Civilians vs Combatents

[Shusha]

AND, relative to these Resolutions, the West Bank and Jerusalem was still Sovereign Jordanian territory.

As an aside to discussions with Tinny, how did Jordan acquire sovereignty over the territory in question? Simply the act of effective control? Just curious as I can't see any legitimate claim to Jordanian sovereignty over that territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Neither the two state solution (partition) nor the pre-1967 borders have any basis in international law.

While I agree the "1967 borders" have no standing in law other than as they were intended, which is temporary armistice lines, I disagree that the two state solution has no basis. You, yourself, are arguing most vehemently for one such basis in law -- that of the INHERENT right to self-determination and sovereignty over territory.

Interesting.

What is the legal basis for the two state solution?

 

[Shusha]

What is the legal basis for the two state solution?

Um. The inherent right to self-determination and sovereignty that you are so vehemently arguing for? Are you trying to now say that those inherent rights are pointless, since they have no legal basis? WT actual F?

 

[Shusha]

This is where I tell you again that you have not thought your arguments through to their logical conclusion.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What is the legal basis for the two state solution?

Um. The inherent right to self-determination and sovereignty that you are so vehemently arguing for? Are you trying to now say that those inherent rights are pointless, since they have no legal basis? WT actual F?

OK, but where do you get two states?

 

[Shusha]

You are claiming that Palestinians have inherent rights, while simultaneously claiming that the Jewish people can only have rights which are granted.​

​

I have never said that.

Wow. Seriously?

The UN did not grant those rights to the Palestinians. It reaffirmed already existing rights. You need to read up. Israel is a different country with no defined territory.

Implication is that Israel/Jewish people have no existing rights (thus no inherent rights).

The UN states that the Palestinians, in Palestine, have these rights. There have been no similar statements for the Israelis.

Implication being that without any statements by the UN, the Israelis/Jewish people have no such rights (thus no inherent rights).

Do you have any specifying those rights for Israelis?

Implication being that without any specifications of rights for Israelis/Jewish people, they have no such rights (thus no inherent rights).

When did they become a legal people inside a defined territory?

Implication being that unless a people becomes a "legal people" (through some mysterious process you have declined to describe) within a defined territory, they have no rights (thus no inherent rights).



This is only this thread, and only in the past day or so. I haven't even touched other threads or done any detailed history.

Why don't you try to show me one response, one post, on one thread EVER where you supported clearly and unambiguously that the Jewish people have the same inherent, invioable rights that the Palestinians have.

 

[Shusha]

OK, but where do you get two states?

OMG -- what the actual F? So you are saying that BOTH the Jewish people and the Palestinian (Arab) people can have self-determination and sovereignty but that the territory can not be divided between them? They can only have self-determination and sovereignty if they share the same exact territory?

What the heck do you think self-determination and sovereignty MEAN?

 

[P F Tinmore]

You are claiming that Palestinians have inherent rights, while simultaneously claiming that the Jewish people can only have rights which are granted.​

​

I have never said that.

Wow. Seriously?

The UN did not grant those rights to the Palestinians. It reaffirmed already existing rights. You need to read up. Israel is a different country with no defined territory.

Implication is that Israel/Jewish people have no existing rights (thus no inherent rights).

The UN states that the Palestinians, in Palestine, have these rights. There have been no similar statements for the Israelis.

Implication being that without any statements by the UN, the Israelis/Jewish people have no such rights (thus no inherent rights).

Do you have any specifying those rights for Israelis?

Implication being that without any specifications of rights for Israelis/Jewish people, they have no such rights (thus no inherent rights).

When did they become a legal people inside a defined territory?

Implication being that unless a people becomes a "legal people" (through some mysterious process you have declined to describe) within a defined territory, they have no rights (thus no inherent rights).



This is only this thread, and only in the past day or so. I haven't even touched other threads or done any detailed history.

Why don't you try to show me one response, one post, on one thread EVER where you supported clearly and unambiguously that the Jewish people have the same inherent, invioable rights that the Palestinians have.

When did they become a legal people inside a defined territory?

Implication being that unless a people becomes a "legal people" (through some mysterious process you have declined to describe) within a defined territory, they have no rights (thus no inherent rights).​

I know, "legal people" seems like an odd term but I used it to make a point. And it is not some mysterious process.

There is a thing in international law called the law of state succession. What this means is that all of the people who were Turkish/Ottoman citizens and lived in the defined territory of Palestine, be they Muslims, Christians, or Jews, became Palestinian citizens without prejudice. This held true for the other successor states like Syria and Lebanon. Article 30 in the Treaty of Lausanne said the same thing as it followed the law.

I used the term "legal people" because they were Palestinian citizens as a matter of law. Of course, along with this citizenship came the inherent rights like the right to self determination, etc..

 

[Shusha]

I used the term "legal people" because they were Palestinian citizens as a matter of law. Of course, along with this citizenship came the inherent rights like the right to self determination, etc..

But, again, this brings us back to the fact that there are two distinct peoples who are "Palestinian citizens" -- the Jewish people and the people we commonly name "Palestinians". So they BOTH have the rights to self-determination, right?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I used the term "legal people" because they were Palestinian citizens as a matter of law. Of course, along with this citizenship came the inherent rights like the right to self determination, etc..

But, again, this brings us back to the fact that there are two distinct peoples who are "Palestinian citizens" -- the Jewish people and the people we commonly name "Palestinians". So they BOTH have the rights to self-determination, right?

The Palestinians already were Muslims, Christians, and, Jews all with equal rights.

 

[xband]

I used the term "legal people" because they were Palestinian citizens as a matter of law. Of course, along with this citizenship came the inherent rights like the right to self determination, etc..

But, again, this brings us back to the fact that there are two distinct peoples who are "Palestinian citizens" -- the Jewish people and the people we commonly name "Palestinians". So they BOTH have the rights to self-determination, right?

The Palestinians already were Muslims, Christians, and, Jews all with equal rights.

The Allies had to put the Jews someplace after WWII and Palestine was picked.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians already were Muslims, Christians, and, Jews all with equal rights.

Including the inherent right to self-determination and sovereignty, yes?

The Jewish "Palestinians" want their own self-determination and sovereignty.

The Arab Palestinians want their own self-determination and sovereignty.

Both peoples have the same inherent rights, yes?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinians already were Muslims, Christians, and, Jews all with equal rights.

Including the inherent right to self-determination and sovereignty, yes?

The Jewish "Palestinians" want their own self-determination and sovereignty.

The Arab Palestinians want their own self-determination and sovereignty.

Both peoples have the same inherent rights, yes?

You are confused. The Palestinians are only one people. They are all equal. Nobody has more rights, less rights, or exclusive rights.

 

[Shusha]

You are confused. The Palestinians are only one people. They are all equal. Nobody has more rights, less rights, or exclusive rights.

Sure. So you agree that the Jewish Palestinians and the Arab Palestinians each have the same rights -- no more rights, no less rights, no exclusive rights. Jeez what took you so long?

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I would not put too much stock in this highly speculative conjecture.

We tend to be a bit more circumspect regarding a legal system we set up over here, we don't just ignore rulings we don't like, unlike Zionist Israel

That's BS speak for media reportage as opposed to factual evidence which was not presented. Interesting that these "Intelligence agencies" balked at providing this evidence regarding HAMAS but not for every every other individual or group on the EU list. Looks like RoccoR's making things up again.

Interesting that these "Intelligence agencies" balked at providing this evidence regarding HAMAS...​

Could it be that they don't have anything?

(COMMENT)

HAMAS is known to have provided safe haven and support to a number of known terrorist groups.

Every time a Pro-HAMAS outlet says they have the right to attack unarmed civilians in Israel, they are advocating terrorism.

This i an interesting observation from Quora:

Part of the strategy was to see how long they could lob rockets into Israel, under the watchful eyes of the world and not be condemned. A game they have played for many years and sadly win in many arenas. They taunt the Israeli government until a harsh response is made. This is the only response they understand. Then once the response is made, they take the side that Israel is killing their citizens and destroying Gaza. It is a very exacting game by Hamas.
​

There is evidence out there. Actually HAMAS seldom if ever denies an act they have committed. It is almost as if they know they are above the law.

Most Respectfully,
R

how long they could lob rockets into Israel,​

Can you prove that statement?

haven't you read the reports from many NGO's that say this is a fact. Its only you that denies the facts

Reports based on assumptions.

No reports based on actual siting's of rockets being fired from gaza into Israel, with telemetry to prove their flight paths. Visible on Google Earth for anyone to see, if they want to pay for up to the minute images.
But you always deny the rights of the Jews don't you being a rabid racist Nazi anti Semite

 

[Phoenall]

The Palestinians already were Muslims, Christians, and, Jews all with equal rights.

Including the inherent right to self-determination and sovereignty, yes?

The Jewish "Palestinians" want their own self-determination and sovereignty.

The Arab Palestinians want their own self-determination and sovereignty.

Both peoples have the same inherent rights, yes?

You are confused. The Palestinians are only one people. They are all equal. Nobody has more rights, less rights, or exclusive rights.

Unless they are Jews of course