Child Support is unfair

[koshergrl]

So do you suggest men should be able to just take custody from custodial mother's at their say-so?

Yes it is difficult to get custody away from someone who has already been awarded custody, or who has been the primary caregiver. And it's reasonable that a parent not be able to walk into a child's life and just take them away from the parent they are accustomed to living with on a whim. There has to be a reason for doing it. A drug addict is usually an unfit parent; however I suspect there's much, much more to this story. There always is.

 

[PaulS1950]

So do you suggest men should be able to just take custody from custodial mother's at their say-so?

Yes it is difficult to get custody away from someone who has already been awarded custody, or who has been the primary caregiver. And it's reasonable that a parent not be able to walk into a child's life and just take them away from the parent they are accustomed to living with on a whim. There has to be a reason for doing it. A drug addict is usually an unfit parent; however I suspect there's much, much more to this story. There always is.

Yes, there is much more to the story - it has been on-going for 28 years. Don't be obtuse!

Before she was the primary caregiver, I was. She was an addict. I stayed with her for 13 years before I realized that no matter how much I gave she was still an addict and it wasn't going to change until she needed it to change. I tried to get custody but the court saw fit to award the custody of our children to a practicing addict - even against the testimony of two care-givers at the treatment center. I raised my kids, I was the active parent, I was the one who took them places and did things with them. There is a lot more to the story but it revolves around people who had the same attitude that you represent here - there has to be a reason that a man wants to take his kids out of harms way - IF they are in harms way. The court could not believe that a mother could want drugs more than her children even when it was pointed out many times throughout the 11 year period.

you give yourself away with this: "A drug addict is usually an unfit parent; however I suspect there's much, much more to this story. There always is."

Really? ALWAYS? She is a drug addict, that pretty much sums it up. Everything in her life revolved around her next dose. Her kids were secondary to the drugs. She was involved in an accident and stumbled away to go find her license - leaving the scene of an accident because she was so high she couldn't walk. Falling "asleep" in her dinner plate at her daughter's thanksgiving dinner. Stealing alcohol from her family members to supplement her drugs until they told her to stop putting water in to replace the alcohol because it ruined the drink for everyone else. Yep, you're right there is more, a lot more but nothing to justify placing her in control of two beautiful children during the their adolescent years.

Sometimes the dad is the BEST person to raise the kids. Not all women are "mothers".
I can't honestly think of any reason that a thinking individual would award the custody of children to an addict - EVER!

 

[JeannieD]

Be careful what you ask for. For the sake of this discussion, let's say a parent has custody of one child and the child has their own room in a 2 bedroom apartment. Custodial parent is responsible for 1/2 the rent for their room, 25% of the remainder and the non custodial parent pays the remaining 25% of the rent for the child to have their own room. Apply this math to all of the utilities in the household. Then we come to the monthly food bill - split the same way. Medical and dental are 50/50. Same for clothes, same for entertainment/extracurricular activities the child is engaged in.

If all these expenses were put into a spreadsheet format and submitted to the family court I think that the court ordered child support payments would often fall short of covering all of that.

If you suggest that a custodial parent should submit receipts every time the kid consumes a Happy Meal, yes, that is an attempt to control. Little things add up. As much as it would suit your purpose to believe she is lavishing her new boyfriend with gifts on your dime, or getting her nails done with your money, it probably is not the case.

 

[sealadaigh]

In 1984, in Washington State, the only way for a father to get custody of his children was to prove, in court that she was an unfit mother. The fact that my ex was in a drug rehab center was an indication that she was, in fact, getting the help she needed.
The fact that she has been a practicing addict for the last 28 years shows they were wrong.
I paid my child support and I paid more because the state said I had to pay even after my children moved out because they couldn't live with an addict any more. She was fired from a nursing training center for "tapping into patients meds", She was not prosecuted because she went into treatment. Again, "doing what she needed to do" to be a responsible parent. She left our kids with her sister while she was partying to the point where she ended up in the hospital. but again she was "doing what was necessary" to clean up.
My mail was not delivered to my kids. They were threatened that she would commit suicide if they went to live with me. I called and sometimes got to talk to them. I travelled the 300 miles to visit and sometimes got to see them. Once they were of age and they got to know me things changed drastically. I gave them copies of the letters that I had sent, poems I had written and let them look through my journal. we have an excellent relationship now and they have quit believing the things their mom said about me because it just doesn't fit. My daughter, with her own family now, can't understand how her mother could do the things she does. She never did get the duality of the addict. I always told her that there were two people there - one was her mother and the other was the addict. As long as the addict is in control the mother is absent. She still doesn't understand that and cries when her mother flakes out on remembering days they are supposed to spend together or time when my daughter is in the hospital. "how can a mother forget that her daughter has surgery?" is what she asks. I try to remind her about the addict but she can't understand. My son and I have a good relationship - maybe better than my daughter and I because he understands that his mother is absent. He hopes for the day she returns but knows it is one of those things he has no control over.
I was fortunate - I raised my kids for the first nine years and tried to see them every other week. There was no summers or Christmas vacations with them just visit when their mother didn't say they were sick and could come outside. There was lots of worry and many phone calls and letters to Child Protective Services but none of that was real to them. I was, after all, just a father who was vindictive toward an ex-wife.
Supporting my children was never a burden to me - it was my right and responsibility. It wasn't always easy and I was late with payments twice in the 11 years of payments. I did have to separately pay back the welfare my ex was on between our separation and the final decree even though the decree called out the separation date it didn't matter. As long as we weren't legally divorced I had to repay what the state paid - in addition to the support I paid in the interim. So we all supported her habit and remarkably she is still alive - but not well. She probably won't live long enough to collect the SS benefits the court awarded her. My daughter still wants her mother and my son is losing hope. I have two of the best kids I could ever hope to have and they love me too. I am so proud of who they have become inspite of the way the system condemned them to live with an absentee mother and a drug addict.

Child support is not fair; it doesn't make up for all that you and your children lose because you are not there to share their lives. The system is not fair because it allows bad things to happen to children who are already in shambles because two adults can't put their kids first and do what is best for them.

i live in washington state too. i still have a hard time talking about it.

you're right.

 

[saveliberty]

Be careful what you ask for. For the sake of this discussion, let's say a parent has custody of one child and the child has their own room in a 2 bedroom apartment. Custodial parent is responsible for 1/2 the rent for their room, 25% of the remainder and the non custodial parent pays the remaining 25% of the rent for the child to have their own room. Apply this math to all of the utilities in the household. Then we come to the monthly food bill - split the same way. Medical and dental are 50/50. Same for clothes, same for entertainment/extracurricular activities the child is engaged in.

If all these expenses were put into a spreadsheet format and submitted to the family court I think that the court ordered child support payments would often fall short of covering all of that.

If you suggest that a custodial parent should submit receipts every time the kid consumes a Happy Meal, yes, that is an attempt to control. Little things add up. As much as it would suit your purpose to believe she is lavishing her new boyfriend with gifts on your dime, or getting her nails done with your money, it probably is not the case.

I think you missed my point entirely. My ex made three times my income and we had joint custody. I paid her support. It would have been nice to provide that for my kids directly, instead of it looking like mom provided everything and dad nothing.

 

[saveliberty]

Should we start counting the times visitation and custody have been used as a weapon against fathers?

 

[PaulS1950]

Koshergrl,
Why is it that your posts all have the common theme that the dads are always the bad guys?
We are just people too. Most of us pay the support to our children regardless of whether mom is or is not providing a decent home. Some don't - some women are lousy mothers or abusive or whatever. People are people. There are good and bad in every aspect of life. No group, No catagory is free from bad.
You sound a bit vindictive....

 

[saveliberty]

koshergrl you sound like a less than objective individual on this subject and really have no business being involved in such decisions due to your obvious bias. I can probably show you just as many women who use visitation as a weapon against the father. That side of the equation is well protected. Visitation is at best a crap shoot for the dad. Please show me the number of women brought up on charges by the CPS people against moms for failure to provide visitation.

 

[Intense]

Reminder. The CDZ Vision is Civil Discourse. This takes precedence over subject matter. Threads in constant Violation are at risk of being Closed and Trashed. Hint.... Learn to state your positions without insulting each other. No Ridicule, No Name Calling, No Put Downs of other Posters.

 

[saveliberty]

Correct as usual Intense. I will withdraw from this subject.

 

[Katzndogz]

I received $11 two days ago. Yeah, child support is so unfair.
What is unfair is my child asking to see his dad and me telling him he is out of town. He isn't but I can't tell my kid his dad is a piece of crap.

Is Dad under any obligation at all to see your son? This is an opportunity for you to teach your son that life is unfair and we don't always get what we want. We can't force other people do anything they don't want to do. And, you might explain to him how it happened that you had sex with a man that was a piece of crap.

Dad refusing to see his son is NOT unfair. It simply IS. It is a circumstance beyond the control of either of you. Children need to deal with these circumstances now so that they can deal with it later in life when they find out their control over what other people do is severely limited.

 

[High_Gravity]

I received $11 two days ago. Yeah, child support is so unfair.
What is unfair is my child asking to see his dad and me telling him he is out of town. He isn't but I can't tell my kid his dad is a piece of crap.

Is Dad under any obligation at all to see your son? This is an opportunity for you to teach your son that life is unfair and we don't always get what we want. We can't force other people do anything they don't want to do. And, you might explain to him how it happened that you had sex with a man that was a piece of crap.

Dad refusing to see his son is NOT unfair. It simply IS. It is a circumstance beyond the control of either of you. Children need to deal with these circumstances now so that they can deal with it later in life when they find out their control over what other people do is severely limited.

Well depending on the age of the child, that conversation would have to be at a later time.

 

[Aristotle]

koshergrl you sound like a less than objective individual on this subject and really have no business being involved in such decisions due to your obvious bias. I can probably show you just as many women who use visitation as a weapon against the father. That side of the equation is well protected. Visitation is at best a crap shoot for the dad. Please show me the number of women brought up on charges by the CPS people against moms for failure to provide visitation.

Right which is why I am withdrawing from the discussion. There are too many moms referring to their own situation and not looking st the other end of the spectrum. The OP is clear.

 

[Aristotle]

******Warning profanity is used in video******

The following video is proof that demonstrates that the state does get a percentage from men who pay child support. In the following video, this man was to pay child support in the amount of $250 but was able to get it down to $25 a month.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Hog_upvX8&feature=youtube_gdata_player]Fighting Greedy Mother's And The Unfair Child Support System And Winning - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Aristotle]

Still think child support is fair? In the following video this man found out he is the father of a 15 year-old girl and ended up in over $10k in the rear, and even spent one night in jail. He later got a DNA test proving he is not the father and even got a notorized letter with the mother's signature and acknowledging his exclusion from child support....Guess what happened next? (I apologize for the low quality)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1nQH8sfV3Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player]Corrupt Child Support System in the United States - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Aristotle]

This is the same guy as the previous video.....

You guys still think child support system is fair? Watch this video

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O7NCIL2F1w&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O7NCIL2F1w&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

 

[koshergrl]

What I see evidenced here is an example of people being unable to see anything except in absolutes. If they don't like the way their custody/child support arrangement has worked out, the system needs to be revamped and there is prejudice. If someone points out the reasons the system works the way it does, then that person hates dads.

That's not the way it is at all, at least on not on my side. I've said, and I mean it when I say it, I don't dislike dads. But my experiences in this field, both personal and professional, mean I have a better understanding than most of what the reality of child support and custody is. The reality is not what these few guys are painting it as. When I ask for particulars about things like the SPECIFIC services they've been denied (as they claim) then that cues a personal attack ('you just hate dads'). When I ask whether or not a person who is bemoaning the fact that he doesn't have custody actually FILED for custody, I get silence. When I provide evidence that the climate 25 years ago most certainly did NOT favor women, my evidence is touted as "conspiracy" (despite the multiple studies that were referenced in the article).

The fact of the matter is...men don't file for custody as often as women do. Does that indicate a bias towards women? No. It indicates a lack of motivation in men, if anything. Who may later apply for custody, and be denied by the courts as the children are already situation and comfortable in their situation. Does that indicate bias? No, that indicates that the best interests of the child take precedence over the desires of fathers who weren't interested in custody previously.

Do only 1 in five dads have custody? Probably that's somewhat accurate. Does that represent a bias towards mothers? No, considering only 2 out of five dads ever file for custody. That works out to about 50 percent of dads who ask for custody actually getting it, and that doesn't illustrate any bias at all.

There is a network of *support* for non-custody dads that touts the myth of bias against fathers, but those groups are largely populated by disgruntled fathers who have been denied custody for very valid reasons. Perhaps the mothers are a mess...but the court has determined that for whatever reason, the children are happier and safer with her than with the dads.

Child support, even when it is paid, is typically nowhere near enough to pay 1/2 the expense of raising a child. This means that custodial parents are typically always playing catch up....they get the child support check which goes into the pot...the idea that non-custodial parents should be able to dictate to the custodial parent how, what, and when that money is spent is ludicrous, and everybody..the courts, attorneys, and reasonable people, recognize that. It's just a way to exert control over the custodial parent by a parent who is frustrated and angry.

When there is abuse and when the children are neglected then the non custodial parent has a leg to stand on when they petition the court to take a look at the situation. But just because you resent the fact that you pay child support and mom took a vacation to go to Barbados with her boyfriend is not indicative of any abuse of children, nor does it indicate that child support is being used "inappropriately". And it never will be. Thankfull, the courts understand that.

 

[JeannieD]

Be careful what you ask for. For the sake of this discussion, let's say a parent has custody of one child and the child has their own room in a 2 bedroom apartment. Custodial parent is responsible for 1/2 the rent for their room, 25% of the remainder and the non custodial parent pays the remaining 25% of the rent for the child to have their own room. Apply this math to all of the utilities in the household. Then we come to the monthly food bill - split the same way. Medical and dental are 50/50. Same for clothes, same for entertainment/extracurricular activities the child is engaged in.

If all these expenses were put into a spreadsheet format and submitted to the family court I think that the court ordered child support payments would often fall short of covering all of that.

If you suggest that a custodial parent should submit receipts every time the kid consumes a Happy Meal, yes, that is an attempt to control. Little things add up. As much as it would suit your purpose to believe she is lavishing her new boyfriend with gifts on your dime, or getting her nails done with your money, it probably is not the case.

I think you missed my point entirely. My ex made three times my income and we had joint custody. I paid her support. It would have been nice to provide that for my kids directly, instead of it looking like mom provided everything and dad nothing.

I wasn't replying directly to you or addressing your specific situation; if I had been, I would have quoted you in my response. When kids are little, they don't (or at least shouldn't) have any concept of who pays for what - they take it for granted that things just are. When they get old enough to understand such things, hopefully a conversation can be had with them. I believe I was 12 or 13 when I became aware of these things.

 

[koshergrl]

******Warning profanity is used in video******

The following video is proof that demonstrates that the state does get a percentage from men who pay child support. In the following video, this man was to pay child support in the amount of $250 but was able to get it down to $25 a month.

Fighting Greedy Mother's And The Unfair Child Support System And Winning - YouTube

The state gets a percentage of the child support when the mothers are on assistance. If a mom is on tanf or accrues a shitload of medical bills while on medicaid, the state will attach arrears paid by the non-custodial parent to go towards those bills...and that is addressed in the application that she fills out when she applies for aid.

 

[Aristotle]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxfJfW9fqo0&feature=youtube_gdata_player]Wife's Affair and Paternity Fraud - YouTube[/ame]