China will fly military jets over Taiwan itself, dare Taiwan to fire on them

[Tom Paine 1949]

This would be the perfect time with a weak president and russia causing trouble in ukraine

President Biden is not “weak,” and his administration has shown a great deal of savvy and competence in confronting Putin’s stupid, brutal and bloody adventure in invading and trying to overturn the government of Ukraine.

I have long opposed NATO’s rapid expansion plans and feared the West was “setting up” Ukraine to become a devastated battle zone, another “proxy war” in our geo-political fight against Russia. I also opposed our government’s support of the hard nationalist Ukrainian forces that overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine in the “Maidan Revolution.”

But as inadvisable as that “Revolution” was in my opinion, as much as I preferred that “Greater Ukraine” (including Crimea) remain a “neutral” country trading with Russia and the West, I also believe every supporter of democratic rights must now oppose dictator Putin’s mad and bloody invasion, which endangers world peace (and will probably fail in its aims). NATO troops should stay out of this fight, and a NATO-enforced “no-fly” zone would also be a terribly dangerous idea, only strengthening dictator Putin’s case before his own people.

In Taiwan, the U.S. is now setting up the Taiwanese for a similar fate, as I have made clear. However, the very different balance of forces there, the legal situation that Taiwan is unrecognized by the U.S. or the UN, and many other factors as well, make it urgent that we not abandon our long-standing policy to try to keep Taiwan as a “neutral” trading partner of both sides, an essentially autonomous part of “One China” — for as long as possible.

The war-mongering tweets and proposals of Republicans like Mike Pompeo to arm Taiwan to the hilt and recognize its independence will not help preserve peace or the Taiwan status quo — which best serves both our present interests and Taiwan’s real interests as well.

Pompeo tweets, risks war with China over Taiwan

Such chirping from the former secretary of state, who has obvious political ambitions, is reckless and irresponsible.

responsiblestatecraft.org

 

[Mac-7]

In Taiwan, the U.S. is now setting up the Taiwanese for a similar fate, as I have made clear.

Do you really think the Taiwanese people want to lose their freedom to a britsl dictatorship in peking?

the US is not “setting up” Taiwan for anything

Taiwan desperately wants to be free and they are looking for help wherever they can find it

 

[Mac-7]

Tom Paine 1949

and another thing while we are on the subject, freedom for Taiwan, Japan and S Korea is in America’s best interest also

 

[Donald H]

President Biden is not “weak,” and his administration has shown a great deal of savvy and competence in confronting Putin’s stupid, brutal and bloody adventure in invading and trying to overturn the government of Ukraine.

You call it Putin's stupid, brutal and bloody adventure, but you go on to say in your next paragraph:

I have long opposed NATO’s rapid expansion plans and feared the West was “setting up” Ukraine to become a devastated battle zone, another “proxy war” in our geo-political fight against Russia. I also opposed our government’s support of the hard nationalist Ukrainian forces that overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine in the “Maidan Revolution.”

And then strangely, you show that you're quite informed on the facts? I've bolded some of your words, mostly because I need not repeat those words.

Putin's adventure is brutal and bloody but an alternative has been offered to the Ukraine every step of the way. And yes, it could become 'stupid' too.

Most important in what you say Tom, is that you are aware it's not Zelensky's war in which he's calling the shots, it's America's war against Russia.

So if nothinig else can come of this Tom, thank you for the break from the spamming and childish nonsense for at least a few minutes.

edit: I've stopped short of your comments on China for now for reasons of not causing confusion on this thread.

 

[Donald H]

In Taiwan, the U.S. is now setting up the Taiwanese for a similar fate, as I have made clear. However, the very different balance of forces there, the legal situation that Taiwan is unrecognized by the U.S. or the UN, and many other factors as well, make it urgent that we not abandon our long-standing policy to try to keep Taiwan as a “neutral” trading partner of both sides, an essentially autonomous part of “One China” — for as long as possible.

The war-mongering tweets and proposals of Republicans like Mike Pompeo to arm Taiwan to the hilt and recognize its independence will not help preserve peace or the Taiwan status quo — which best serves both our present interests and Taiwan’s real interests as well.

Pompeo tweets, risks war with China over Taiwan

Such chirping from the former secretary of state, who has obvious political ambitions, is reckless and irresponsible.

responsiblestatecraft.org

Your comments on Taiwan and China. The future depends on America's acceptance of the status quo in Taiwan. Very much the same as the situation in the Crimea in my opinion. A situatiion in which both sides, both America and China can be content with the status quo.

But of course, both sides may make moves to upset the status quo. In my opinion it won't be upset by China unless it's provoked by America. And frankly fwiw, that has already started happening.

China has always taken the position of it being a bloodless process in which Taiwan would eventually choose alliance with China. All the evidence to date is indicating that will remain the case, unless there is a threat escalated by America.

It's worth mentioning that in both situations, America is again the aggressor. I don't see how that can be counterspun with propaganda. However, I'm always interested in a different POV if it's expressed sanely and politely, without undue spamming and childish nonsense. I'm confident that you are at least capable of doing that.

edit: apologies for the bold, Html sometimes doesn't work for me here.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

President Biden is not “weak,” and his administration has shown a great deal of savvy and competence in confronting Putin’s stupid, brutal and bloody adventure in invading and trying to overturn the government of Ukraine.

I have long opposed NATO’s rapid expansion plans and feared the West was “setting up” Ukraine to become a devastated battle zone, another “proxy war” in our geo-political fight against Russia. I also opposed our government’s support of the hard nationalist Ukrainian forces that overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine in the “Maidan Revolution.”

But as inadvisable as that “Revolution” was in my opinion, as much as I preferred that “Greater Ukraine” (including Crimea) remain a “neutral” country trading with Russia and the West, I also believe every supporter of democratic rights must now oppose dictator Putin’s mad and bloody invasion, which endangers world peace (and will probably fail in its aims). NATO troops should stay out of this fight, and a NATO-enforced “no-fly” zone would also be a terribly dangerous idea, only strengthening dictator Putin’s case before his own people.

In Taiwan, the U.S. is now setting up the Taiwanese for a similar fate, as I have made clear. However, the very different balance of forces there, the legal situation that Taiwan is unrecognized by the U.S. or the UN, and many other factors as well, make it urgent that we not abandon our long-standing policy to try to keep Taiwan as a “neutral” trading partner of both sides, an essentially autonomous part of “One China” — for as long as possible.

The war-mongering tweets and proposals of Republicans like Mike Pompeo to arm Taiwan to the hilt and recognize its independence will not help preserve peace or the Taiwan status quo — which best serves both our present interests and Taiwan’s real interests as well.

Pompeo tweets, risks war with China over Taiwan

Such chirping from the former secretary of state, who has obvious political ambitions, is reckless and irresponsible.

responsiblestatecraft.org

You just proved once again that you know nothing.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

“You just proved once again that you know nothing.”

Admiral, you have said nothing concrete to counter any of my arguments, which are simply based on political reality and deep knowledge of Chinese society … not on liberal idealist illusions.

I am as opposed as the next man to the authoritarian character of Chinese society, dominated today by XiJingping as head of the Communist Party. I do not support that authoritarian system … which is even less democratic than Putin’s Russia.

I really don’t know what you are talking about.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Admiral, you have said nothing concrete to counter any of my arguments, which are simply based on political reality and deep knowledge of Chinese society … not on liberal idealist illusions.

I am as opposed as the next man to the authoritarian character of Chinese society, dominated today by XiJingping as head of the Communist Party. I do not support that authoritarian system … which is even less democratic than Putin’s Russia.

I really don’t know what you are talking about.

How will China destroying the Taiwanese "recognize its independence will not help preserve peace or the Taiwan status quo — which best serves both our present interests and Taiwan’s real interests as well."

You want to 'splain that Lucy?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

I can’t even understand your question. Nobody wants China to “destroy Taiwan.” Try to speak more clearly and respond to what I do say, OK?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I can’t even understand your question. Nobody wants China to “destroy Taiwan.” Try to speak more clearly and respond to what I do say, OK?

The Chinese apparently do! I just don't think they re capable, flying 1950's era bombers that have not been upgraded and fighters that have never proven themselves to be worth a shit. Their amphibious assault criteria is too little to support an invasion. Their airborne corps is unproven and would likely be dead before they hit the ground as their transports would be shot out the sky, which is another shortage the Chinese have.

 

[toobfreak]

President Biden is not “weak,”

Neither is garlic, but that doesn't mean a gotta like him!

 

[Ringo]

 

[frigidweirdo]

Recent articles in the Global Times have strongly suggested the Chinese Air Force will fly jet fighters over Taiwan proper and dare the Taiwanese to fire upon them. These articles are a crystal clear warning that China is dead serious about upping the ante against what it feels are intolerable Taiwan-U.S. “provocations.”

PLA jets will eventually patrol over Taiwan: Global Times editorial - Global Times

The relative economic weight of China in the world is not increasing as rapidly as before, and China has no desire or illusions that it can “conquer the world.” But it will fight to unite “One China,” as they now feel the U.S. is using Taiwan against them, forcing Taiwan to stop selling them high tech computer chips, sending more ships to patrol the Taiwan Straight, selling more arms to Taiwan, etc.

The negotiations to allow the return to China of Huawei’s CFO must be settled quickly. The U.S. and Congress should stop what I think is irresponsible encouragement of Taiwanese hopes that the U.S. will save them (it won’t and can’t). We must not allow a situation develop where we “fight China to the last Taiwanese.”

Thing is right now, China must be looking at the Ukraine and thinking, "this is going to be harder than that". And China is less ready. China hasn't participated in combat since 1979 and then it got whipped by the Vietnamese, the Russians have been in Syria and have soldiers as mercenaries in other places.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

I agree the Chinese leadership is watching carefully the U.S./Western response to Putin’s bloody and disastrous invasion of Ukraine. They have probably been surprised by the demonstrated weakness of the Russian military against Western-armed and financed Ukraine, and by the strength of Western sanctions against Russia. That old bastard Kissinger recently stated he didn’t believe China would act for another decade of so. But of course if the U.S acts — as Pompeo wants — to recognize Taiwan’s independence and turn it into a “porcupine,” the Chinese may act much sooner. As I said, they will probably not opt for a full invasion if they feel they do need to act militarily.

China’s biggest fear may be that Putin is overthrown and the huge Russian state collapses again and breaks apart under Western pressure. I think this is actually a real possibility, given the truly abysmal state of Russian society and centrifugal forces operating on its regional bureaucracies. I don’t think this is the most likely result, however.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I agree the Chinese leadership is watching carefully the U.S./Western response to Putin’s bloody and disastrous invasion of Ukraine. They have probably been surprised by the demonstrated weakness of the Russian military against Western-armed and financed Ukraine, and by the strength of Western sanctions against Russia. That old bastard Kissinger recently stated he didn’t believe China would act for another decade of so. But of course if the U.S acts — as Pompeo wants — to recognize Taiwan’s independence and turn it into a “porcupine,” the Chinese may act much sooner. As I said, they will probably not opt for a full invasion if they feel they do need to act militarily.

China’s biggest fear may be that Putin is overthrown and the huge Russian state collapses again and breaks apart under Western pressure. I think this is actually a real possibility, given the truly abysmal state of Russian society and centrifugal forces operating on its regional bureaucracies. I don’t think this is the most likely result, however.

What struck fear in the hearts of those Chinese decision makers was the unanimity of the world in terms of trade and finance vis-a -vis Russia.
Sanctions and cutting ties.

No nation in the world needs foreign trade more than China.

It just may have dissuaded them from invading Taiwan......for now.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Yes, Chinese decision makers need and want foreign trade, especially resources like fossil fuels. But there was only near “unanimity of the world in terms of trade and finance vis-a -vis Russia” … in the developed West. The two most populous nations in the world, India and China, the Middle East Shiekdoms too, are not onboard with Russia sanctions. Nobody will be on board with significant U.S. sanctioning of China unless it invades Taiwan. Russia and China may be driven into each other’s arms economically by this horrible and dangerous war, at least temporarily.

 

[Ringo]

BEIJING, April 7. / China strongly opposes any form of official contacts between the United States and Taiwan. This was stated at a briefing on Thursday by Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian, commenting on the information about the possible visit of the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the US Congress Nancy Pelosi to Taiwan.

"The Chinese side strongly opposes any form of official contacts between the United States and Taiwan," he said.

As the diplomat pointed out, if Pelosi visits Taiwan, it will seriously violate the principle of "one China" and the provisions of the three Sino-American joint communiques, cause serious damage to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the People's Republic of China, strike at the political basis of bilateral relations and send a false signal to separatist forces advocating "Taiwan independence."

"The Chinese side expresses a strong protest in this regard and has already made a strict presentation to the American side," the diplomat said.

"The American side must strictly adhere to the one China principle and the provisions of the three Sino-American joint communiques, immediately cancel Pelosi's plan to visit Taiwan, cease official contacts with Taiwan, and take real actions to fulfill its promise not to support Taiwan's independence," he said.

"If the American side stands its ground, the Chinese side will certainly take decisive measures to protect its sovereignty and territorial integrity," the diplomat continued. As he pointed out, the United States will be responsible for all possible consequences.

As reported on Thursday by the Japanese channel Fuji TV, the speaker of the lower house of the US Congress Nancy Pelosi intends to visit Taiwan in the coming days. According to the channel's sources, Pelosi intends to arrive in Japan on April 8, where she will hold a meeting with Prime Minister Fumio Kishida. After that, she plans to visit Taiwan. It is emphasized that this will be the first visit to Taiwan by the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the US Congress in the last 25 years.

 

[Persuader]

What struck fear in the hearts of those Chinese decision makers was the unanimity of the world in terms of trade and finance vis-a -vis Russia.
Sanctions and cutting ties.

No nation in the world needs foreign trade more than China.

It just may have dissuaded them from invading Taiwan......for now.

I do not think China is ready to invade at this point.

I think they are ready for a limited military option.......as in.....fly directly over the Island of Taiwan daring Taiwan to do something about it.

What would you do if you were in Taiwans place.....shoot down a Chinese Plane knowing the consequences of that would not be pretty but could be and most likely would be catastrophic for Taiwan.... as in it would provoke China to attack them...not as in an invasion but as in the destruction of the Taiwan air force and possible bombing and missle strikes on Taiwan..very plausible for China to do that.

Would America under biden be willing to rise to the occasion....more likely you would see a non response as in what happened in Ukraine.

Though we must remember though biden is very weak and indecisive....yet his handlers may force him to do something of at least a limited nature.....both China and USA would want to keep the military stuff limited in nature aka you shoot down some of my planes....I shoot down some of yours and then we talk.

No one wants a all out nuclear war....but China is obsessed with Taiwan and will one way or the other do what they think needs to be done to gain control of Taiwan.

Most do not realize how ruthless the Chinese Communist Party can be.....those who have read some history of China do know....they have done absolutely horrendous things to their own people.....much worse than what Hitler did to the Jews.

........if they are willing to do such horrendous things to their own people....consider what they might do to foreign nations.

I think it is much too late to try and prevent China from taking Taiwan....the time for that passed long ago....we kicked the can down the road and now we are essentialy in an untenable position.

I think the best we can hope for is to do what the U.K did in regards to Hong Kong.....extract a ot of promises from them and then let them take control of Taiwan....by the time they renege on their promises most folks will have forgotten about the whole thing.

Unfortunately....ceding Taiwan will not stop the CCP....but it would buy us some time.....time we need to revamp our military, time to figure out how to stop their hypersonic missles, time for us to build more and better missles ....especially hypersonic missles......we lag behind both China and russia in regards to hypersonic missles................and prepare for the ultimate show down.

One of the best things we can do now....was suggested by of all people hillary clinton....build multiple crusise missle bases in the pacific within striking range of China....and makes these bases as resistant as possible to nukes.....arm the missles with nuclear warheads that are not radioactive I forget the term for them at the moment....that way if we have to use nukes we will not contaminate the world with radioactivity......The 'Neutron bomb' is what I was trying to think of.

and we can hope that China will one day settle down and not be consumed with the desire to dominate the world......wishful thinking....but it might calm some nerves.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I do not think China is ready to invade at this point.

I think they are ready for a limited military option.......as in.....fly directly over the Island of Taiwan daring Taiwan to do something about it.

What would you do if you were in Taiwans place.....shoot down a Chinese Plane knowing the consequences of that would not be pretty but could be and most likely would be catastrophic for Taiwan.... as in it would provoke China to attack them...not as in an invasion but as in the destruction of the Taiwan air force and possible bombing and missle strikes on Taiwan..very plausible for China to do that.

Would America under biden be willing to rise to the occasion....more likely you would see a non response as in what happened in Ukraine.

Though we must remember though biden is very weak and indecisive....yet his handlers may force him to do something of at least a limited nature.....both China and USA would want to keep the military stuff limited in nature aka you shoot down some of my planes....I shoot down some of yours and then we talk.

No one wants a all out nuclear war....but China is obsessed with Taiwan and will one way or the other do what they think needs to be done to gain control of Taiwan.

Most do not realize how ruthless the Chinese Communist Party can be.....those who have read some history of China do know....they have done absolutely horrendous things to their own people.....much worse than what Hitler did to the Jews.

........if they are willing to do such horrendous things to their own people....consider what they might do to foreign nations.

I think it is much too late to try and prevent China from taking Taiwan....the time for that passed long ago....we kicked the can down the road and now we are essentialy in an untenable position.

I think the best we can hope for is to do what the U.K did in regards to Hong Kong.....extract a ot of promises from them and then let them take control of Taiwan....by the time they renege on their promises most folks will have forgotten about the whole thing.

Unfortunately....ceding Taiwan will not stop the CCP....but it would buy us some time.....time we need to revamp our military, time to figure out how to stop their hypersonic missles, time for us to build more and better missles ....especially hypersonic missles......we lag behind both China and russia in regards to hypersonic missles................and prepare for the ultimate show down.

One of the best things we can do now....was suggested by of all people hillary clinton....build multiple crusise missle bases in the pacific within striking range of China....and makes these bases as resistant as possible to nukes.....arm the missles with nuclear warheads that are not radioactive I forget the term for them at the moment....that way if we have to use nukes we will not contaminate the world with radioactivity......The 'Neutron bomb' is what I was trying to think of.

and we can hope that China will one day settle down and not be consumed with the desire to dominate the world......wishful thinking....but it might calm some nerves.

No, that is not China's raison d'être, simply being one among many.

Worth reading.


“…the hope of producing a benign People’s Republic of China utterly failed. The Communist Party of China deceived the West into believing that its system and the Party-ruled People’s Liberation Army were peaceful and posed no threat. In fact, these misguided policies produced the emergence of a twenty-first century evil empire even more dangerous than a Cold War version of the Soviet Union.”
Bill Gertz, “Deceiving The Sky”




The Democrats will not protect American and the world from China.

"Under Obama, American security was damaged by ignoring and then covering up China's massive theft of American technology. Abroad, inaction by Obama facilitated the Chinese domination over the strategic South China Sea. After claiming 3,200 acres of new islands, China deployed advanced anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles on the island in what the CIA described as China's Crimea, a stealth take-over similar to the Russian annexation of Ukraine's peninsula in 2014."
Bill Gertz, “Deceiving the Sky: Inside Communist China's Drive for Global Supremacy,” p. 6

 

[Moonglow]

No, that is not China's raison d'être, simply being one among many.

View attachment 677183
Worth reading.


“…the hope of producing a benign People’s Republic of China utterly failed. The Communist Party of China deceived the West into believing that its system and the Party-ruled People’s Liberation Army were peaceful and posed no threat. In fact, these misguided policies produced the emergence of a twenty-first century evil empire even more dangerous than a Cold War version of the Soviet Union.”
Bill Gertz, “Deceiving The Sky”




The Democrats will not protect American and the world from China.

"Under Obama, American security was damaged by ignoring and then covering up China's massive theft of American technology. Abroad, inaction by Obama facilitated the Chinese domination over the strategic South China Sea. After claiming 3,200 acres of new islands, China deployed advanced anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles on the island in what the CIA described as China's Crimea, a stealth take-over similar to the Russian annexation of Ukraine's peninsula in 2014."
Bill Gertz, “Deceiving the Sky: Inside Communist China's Drive for Global Supremacy,” p. 6

There is not a government on the planet that doesn't have agressive stance because they are humans and humans always scheme.