Christians and Anger

[ABikerSailor]

So you post all that, and call me clueless. Which I find insulting.

God gave Adam and Eve one chance, can you refute otherwise?

They ate from the apple, and were tossed out of paradise pretty quickly.

How about making Abraham bringing his son Issac up to the hill to almost kill him for a test? A TEST?

What kind of sick fuck does that? I can tell you right now, if Abraham did anything of the sort today and it was reported to the police that they arrest Abraham's ass so fast. Hell, they especially be interested when he says that God told him to do it.

How about the Story of Job? When God decides to give Satan permission to fuck with Job because Satan ACCUSES Job of only being pious because he is prosperous. Satan puts Job through trial after trial. Finally, at the end God restores everything and doubles it because Job passed his "test."

Now if God is omnipotent, why did he do this? To prove Satan wrong, a bet basically. Put a man through hell, kill his children, and inflict much damage upon him to just prove someone wrong.

God approves of slaughter for many things we'd balk at today in the O.T. Things such as killing sons of sinners (God had quite a obsession with killing first born sons in the O.T), killing the good Samaritan, killing people who work on the sabbath, killing false prophets, killing followers of other religions, killing women who are not virgins on their wedding night, killing an entire town if one person worships another God, death for cursing parents, killing witches, killing homosexuals, killing people who don't listen to priests. (I'm sure the priests quoted that one often).

And here is the thing, Christians can not ignore the O.T or invalidate it simply because it does not fit their views. It exists, it is still taught today in the church, and it's part of the history. It would be like if the U.S. decided to ignore the fact we had Slavery for all those years or the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII.

Dunno if I'd call you clueless Robert, I kinda think that you've got some brilliant insight quite often.

However..........

If you place what you just wrote in the lessons of a Sensei teaching a student, they kinda make sense.

Kill Bill (pts 1 and 2), Karate Kid (remember when Mr. Miyagi turned and made him work, and THEN showed him what he'd learned)?

Trust me Robert, it makes sense.

 

[sky dancer]

I didn't call them deluded. I said that they believe in a delusion. Not only is this delusion illogical, but it calls upon its believers to vigorously defend it. Thus, it leads to anger when challenged.

You may have noticed I did not attach my question to your post. It was rhetorical.

The experience that some call God and others Buddha is not deluded. It only becomes deluded when we try and talk about it.

There is nothing to get angry about because there is nothing to defend. This presence of being just is.

If you haven't had that experience then there is nothing to talk about. It is beyond words and concepts--completely free and open.

 

[Care4all]

So you post all that, and call me clueless. Which I find insulting.

God gave Adam and Eve one chance, can you refute otherwise?

They ate from the apple, and were tossed out of paradise pretty quickly.

How about making Abraham bringing his son Issac up to the hill to almost kill him for a test? A TEST?

What kind of sick fuck does that? I can tell you right now, if Abraham did anything of the sort today and it was reported to the police that they arrest Abraham's ass so fast. Hell, they especially be interested when he says that God told him to do it.

How about the Story of Job? When God decides to give Satan permission to fuck with Job because Satan ACCUSES Job of only being pious because he is prosperous. Satan puts Job through trial after trial. Finally, at the end God restores everything and doubles it because Job passed his "test."

Now if God is omnipotent, why did he do this? To prove Satan wrong, a bet basically. Put a man through hell, kill his children, and inflict much damage upon him to just prove someone wrong.

God approves of slaughter for many things we'd balk at today in the O.T. Things such as killing sons of sinners (God had quite a obsession with killing first born sons in the O.T), killing the good Samaritan, killing people who work on the sabbath, killing false prophets, killing followers of other religions, killing women who are not virgins on their wedding night, killing an entire town if one person worships another God, death for cursing parents, killing witches, killing homosexuals, killing people who don't listen to priests. (I'm sure the priests quoted that one often).

And here is the thing, Christians can not ignore the O.T or invalidate it simply because it does not fit their views. It exists, it is still taught today in the church, and it's part of the history. It would be like if the U.S. decided to ignore the fact we had Slavery for all those years or the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII.

robert!

before i even read your respnse on this post, please let me respond to your first comment!

the words i chose were harsh as you just stated! But please know, when i wrote them, i did not believe they were harsh and thought you would take it as a grain of salt...with no malice!!!

BUTTTTTTTT, after seeing your first line, i realize how it could be offensive to a young man as yourself!

please accept my apology!

NOW, let me read the rest of your post, and if i still think you are misunderstanding many things i won't stop saying such, but i will allow you, your opinion....not to say i won't work my hardest to try to make you see, what i see though....but that's just the ''love for debate'' that is inbred in me!

care

 

[sky dancer]

Care-

If I had rep points I would have given them to you. It is so RARE for a forum member to apologize to another.

Thank you. It warms my heart to see you do that.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Care-

If I had rep points I would have given them to you. It is so RARE for a forum member to apologize to another.

Thank you. It warms my heart to see you do that.

Not a problem Sky. Took care of it for ya!

You know I really love you, right?

 

[catzmeow]

The experience that some call God and others Buddha is not deluded. It only becomes deluded when we try and talk about it.

I was specifically referencing the Christian delusion that they can define god for themselves and others, and know that what they have experienced is the sum total of truth. That's bullshit. If there is a god, he/she/it is far bigger than can be contained in a book.

Furthermore, Yahweh, as described in the Bible, looks like an abusive, egomaniacal prick. I doubt that if there is a god, he/she resembles the description contained in the Bible.

 

[DiveCon]

I was specifically referencing the Christian delusion that they can define god for themselves and others, and know that what they have experienced is the sum total of truth. That's bullshit. If there is a god, he/she/it is far bigger than can be contained in a book.

Furthermore, Yahweh, as described in the Bible, looks like an abusive, egomaniacal prick. I doubt that if there is a god, he/she resembles the description contained in the Bible.

doesnt every religion define God?

 

[catzmeow]

doesnt every religion define God?

They try to, and generally fail.

 

[Modbert]

doesnt every religion define God?

No. Buddhism is a pantheistic philosophy, not a religion. Buddha (the enlightened one) is not a deity, but a philosopher. There are a great many of atheistic buddhists as well, and sects of hindu and taoist philosophy which do not include the existence of gods.

 

[Modbert]

robert!

before i even read your respnse on this post, please let me respond to your first comment!

the words i chose were harsh as you just stated! But please know, when i wrote them, i did not believe they were harsh and thought you would take it as a grain of salt...with no malice!!!

BUTTTTTTTT, after seeing your first line, i realize how it could be offensive to a young man as yourself!

please accept my apology!

NOW, let me read the rest of your post, and if i still think you are misunderstanding many things i won't stop saying such, but i will allow you, your opinion....not to say i won't work my hardest to try to make you see, what i see though....but that's just the ''love for debate'' that is inbred in me!

care

Thank you for the apology. I'm sure you meant no harm but I was offended. However, I can see where you are coming from now.

 

[Modbert]

Dunno if I'd call you clueless Robert, I kinda think that you've got some brilliant insight quite often.

However..........

If you place what you just wrote in the lessons of a Sensei teaching a student, they kinda make sense.

Kill Bill (pts 1 and 2), Karate Kid (remember when Mr. Miyagi turned and made him work, and THEN showed him what he'd learned)?

Trust me Robert, it makes sense.

I can see where you're coming from. However, those people went voluntary and even willfully under such training. All these people aren't asking for tragedies to befall them in order to be taught a lesson.

 

[sky dancer]

I was specifically referencing the Christian delusion that they can define god for themselves and others, and know that what they have experienced is the sum total of truth. That's bullshit. If there is a god, he/she/it is far bigger than can be contained in a book.

Furthermore, Yahweh, as described in the Bible, looks like an abusive, egomaniacal prick. I doubt that if there is a god, he/she resembles the description contained in the Bible.

I agree with you. What I'm talking about is an experience that Perham and I agree on. Somehow we can meet there. It's not about scriptures or phoney baloney platitudes--we're talking about something beyond words. Here and now moment to moment experience. In my case, it comes and goes, lol. Probably goes more than comes. But it is real enough, once recognized, to train in.

And it does not require theology.

 

[DiveCon]

No. Buddhism is a pantheistic philosophy, not a religion. Buddha (the enlightened one) is not a deity, but a philosopher. There are a great many of atheistic buddhists as well, and sects of hindu and taoist philosophy which do not include the existence of gods.

they still define they deities

 

[Modbert]

they still define they deities

Yeah, that there is none.

Wasn't sure if you were asking if all religions try to define a God or have a God, my mistake.

 

[sky dancer]

Robert--

You may be a bit confused about pantheism and meditational deities. There is a view that accompanies the Tibetan Vajrayana path of deity meditation practice. The deities are not viewed as solid, self-existing, 'real', permanent etc etc.

It's a way to train the mind. It is different than say the Greek/Roman system of pantheistic gods-Zeus and Hera.

Meditational deities are a way to train the mind to recognize mental activity and to direct it in a positive manner.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I can see where you're coming from. However, those people went voluntary and even willfully under such training. All these people aren't asking for tragedies to befall them in order to be taught a lesson.

Not really......Uma Thurman's character, when she tried to leave, was forced back in, and therefore, ended up with the tragedies and pain.

Ralph Macchiato's character was forced into it by virtue of getting beat up in school, so the tragedy befell him, and then he was forced to go through the training required, so that he could walk around as a full human.

Matter of fact, I've kinda ended up with a bit of a story kinda like Job. Was sold for 25,000 by my real father to get me adopted by my mom's second husband. Went through lots of pain and extremely ugly experiences until I was 8, then was orphaned. Shifted around from relative to relative until I was 12, then put into foster care until 16, when I ran away to go back with my grandparents.

Then I joined the Navy.

Did I ask for those experiences? Not really......would have much preferred to keep a family and go to college, maybe become a DJ or a writer.

Am I glad that I went through them? Well.....up until I was 30, I was plenty pissed off about what had happened to me growing up. I then met a friend of mine who told me that God doesn't give us more than we can handle, it's just that sometimes I wish He didn't have such faith in my abilities. Off of that, I'd learned that I'd survived, and came through reasonably whole, and, applying the lessons in my life, as well as figuring out how to avoid the whole death and despair thing, makes me super potent.

My friend told me that I'd had experiences growing up that most 50 year olds didn't have. What's more, is that I'd figured out how to identify with others who were going through the same experience, and show them my solution for getting through.

Nope......didn't ask for those experiences, and while I was going through them, I kept asking "why me?" The answer I always got back was "why NOT you"?

After that.......I didn't bitch much.....just looked for more solutions to share with others.

Does that mean God is a bastard? NO. What that means is God saw something in me to make me an instrument to help others, which is why I'd received such a varied life.

 

[Modbert]

Robert--

You may be a bit confused about pantheism and meditational deities. There is a view that accompanies the Tibetan Vajrayana path of deity meditation practice. The deities are not viewed as solid, self-existing, 'real', permanent etc etc.

It's a way to train the mind. It is different than say the Greek/Roman system of pantheistic gods-Zeus and Hera.

Meditational deities are a way to train the mind to recognize mental activity and to direct it in a positive manner.

That might of been it. Most recently, I've been reading up on Buddhism more and more.

 

[catzmeow]

I agree with you.

I know you do. But, the attempts by Christians to insist that god conforms to the beliefs they hold about their deity definitely falls into the category of delusion, as described.

 

[sky dancer]

No. Buddhism is a pantheistic philosophy, not a religion. Buddha (the enlightened one) is not a deity, but a philosopher. There are a great many of atheistic buddhists as well, and sects of hindu and taoist philosophy which do not include the existence of gods.

I suppose technically ordinary resources talk about Buddhism in connection with pantheism.

Personally, I don't relate to the meditational deity practices as 'pantheism' because of the teachings on emptiness that co-occur with this type of meditation training.

 

[sky dancer]

I know you do. But, the attempts by Christians to insist that god conforms to the beliefs they hold about their deity definitely falls into the category of delusion, as described.

We could discuss what we each consider 'delusion' for quite some time.