Challeng for anti-Evolutionists

[LuvRPgrl]

Same place I do I suppose. If God created "everything" that would include evil and Satan. If not who created Satan?

Evil is not a "THING" , it is a verb. Verbs are actions carried out by people. It is not a "THING" created by God, things are nouns. Can you touch evil? can you see it? can you smell it? NO, things that are created, you can touch, see, smell them....

Hence, God did not create evil

However, H Celine, Powerman and company, dont really want answers, dont want truth, they have already established in their minds what they "WANT" to know, even though it has been explained quite clearly, evil is not a thing to be created. Discussing this is more of a waste of time than discussing the Iraq war with a liberal.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Evil is not a "THING" , it is a verb. Verbs are actions carried out by people. It is not a "THING" created by God, things are nouns. Can you touch evil? can you see it? can you smell it? NO, things that are created, you can touch, see, smell them....

Hence, God did not create evil

However, H Celine, Powerman and company, dont really want answers, dont want truth, they have already established in their minds what they "WANT" to know, even though it has been explained quite clearly, evil is not a thing to be created. Discussing this is more of a waste of time than discussing the Iraq war with a liberal.

No, you are wrong. According to wordnet.princeton.edu, a verb is "a word that serves as the predicate of a sentence ~or~ a content word that denotes an action or a state. Here's a few more definitions of what a verb is if you feel the need for more grammatical instruction:Define:verb - Google Search
Dictionary.com lists the word "evil" as occupying both the adjective and noun parts of speech as well as the adverb part of speech archaically. It is not a verb. Dictionary.com - Evil One can be evil or do evil, but one cannot evil. How did you pass your highschool exit exam not knowing the parts of speech?:huh:

And I just want to re-emphasize that evil can, in fact, be a "thing." Any word that can be a noun can be a "thing" and, as I have demonstrated, "evil" can be a noun. For reference, see above link to Dictionary.com.

Concepts and ideas are not created?

 

[manu1959]

Wouldn't an omnipotent creator like God know beforehand what decisions his creations would make? Isn't that what omnipotence is all about?

God is not omnipotent...you are made in his image...

 

[Hagbard Celine]

God is not omnipotent...you are made in his image...

Does that mean that humans are supposed to be omnipotent? Because if it does then I got gypped big-time.

 

[manu1959]

Does that mean that humans are supposed to be omnipotent? Because if it does then I got gypped big-time.

i trust you are having fun being obtuse

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Originally Posted by Hagbard Celine
Does that mean that humans are supposed to be omnipotent? Because if it does then I got gypped big-time.

i trust you are having fun being obtuse

 

[manu1959]

Excellent.....i am glad you could choose that joy and were not forced to do so by the omnipotent creator of evil

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Excellent.....i am glad you could choose that joy and were not forced to do so by the omnipotent creator of evil

Once again Manny, I indulge in the illusion of free will. But that by no means proves it is real. My fate, just like yours, is pre-determined.

 

[manu1959]

Once again Manny, I indulge in the illusion of free will. But that by no means proves it is real. My fate, just like yours, is pre-determined.

death is inevitable....what you decide to experience along the way and how you get there is up to you

 

[Zhukov]

The tree's mere existence creates the potential for evil to occur. The potential for evil would not exist if God had not created the tree.

First you said he created evil, now you are arguing he allowed the potential for evil, with which I entirely agree.

He gave us the ability to go through a door, then he created a door to see what we would do. Creating the door is not the same as making someone walk through it, nor does it have any bearing on what's on the other side of the door.

Plus, an omnipotent God and free will cannot exist together because the omnipotent God would always know the final outcome of the person's fate.

How would his knowledge alter free will?

So either God's power is limited and he cannot see our fates, leaving them undetermined, or our fates are pre-determined because God already knows what we'll do. It can't go both ways.

Your thinking god is a three-dimensional being like you or I. He's not. He exists outside time. Relative to god your actions aren't pre-determined, it's just that they already happened. God isn't watching as time unfolds, god can stand back and see 'all time' in one glance.

But the fact remains that there would never have been evil if God had not created the potential for it by creating the tree and putting the serpent in the garden to tempt man.

No, I don't see the connection that creating the potential of something is the same as creating that something. Neither have you demonstrated how that is. You just state it as fact. Creating the potential for evil is the same as creating evil? No, I don't accept that argument at all. McDonalds created the potential for you to get fat, but did they create 'fat'?

I've got another one for you. If we are made in God's image, wouldn't it stand to reason that God is both good and evil just like we are?

No, god is technically capable of evil, but he's prefectly good. 'Us in his image' means we are intelligent and have free will, just like him, nothing more.

But what I'm arguing is that the choices we make only seem free to us because, unlike God, we can't see our own futures.

They are free to us. Just because you can't see the decisions you will make in the future now, it doesn't follow that there is some constraint on your will. Viewed outside time you've already freely made every decision you ever will. The fact that you are only aware of the decisions you've made in your past does not change that fact.

Wouldn't an omnipotent creator like God know beforehand what decisions his creations would make? Isn't that what omnipotence is all about?

Sure, what's your point? Is it that if God created Lucifer and knew Lucifer would turn to evil then God created evil? Well that would be the same argument you tried with humans and sin. Creating the potential for something is not the same are creating that something.

 

[Bonnie]

http://www.wiccan-refuge.com/omnipotence.html Don't ya love the site?

Wow K you'd make a great sister to dark one, got a henna tattoo we don't know about...... LOL j/k

 

[Hagbard Celine]

First you said he created evil, now you are arguing he allowed the potential for evil, with which I entirely agree.

Creating the potential for evil and knowing for sure that evil will be born as a result through omnipotence is the same thing as creating evil.

He gave us the ability to go through a door, then he created a door to see what we would do. Creating the door is not the same as making someone walk through it, nor does it have any bearing on what's on the other side of the door.

God created the potential for evil knowing full-well what humans would do with it. God is omnipotent, there are no surprises with God.

How would his knowledge alter free will?

If someone already knows how your life will turn out, what you will do with your life, the exact moment of your birth and death, no decision or action you take during your life is free because the result is already pre-determined. We only have the illusion of freewill because unlike God, we cannot see our own fates.

Your thinking god is a three-dimensional being like you or I. He's not. He exists outside time. Relative to god your actions aren't pre-determined, it's just that they already happened. God isn't watching as time unfolds, god can stand back and see 'all time' in one glance.

No, you're wrong. You don't know what I'm thinking. I'm taking into account the fact that God created time. God created every aspect of reality including abstract ideas, time, the physical laws of nature, gravity, everything. In the line of argument that I'm making in this thread, nothing is possible in reality unless God makes it possible. God can see all time in one glance, so obviously he knows what your past, present and future decisions and actions will be simultaneously all the time. So, keeping that in mind, you contradicted yourself here by saying "God isn't watching as time unfolds" and then saying "god can stand back and see 'all time' in one glance." God is omnipotent, which means he knows all that there is to know. You said it yourself, God is timeless and he can stand back and see your life, its beginning, middle and end in a glance. So if God can do that and know how your life will turn out, you would logically be unable to make any decisions freely that God doesn't already know you will make, which would make your fate pre-determined. It only seems that we have free-will because we cannot see our own futures. The fact that God has already pre-determined our destinies negates the notion of the free choice to honor or rebuke God because God already knows before we are born, who will and will not recieve salvation.

No, I don't see the connection that creating the potential of something is the same as creating that something. Neither have you demonstrated how that is. You just state it as fact. Creating the potential for evil is the same as creating evil? No, I don't accept that argument at all. McDonalds created the potential for you to get fat, but did they create 'fat'?

But the difference between McDonalds and God is that God is omnipotent. He created time so he knew what would happen before it happened if he created a means for man to fall from grace. If we logically analyze the Genesis story and take into account all the facts listed in the Bible, the only conclusion is that God, being omnipotent, would have known that by creating the serpent and the tree and designing man the way he did, that man would disobey him. And McDonalds didn't create fat, but God sure as hell did when he included it in his creation. Nothing that is in creation would exist if God had not included it or a variant of it in his original grand design.

No, god is technically capable of evil, but he's prefectly good. 'Us in his image' means we are intelligent and have free will, just like him, nothing more.

I know what "in his image" means. Many people misinterpret it to mean in his "physical" image. But if that were true, chimps, gorillas and other simians would be lumped into that category as well and I doubt very many "devout Christians" would agree with doing that. "In his image" obviously refers to our sentient condition. But we are both good AND evil. Wouldn't it stand to reason that God is as well? I mean he did kill millions of people in the great flood and when he destroyed cities and killed first-borns and drowned the Egyptian armies and tortured Jonah, etc. Plus something that came from God led to the emergence of Satan and sin in the creation. If God's being did not include evil, it would not exist in reality.

They are free to us. Just because you can't see the decisions you will make in the future now, it doesn't follow that there is some constraint on your will. Viewed outside time you've already freely made every decision you ever will. The fact that you are only aware of the decisions you've made in your past does not change that fact.

Well that's just what I've been saying. We live under the veil of free-will because of the constraints of time we live under in our reality. God doesn't live under those constraints, so he knows all past, present and future decisions you will make and what the outcomes of those decisions will be. Because he knows this, your life is pre-determined. You can't surprise God by making a random decision because he already knows what you will do.

Sure, what's your point? Is it that if God created Lucifer and knew Lucifer would turn to evil then God created evil? Well that would be the same argument you tried with humans and sin. Creating the potential for something is not the same are creating that something.

It isn't when you apply it to beings like us who cannot see the future. But imagine a being, not God, say an alien. The alien is a psychic with the ability to see through time effortlessly in the past, present or future. The alien sees the future and sees himself building a weapon that will be stolen by his enemy and used to destroy his planet. Knowing this and how it will turn out, the alien decides to build the weapon anyway. That's the same as God creating the tree of knowledge, knowing all the time that the serpent would tempt man and man would disobey.

 

[dmp]

If someone already knows how your life will turn out, what you will do with your life, the exact moment of your birth and death, no decision or action you take during your life is free because the result is already pre-determined.

(Sigh).

Look. You simply REFUSE To get it, brother. You've been presented SOUND arugments, and you simply do not read them.

KNOWING something will happen ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT 'MAKE' that thing happen. Holy Crap.

I recorded the Seahawks-Texans game last sunday. My wife didn't watch the game live.

While we watched it I would tell her 'Watch this - Shaun will bust a 23 yard TD run'

I had the FOREKNOWLEDGE of what Shaun would do. I did not MAKE Shaun do it, did I?

Think of God has having Tivo'd our entire lives -remember, cuz he isn't bound by the constraints of time you and i are bound by. He can see ANY moment in time he chooses. He knows ahead of time what our decisions will bring to our lives. Why? He's already seen the 'game' so to speak.

If you can't understand at this point, it's because you refuse to understand, brother.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

(Sigh).

Look. You simply REFUSE To get it, brother. You've been presented SOUND arugments, and you simply do not read them.

KNOWING something will happen ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT 'MAKE' that thing happen. Holy Crap.

I recorded the Seahawks-Texans game last sunday. My wife didn't watch the game live.

While we watched it I would tell her 'Watch this - Shaun will bust a 23 yard TD run'

I had the FOREKNOWLEDGE of what Shaun would do. I did not MAKE Shaun do it, did I?

Think of God has having Tivo'd our entire lives -remember, cuz he isn't bound by the constraints of time you and i are bound by. He can see ANY moment in time he chooses. He knows ahead of time what our decisions will bring to our lives. Why? He's already seen the 'game' so to speak.

If you can't understand at this point, it's because you refuse to understand, brother.

Unfortunately for all of us, you're not an omnipotent being and you didn't create Shaun or the reality in which he lives and plays football. God did though. If God knows what we will do before we do it, our lives are pre-determined. Understand the words that are coming out of mouth? I'm speaking the Queen's English here. Fore-knowledge = Pre-determination. I can't make it simpler than that. I'm sorry Brodey.

 

[dmp]

Fore-knowledge = Pre-determination.

That's your problem - you don't know what words mean.

fore·knowl·edge ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fôr-nlj, fr-, fôrnl-, fr-)
n.

Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence; prescience

____________________________________

pre·des·tine ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-dstn)
tr.v. pre·des·tined, pre·des·tin·ing, pre·des·tines

1. To fix upon, decide, or decree in advance; foreordain.
2. Theology. To foreordain or elect by divine will or decree


Your argument is akin to arguing 2+3=6.

 

[no1tovote4]

Unfortunately for all of us, you're not an omnipotent being and you didn't create Shaun or the reality in which he lives and plays football. God did though. If God knows what we will do before we do it, our lives are pre-determined. Understand the words that are coming out of mouth? I'm speaking the Queen's English here. Fore-knowledge = Pre-determination. I can't make it simpler than that. I'm sorry Brodey.

We'll work on this concept for a bit. Worry it around so to speak. Is Foreknowledge the same as Predetermination?

We'll start with definitions:
Foreknowledge:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=foreknowledge

Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence; prescience.

Predetermination:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=predetermination

1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: “These factors predetermine to a large extent the outcome” (Jessica Mitford).
2. To influence or sway toward an action or opinion; predispose.

Knowing what one will do is not the same as making them do it. One must have one to be able to do the other, one builds on the other. However the necessary next step of making them do something isn't as clear. If God could know everything you were going to do, but still doesn't make you do the right thing is it possible your life wasn't predetermined, even with foreknowledge of the events? It seems that one doesn't necessarily mean the other is true.

 

[manu1959]

does god know what i will do before i do it?

if yes then there is no free will as my "choices" are known

if no then there is free will as my "choices" are not known

 

[dmp]

does god know what i will do before i do it?

if yes then there is no free will as my "choices" are known

if no then there is free will as my "choices" are not known

You, as well, are confusing the terms Doug and I explained - based on the dictionary - above.

 

[no1tovote4]

does god know what i will do before i do it?

if yes then there is no free will as my "choices" are known

if no then there is free will as my "choices" are not known

Knowing what you will do doesn't change your choice. If God made the choice for you then it would mean you had no free will, if He allows you to make your own choice regardless of foreknowledge your free will is still pristine.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

God created time. On this I think we all agree. So God can step back and see time at "a glance." If God made time and can see all time, past, present and future, that means the events that occur within the confines of time, i.e. our actions/choices--our fates, are part of the system God created. So if what we do in the future has already been established by God, that means we have no actual control over what we do now and how that will affect our futures. If we could control our own fates using free will, we would be able to determine when and how or if we die and every aspect of what happens to us in our lives. But we can't. We are at the mercy of the future God has in store for us.