the Second Amendment. It puts the definition of the right to bear arms in the same category as other items not mentioned in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, such as the right to privacy, the right to reproductive freedom, the right to gay marriage.

Bearing arms is then a legislative issue. It may be that the policy desired by Congress, the states of the U.S., and most importantly the people, is to permit individuals to own assault weapons. It also may be to prohibit them. In any case, the decision should be made on wise policy, without constitutional reference to the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment should be null and void, because its ratification did not follow the prescribed method for passing an amendment. This makes it blatantly confusing.

As Fareed Zakaria pointed out in Time, “Congress passed the first set of federal laws regulating, licensing and taxing guns in 1934. The act was challenged and went to the U.S. Supreme Court in 1939. Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s solicitor general, Robert H. Jackson, said the Second Amendment grants people a right that ‘is not one which may be utilized for private purposes but only one which exists where the arms are borne in the militia or some other military organization provided for by law and intended for the protection of the state.’ The court agreed unanimously.”


Let’s continue (or start) the debate and discussion on gun ownership based on sound policy, rather than on the lame and unconstitutional elements of the Second Amendment.

Confusion -- the wording of the Second Amendment - by Arthur Lieber

There is no doubt that the 2nd Amendment is confusing and obsolete.
 
One of the primary arguments of gun advocates in that the Second Amendment guarantees the right for citizens to own and carry guns. Their argument has been repeated so many times that many progressives or moderates parrot the same line. Then they offer arguments as to why there should be limitations on gun ownership, such as bans on assault weapons.

There are two problems with the Second Amendment. First, under any circumstance, it is confusing; something that an English teacher would mark up in red ink and tell the author to redo and clarify. Secondly, there are actually two versions of the Amendment; The first passed by two-thirds of the members of each house of Congress (the first step for ratifying a constitutional amendment). A different version passed by three-fourths of the states (the second step for ratifying a constitution amendment). The primary difference between the two versions are a capitalization and asimple comma.

The version passed by Congress is:
  • A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The version ratified by the states and authenticated by Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson reads:
  • A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
It’s difficult to determine the difference between having a capital M and a lower-case m in the word militia. Generally, a capital letter means a proper noun. In that case, the upper case M, as in the Congressional version, references a particular militia, that being the armed forces of the United States. The lower-case m in the second version would refer to a group of individuals who form an ad hoc army, most likely to oppose the armed forces of the United States. Therefore, it would be okay to keep and bear arms only as part of the official armed forces of the United States. This argument supports a limited version of the right to bear arms; only when serving in the official armed forces of the United States.

The comma in the first version (between the words Arms and shall) also changes the meaning of the amendment. The first version with the comma maintains the reference to the official armed forces of the United States. That is further evidence that the right to bear arms is limited to serving in the official military of the United States. The lack of a comma (between arms and shall) in the second version, implies that there is equality or parity between bearing arms for the official forces of the United States and for personal use of firearms. This supports the N.R.A. position on the Second Amendment. as does the lower case m.

The provision for passing an amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires ratification of the same language by two-thirds of the members of each house of Congress, and the legislatures of three-fourths of the states, as described in Article V of the Constitution. It states:


[shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress;]

But in the case of the Second Amendment, the language between the Congressional and state versions have different meanings.

What this does is to throw out either meaning of the Second Amendment. It puts the definition of the right to bear arms in the same category as other items not mentioned in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, such as the right to privacy, the right to reproductive freedom, the right to gay marriage.

Bearing arms is then a legislative issue. It may be that the policy desired by Congress, the states of the U.S., and most importantly the people, is to permit individuals to own assault weapons. It also may be to prohibit them. In any case, the decision should be made on wise policy, without constitutional reference to the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment should be null and void, because its ratification did not follow the prescribed method for passing an amendment. This makes it blatantly confusing.

As Fareed Zakaria pointed out in Time, “Congress passed the first set of federal laws regulating, licensing and taxing guns in 1934. The act was challenged and went to the U.S. Supreme Court in 1939. Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s solicitor general, Robert H. Jackson, said the Second Amendment grants people a right that ‘is not one which may be utilized for private purposes but only one which exists where the arms are borne in the militia or some other military organization provided for by law and intended for the protection of the state.’ The court agreed unanimously.”


Let’s continue (or start) the debate and discussion on gun ownership based on sound policy, rather than on the lame and unconstitutional elements of the Second Amendment.

Confusion -- the wording of the Second Amendment - by Arthur Lieber

There is no doubt that the 2nd Amendment is confusing and obsolete.

The first passed by two-thirds of the members of each house of Congress (the first step for ratifying a constitutional amendment).

Who ever wrote that tripe has no fucking clue what it's talking about.

There aren't two steps in the ratification of an amendment, in this case congress proposed an amendment, the States chose to ratify it in a slightly different form.

Also the 2nd refers to a State militia, not a federal militia, that the States fully controlled. The State and the founders didn't want a standing federal army, that's why they limited funding for one to two years in Article 1.

The people everywhere they are mentioned in the constitution, means exactly that, the citizens of the country, has no reference to a State or the federal governments. The 2nd is no different.

You dumb ass regressives can say it till the end of time, the second phrase of the 2nd allow the individual to keep and bear arms.
 
A re-post from another of Lakhota's many other threads of the same format. Glad Lakhota found it amusing, but trying to educate the poor confused simpleton. Your welcome by the way Lakhota. Please pay attention.
The Bill of Rights is the collective name for the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution. Proposed following the often times bitter 1787–1788 battle over ratification of the Constitution, and crafted to address the objections raised byAnti-Federalists, the Bill of Rights amendments add certain safeguards of democracy—specific guarantees of personal freedoms and rights; clear limitations on the government's power in judicial and other proceedings; and explicit declarations that all powers not specifically delegated to Congress by the Constitution are reserved for the states or the people—to the Constitution.

What part of personal freedoms and rights are so confusing? You really need to brush up on your understanding of the Constitution. Only a simpleton couldn't understand that the Bill of rights are reserved for the people and states meant to protect us from an over-reaching Fed. You seem to have no problem using the First Amendment to spout garbage and outright lies. The 2nd Amendment actually protects your right to be a moron.
 
One of the primary arguments of gun advocates in that the Second Amendment guarantees the right for citizens to own and carry guns. Their argument has been repeated so many times that many progressives or moderates parrot the same line. Then they offer arguments as to why there should be limitations on gun ownership, such as bans on assault weapons.

There are two problems with the Second Amendment. First, under any circumstance, it is confusing; something that an English teacher would mark up in red ink and tell the author to redo and clarify. Secondly, there are actually two versions of the Amendment; The first passed by two-thirds of the members of each house of Congress (the first step for ratifying a constitutional amendment). A different version passed by three-fourths of the states (the second step for ratifying a constitution amendment). The primary difference between the two versions are a capitalization and asimple comma.

The version passed by Congress is:
  • A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The version ratified by the states and authenticated by Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson reads:
  • A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
It’s difficult to determine the difference between having a capital M and a lower-case m in the word militia. Generally, a capital letter means a proper noun. In that case, the upper case M, as in the Congressional version, references a particular militia, that being the armed forces of the United States. The lower-case m in the second version would refer to a group of individuals who form an ad hoc army, most likely to oppose the armed forces of the United States. Therefore, it would be okay to keep and bear arms only as part of the official armed forces of the United States. This argument supports a limited version of the right to bear arms; only when serving in the official armed forces of the United States.

The comma in the first version (between the words Arms and shall) also changes the meaning of the amendment. The first version with the comma maintains the reference to the official armed forces of the United States. That is further evidence that the right to bear arms is limited to serving in the official military of the United States. The lack of a comma (between arms and shall) in the second version, implies that there is equality or parity between bearing arms for the official forces of the United States and for personal use of firearms. This supports the N.R.A. position on the Second Amendment. as does the lower case m.

The provision for passing an amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires ratification of the same language by two-thirds of the members of each house of Congress, and the legislatures of three-fourths of the states, as described in Article V of the Constitution. It states:


[shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress;]

But in the case of the Second Amendment, the language between the Congressional and state versions have different meanings.

What this does is to throw out either meaning of the Second Amendment. It puts the definition of the right to bear arms in the same category as other items not mentioned in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, such as the right to privacy, the right to reproductive freedom, the right to gay marriage.

Bearing arms is then a legislative issue. It may be that the policy desired by Congress, the states of the U.S., and most importantly the people, is to permit individuals to own assault weapons. It also may be to prohibit them. In any case, the decision should be made on wise policy, without constitutional reference to the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment should be null and void, because its ratification did not follow the prescribed method for passing an amendment. This makes it blatantly confusing.

As Fareed Zakaria pointed out in Time, “Congress passed the first set of federal laws regulating, licensing and taxing guns in 1934. The act was challenged and went to the U.S. Supreme Court in 1939. Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s solicitor general, Robert H. Jackson, said the Second Amendment grants people a right that ‘is not one which may be utilized for private purposes but only one which exists where the arms are borne in the militia or some other military organization provided for by law and intended for the protection of the state.’ The court agreed unanimously.”


Let’s continue (or start) the debate and discussion on gun ownership based on sound policy, rather than on the lame and unconstitutional elements of the Second Amendment.

Confusion -- the wording of the Second Amendment - by Arthur Lieber

There is no doubt that the 2nd Amendment is confusing and obsolete.


Didn't you say in another thread that this one isn't necessary? Please explain why you lied in the other one.
 
One of the primary arguments of gun advocates in that the Second Amendment guarantees the right for citizens to own and carry guns. Their argument has been repeated so many times that many progressives or moderates parrot the same line. Then they offer arguments as to why there should be limitations on gun ownership, such as bans on assault weapons.

There are two problems with the Second Amendment. First, under any circumstance, it is confusing; something that an English teacher would mark up in red ink and tell the author to redo and clarify. Secondly, there are actually two versions of the Amendment; The first passed by two-thirds of the members of each house of Congress (the first step for ratifying a constitutional amendment). A different version passed by three-fourths of the states (the second step for ratifying a constitution amendment). The primary difference between the two versions are a capitalization and asimple comma.

The version passed by Congress is:
  • A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The version ratified by the states and authenticated by Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson reads:
  • A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
It’s difficult to determine the difference between having a capital M and a lower-case m in the word militia. Generally, a capital letter means a proper noun. In that case, the upper case M, as in the Congressional version, references a particular militia, that being the armed forces of the United States. The lower-case m in the second version would refer to a group of individuals who form an ad hoc army, most likely to oppose the armed forces of the United States. Therefore, it would be okay to keep and bear arms only as part of the official armed forces of the United States. This argument supports a limited version of the right to bear arms; only when serving in the official armed forces of the United States.

The comma in the first version (between the words Arms and shall) also changes the meaning of the amendment. The first version with the comma maintains the reference to the official armed forces of the United States. That is further evidence that the right to bear arms is limited to serving in the official military of the United States. The lack of a comma (between arms and shall) in the second version, implies that there is equality or parity between bearing arms for the official forces of the United States and for personal use of firearms. This supports the N.R.A. position on the Second Amendment. as does the lower case m.

The provision for passing an amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires ratification of the same language by two-thirds of the members of each house of Congress, and the legislatures of three-fourths of the states, as described in Article V of the Constitution. It states:


[shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress;]

But in the case of the Second Amendment, the language between the Congressional and state versions have different meanings.

What this does is to throw out either meaning of the Second Amendment. It puts the definition of the right to bear arms in the same category as other items not mentioned in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, such as the right to privacy, the right to reproductive freedom, the right to gay marriage.

Bearing arms is then a legislative issue. It may be that the policy desired by Congress, the states of the U.S., and most importantly the people, is to permit individuals to own assault weapons. It also may be to prohibit them. In any case, the decision should be made on wise policy, without constitutional reference to the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment should be null and void, because its ratification did not follow the prescribed method for passing an amendment. This makes it blatantly confusing.

As Fareed Zakaria pointed out in Time, “Congress passed the first set of federal laws regulating, licensing and taxing guns in 1934. The act was challenged and went to the U.S. Supreme Court in 1939. Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s solicitor general, Robert H. Jackson, said the Second Amendment grants people a right that ‘is not one which may be utilized for private purposes but only one which exists where the arms are borne in the militia or some other military organization provided for by law and intended for the protection of the state.’ The court agreed unanimously.”


Let’s continue (or start) the debate and discussion on gun ownership based on sound policy, rather than on the lame and unconstitutional elements of the Second Amendment.

Confusion -- the wording of the Second Amendment - by Arthur Lieber

There is no doubt that the 2nd Amendment is confusing and obsolete.
59850192.jpg
 
What this does is to throw out either meaning of the Second Amendment. It puts the definition of the right to bear arms in the same category as other items not mentioned in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, such as the right to privacy, the right to reproductive freedom, the right to gay marriage.”

Incorrect.

The rights acknowledged and protected by the Constitution and its case law are all of equal merit, as the Constitution exists solely in the context of its case law.

The right to privacy – the right to be free from unwarranted interference by government concerning personal matters, such as whether to have a child or not – is clearly expressed in the 4th Amendment and the Fifth Amendment's Liberty Clause; just as the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the 14th Amendment safeguard the right of same-sex couples to access marriage law.

Likewise, the Second Amendment recognizes an individual right to possess firearms pursuant to lawful self-defense.

And as is the case with all other recognized and protected rights, the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment are not absolute – although inalienable, they are nonetheless subject to reasonable restrictions by government.

It is therefore perfectly appropriate, warranted, and desirable to allow Second Amendment jurisprudence to continue to evolve, to allow government to place restrictions on the Second Amendment right in good faith, and for citizens to challenge those restrictions in Federal court they believe to place an undue burden on that right, where the political and judicial process will ultimately determine the desired balance between the right of individuals to bear arms and the right of the people to enact measures concerning public safety.
 
The Embarrassing Second Amendment

Yes, the 2nd is embarrassingly confusing and stupid - especially beyond the era in which it was written.
Which is why we have a Supreme Court, the doctrine of judicial review, and the rule of law: to determine what the Constitution means and end the confusion, bringing resolution to the conflicts and controversies of the day.

Second Amendment jurisprudence is in its infancy, currently evolving, and defining the relationship between government and those governed, in this case what firearm regulatory measures are warranted and Constitutional, and what measures are not.
 
There is nothing confusing about it unless you're a dumb ass. Since the second amendment is included in the BILL OF RIGHTS, that means it is a right of the people. The Bill of Rights isn't about government. The Bill of Rights is about OUR individual liberties as citizens of the United States of America. Once you understand and get that, it is simple. Also . . . READ the federalist papers. The meaning is quite clear.
 
The Embarrassing Second Amendment

Yes, the 2nd is embarrassingly confusing and stupid - especially beyond the era in which it was written.
Which is why we have a Supreme Court, the doctrine of judicial review, and the rule of law: to determine what the Constitution means and end the confusion, bringing resolution to the conflicts and controversies of the day.

Second Amendment jurisprudence is in its infancy, currently evolving, and defining the relationship between government and those governed, in this case what firearm regulatory measures are warranted and Constitutional, and what measures are not.

How can you claim to be a lawyer and yet know so little?? You are full of it. If you knew anything about what you were talking about, you would know what the Second Amendment means.
 
What this does is to throw out either meaning of the Second Amendment. It puts the definition of the right to bear arms in the same category as other items not mentioned in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, such as the right to privacy, the right to reproductive freedom, the right to gay marriage.”

Incorrect.

The rights acknowledged and protected by the Constitution and its case law are all of equal merit, as the Constitution exists solely in the context of its case law.

The right to privacy – the right to be free from unwarranted interference by government concerning personal matters, such as whether to have a child or not – is clearly expressed in the 4th Amendment and the Fifth Amendment's Liberty Clause; just as the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the 14th Amendment safeguard the right of same-sex couples to access marriage law.

Likewise, the Second Amendment recognizes an individual right to possess firearms pursuant to lawful self-defense.

And as is the case with all other recognized and protected rights, the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment are not absolute – although inalienable, they are nonetheless subject to reasonable restrictions by government.

It is therefore perfectly appropriate, warranted, and desirable to allow Second Amendment jurisprudence to continue to evolve, to allow government to place restrictions on the Second Amendment right in good faith, and for citizens to challenge those restrictions in Federal court they believe to place an undue burden on that right, where the political and judicial process will ultimately determine the desired balance between the right of individuals to bear arms and the right of the people to enact measures concerning public safety.

And what do the federalist papers say about the second amendment? What does it say about that right being "infringed" upon? Our rights are meant to protect us FROM the government. :eek-52: Phony lawyer.
 

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