Cash for clunkers

[ba1614]

Doesn't the car need to go to salvage to qualify for the rebate?

 

[Care4all]

The yare paying for the trade in AND giving up to 4500?

2 of our American dealerships were advertising like mad this weekend and they covered it on the news, 4500 plus...up to another 4500 for your car depending on condition...don't know or actually i do not remember seeing the foreign make dealers offering the same...but Ford was and i think chrysler was.....

care

Oh, I get it. This is just creative advertising on the part of your local dealers. If your trade in is worth more than $5,000 you wouldn't settle for $4,500 for junking it. Any car the dealer buys for $9,000 isn't going into the government rebate program...they'll just turn around and sell it for $11,000.

hmmmm...I dunno?

Are you saying that lF I had a car that normally on trade was worth 9k, then they'd resell it for 11k....that in my case, the cash for clunkers money was not even used at all and it was like i just rolled in to buy a new car with my trade?

Because the gvt will not give the $4500 unless they take this car, suv, truck and demolish it, or take it apart for the sale of its parts....

the one negative of this program is that these tankards usually ended up with very poor families that needed them and they will be taken off the road completely so there will be shortage of these type of vehicles in the charity arena....

Ravi, I am totally miffed on what the American Car dealers were advertising.... let me see if i can find one of the local dealer's ads on the internet to see what the "up to $9k" was all about....no promises but maybe I can?

care

 

[Ravi]

2 of our American dealerships were advertising like mad this weekend and they covered it on the news, 4500 plus...up to another 4500 for your car depending on condition...don't know or actually i do not remember seeing the foreign make dealers offering the same...but Ford was and i think chrysler was.....

care

Oh, I get it. This is just creative advertising on the part of your local dealers. If your trade in is worth more than $5,000 you wouldn't settle for $4,500 for junking it. Any car the dealer buys for $9,000 isn't going into the government rebate program...they'll just turn around and sell it for $11,000.

hmmmm...I dunno?

Are you saying that lF I had a car that normally on trade was worth 9k, then they'd resell it for 11k....that in my case, the cash for clunkers money was not even used at all and it was like i just rolled in to buy a new car with my trade?

Because the gvt will not give the $4500 unless they take this car, suv, truck and demolish it, or take it apart for the sale of its parts....

the one negative of this program is that these tankards usually ended up with very poor families that needed them and they will be taken off the road completely so there will be shortage of these type of vehicles in the charity arena....

Ravi, I am totally miffed on what the American Car dealers were advertising.... let me see if i can find one of the local dealer's ads on the internet to see what the "up to $9k" was all about....no promises but maybe I can?

care

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. A dealer would have to be quite stupid to junk a car they could resell at a profit.

If you feel badly about the poor people getting screwed--find someone with a car that qualifies that can't afford a new car. Trade with them. Now you have a clunker that qualifies and they have a decent car. Everyone wins.

 

[ba1614]

Oh, I get it. This is just creative advertising on the part of your local dealers. If your trade in is worth more than $5,000 you wouldn't settle for $4,500 for junking it. Any car the dealer buys for $9,000 isn't going into the government rebate program...they'll just turn around and sell it for $11,000.

hmmmm...I dunno?

Are you saying that lF I had a car that normally on trade was worth 9k, then they'd resell it for 11k....that in my case, the cash for clunkers money was not even used at all and it was like i just rolled in to buy a new car with my trade?

Because the gvt will not give the $4500 unless they take this car, suv, truck and demolish it, or take it apart for the sale of its parts....

the one negative of this program is that these tankards usually ended up with very poor families that needed them and they will be taken off the road completely so there will be shortage of these type of vehicles in the charity arena....

Ravi, I am totally miffed on what the American Car dealers were advertising.... let me see if i can find one of the local dealer's ads on the internet to see what the "up to $9k" was all about....no promises but maybe I can?

care

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. A dealer would have to be quite stupid to junk a car they could resell at a profit.

If you feel badly about the poor people getting screwed--find someone with a car that qualifies that can't afford a new car. Trade with them. Now you have a clunker that qualifies and they have a decent car. Everyone wins.

Great idea, but I recall reading a stipulation that you had to own the vehicle for a certain length of time, 1yr I believe.

 

[Meister]

hmmmm...I dunno?

Are you saying that lF I had a car that normally on trade was worth 9k, then they'd resell it for 11k....that in my case, the cash for clunkers money was not even used at all and it was like i just rolled in to buy a new car with my trade?

Because the gvt will not give the $4500 unless they take this car, suv, truck and demolish it, or take it apart for the sale of its parts....

the one negative of this program is that these tankards usually ended up with very poor families that needed them and they will be taken off the road completely so there will be shortage of these type of vehicles in the charity arena....

Ravi, I am totally miffed on what the American Car dealers were advertising.... let me see if i can find one of the local dealer's ads on the internet to see what the "up to $9k" was all about....no promises but maybe I can?

care

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. A dealer would have to be quite stupid to junk a car they could resell at a profit.

If you feel badly about the poor people getting screwed--find someone with a car that qualifies that can't afford a new car. Trade with them. Now you have a clunker that qualifies and they have a decent car. Everyone wins.

Great idea, but I recall reading a stipulation that you had to own the vehicle for a certain length of time, 1yr I believe.

Your right...1 year

 

[Care4all]

ty ravi...also, i just saw on the c-span that the dealers have to sell the cars to a Salvage Dealer at auction and must show this receipt before the gvt sends them the check for $4500!

 

[Ravi]

hmmmm...I dunno?

Are you saying that lF I had a car that normally on trade was worth 9k, then they'd resell it for 11k....that in my case, the cash for clunkers money was not even used at all and it was like i just rolled in to buy a new car with my trade?

Because the gvt will not give the $4500 unless they take this car, suv, truck and demolish it, or take it apart for the sale of its parts....

the one negative of this program is that these tankards usually ended up with very poor families that needed them and they will be taken off the road completely so there will be shortage of these type of vehicles in the charity arena....

Ravi, I am totally miffed on what the American Car dealers were advertising.... let me see if i can find one of the local dealer's ads on the internet to see what the "up to $9k" was all about....no promises but maybe I can?

care

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. A dealer would have to be quite stupid to junk a car they could resell at a profit.

If you feel badly about the poor people getting screwed--find someone with a car that qualifies that can't afford a new car. Trade with them. Now you have a clunker that qualifies and they have a decent car. Everyone wins.

Great idea, but I recall reading a stipulation that you had to own the vehicle for a certain length of time, 1yr I believe.

I didn't see that. The requirement is that the car must have been registered and insured for the one year period prior to trade in.

 

[Ravi]

ty ravi...also, i just saw on the c-span that the dealers have to sell the cars to a Salvage Dealer at auction and must show this receipt before the gvt sends them the check for $4500!

That makes sense. Otherwise they could sell the care and still collect the rebate.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Cash for clunkers... a dismal failure. Look at the history of govt. programs and see how well they've done. Medicare bankrupt, medicaid bankrupt, social security bankrupt. cars for clunkers bankrupt. Does anyone see a pattern here? And yet there's people who believe the govt. can actually help us.

 

[Care4all]

no, i don't see a pattern at all...the idea of cash for clunkers was to have a great promotion to stimulate car sales for dealers and for the industry and deplete all of the funds.

Because the program WAS A SUCCESS is why they want it to continue, not because it was a failure.

It's silly to spin this as a failure, it actually is the ONLY success they have had with any of the stimulus ideas put in to place.....and credit should be given where credit is due....the auto industry now needs to analyze this success and see where they can on their own, capitalize from it in the future, from their own mark-down kitty or leeway in their markup and repeat this successful promotion in a modified manner.

 

[editec]

Cash for clunkers... a dismal failure. Look at the history of govt. programs and see how well they've done. Medicare bankrupt, medicaid bankrupt, social security bankrupt. cars for clunkers bankrupt. Does anyone see a pattern here? And yet there's people who believe the govt. can actually help us.

The only pattern I see is you pronouncing things a dismal failure that you probably know nothing about.

Please explain to us why you think the CFC program failed its mission.

 

[Navy1960]

I'm sorry Care I could not disagree more on this issue, while many rush to trade in their cars and get this money from the Govt. in the end the only people it helps is anyone connected to the new car industry. Correct me if I'm wrong here but, didn't we just through bailing them out? However, we all know that didn't work because they went into bankruptcy anyway and we ended up owning one of them. I pointed out just a few of the problems with this program not to mention it shows the Administrations economic team "again" total incompetence in prediction and modeling. This program was supposed to have enough money to last according the experts in the Obama Administration 4 months it lasted what? 4 days? What does that tell you about the same people who are doing the economic models on healthcare. Further, by removing 250,000 cars off the used car market you eliminate a source of cars for an entire segment of society , young people, construction, those not able to afford new cars,. The charity agencies that depend on car donations are all down because of this program not to mention slavage yards that are forced to destroy the most profitable part of the auto salvage. I mentioned before that this program also puts many people into debt that need not be in debt because of this program. It seems to me that we have already bailed out the car companies and there is no need to bail them out once again at the expense of other industries , but I sometimes forget that we do have those political ties that need to be paid back ...

 

[Lonestar_logic]

no, i don't see a pattern at all...the idea of cash for clunkers was to have a great promotion to stimulate car sales for dealers and for the industry and deplete all of the funds.

Because the program WAS A SUCCESS is why they want it to continue, not because it was a failure.

It's silly to spin this as a failure, it actually is the ONLY success they have had with any of the stimulus ideas put in to place.....and credit should be given where credit is due....the auto industry now needs to analyze this success and see where they can on their own, capitalize from it in the future, from their own mark-down kitty or leeway in their markup.

A success for who? The buying spree maybe good for the car companies, but only for the short term and for certain car models. All the while adding billions more to the deficit. But what's another couple a billion when we're trillions in debt already huh?

They're basically taking off the market, vehicles that (while get lesser gas mileage) are perfectly functioning vehicles. Vehicles that low income buyers would find are well within their price range. The fact that old cars get destroyed (as opposed to having parts recycled) harm automotive recyclers. According to an article from the Associated Press, engines and drive trains account for 60% of a recycler’s revenues.

Auto recyclers leery of cash for clunkers

But taking the argument one step further, it’s actually quite anti-green as destroying those old parts (as opposed to actually recycling) means that new parts have to be produced for replacements and/or the cost of the parts remaining increases for those who least can afford to pay (the program calls for the engines to be destroyed via a solution that must get poured into the old car’s engine and therefore, not recycled).

And this article analyzes the number of trade-ins that would have occurred anyway (200,000 every three months) vs. the program (222,000 or 286,000) according to Edmunds.com. The linked article above article specifically examines the cost of the program to the taxpayer in connection with the marginal increase in the number of cars traded in. When examined in this context, the author argues that each car costs the US taxpayer either $45,354 or $11,628, depending on the exact number of rebates at the $4500 amount vs. the $3500 amount.

And you call this a success?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Cash for clunkers... a dismal failure. Look at the history of govt. programs and see how well they've done. Medicare bankrupt, medicaid bankrupt, social security bankrupt. cars for clunkers bankrupt. Does anyone see a pattern here? And yet there's people who believe the govt. can actually help us.

The only pattern I see is you pronouncing things a dismal failure that you probably know nothing about.

Please explain to us why you think the CFC program failed its mission.

Then please enlighten me on how each of the programs I mentioned have been successful. Then we'll see just how much you know.

 

[Care4all]

this thread IS NOT about medicare or social security lonestar....it IS ABOUT cash for clunkers, so how about answering editec's question, I'd like to hear your reasoning on why you believe this part of the stimulus was a failure?

 

[Care4all]

no, i don't see a pattern at all...the idea of cash for clunkers was to have a great promotion to stimulate car sales for dealers and for the industry and deplete all of the funds.

Because the program WAS A SUCCESS is why they want it to continue, not because it was a failure.

It's silly to spin this as a failure, it actually is the ONLY success they have had with any of the stimulus ideas put in to place.....and credit should be given where credit is due....the auto industry now needs to analyze this success and see where they can on their own, capitalize from it in the future, from their own mark-down kitty or leeway in their markup.

A success for who? The buying spree maybe good for the car companies, but only for the short term and for certain car models. All the while adding billions more to the deficit. But what's another couple a billion when we're trillions in debt already huh?

They're basically taking off the market, vehicles that (while get lesser gas mileage) are perfectly functioning vehicles. Vehicles that low income buyers would find are well within their price range. The fact that old cars get destroyed (as opposed to having parts recycled) harm automotive recyclers. According to an article from the Associated Press, engines and drive trains account for 60% of a recycler’s revenues.

Auto recyclers leery of cash for clunkers

But taking the argument one step further, it’s actually quite anti-green as destroying those old parts (as opposed to actually recycling) means that new parts have to be produced for replacements and/or the cost of the parts remaining increases for those who least can afford to pay (the program calls for the engines to be destroyed via a solution that must get poured into the old car’s engine and therefore, not recycled).

And this article analyzes the number of trade-ins that would have occurred anyway (200,000 every three months) vs. the program (222,000 or 286,000) according to Edmunds.com. The linked article above article specifically examines the cost of the program to the taxpayer in connection with the marginal increase in the number of cars traded in. When examined in this context, the author argues that each car costs the US taxpayer either $45,354 or $11,628, depending on the exact number of rebates at the $4500 amount vs. the $3500 amount.

And you call this a success?

I have no idea where this crapola comes from but for your information, on c-span this morning they had a person going over the program and they specifically said that the auto dealers WILL NOT GET the $4500 unless they show proof that the car was auctioned to a Salvage company who then resells the parts.

I don't know where you get marginal increase in sales...they are reporting on our local news that dealers reported selling more cars this past July than ALL OF LAST YEAR.

I understand the concern for taking these cars off the road...people who did not participate in the program will have to penny up more, that's all....

 

[Care4all]

I'm sorry Care I could not disagree more on this issue, while many rush to trade in their cars and get this money from the Govt. in the end the only people it helps is anyone connected to the new car industry. Correct me if I'm wrong here but, didn't we just through bailing them out? However, we all know that didn't work because they went into bankruptcy anyway and we ended up owning one of them. I pointed out just a few of the problems with this program not to mention it shows the Administrations economic team "again" total incompetence in prediction and modeling. This program was supposed to have enough money to last according the experts in the Obama Administration 4 months it lasted what? 4 days? What does that tell you about the same people who are doing the economic models on healthcare. Further, by removing 250,000 cars off the used car market you eliminate a source of cars for an entire segment of society , young people, construction, those not able to afford new cars,. The charity agencies that depend on car donations are all down because of this program not to mention slavage yards that are forced to destroy the most profitable part of the auto salvage. I mentioned before that this program also puts many people into debt that need not be in debt because of this program. It seems to me that we have already bailed out the car companies and there is no need to bail them out once again at the expense of other industries , but I sometimes forget that we do have those political ties that need to be paid back ...

I wrote these responses on the thread regarding the trend of us collecting less in tax revenues due to the recession...it spells out why I think it is successful...

Well, July and part of august will help, with the cash for clunkers....$2 billion worth of $4500 per trade....car salesmen are on commission, some reports are that in July of this year, some dealerships sold more than ALL of last year...I'd say on average, each person buying a new car probably spent another 15k for their new car... 10k for a small car and 20k for a bigger car after the $4500 rebate...times however many cars sold during these months of the promotion, should also produce taxes on the dealerships, and on the Parent Auto Industry....let alone alot of car dealerships and car salesmen having alot more dough in their pockets to spend in the economy on other things...

More than what they estimated, but also far short of what we need!

Programs like this stimulus, are what we would look for in Retail, to stimulate during a normally down period....we actually need more things like this for the "kick Start"....

Us American citizens OWN the auto industry...yes, we own 70% of the American Auto Industry with the bailouts we have given them...we do have an interest in this working..and not just for the overall health of the economy....

See...now if I were in charge of the auto industry....this little promotion that knocked my socks off with its response and return would have me racking my brains on how I could come up with one of these type promotions on my own...because one thing that this promotion would have told me is that my product is overpriced....we have a saying, that there never is bad products, there is only bad prices...in other words if your product is priced correctly then you would sell it at a good pace, at a good 'turn rate', and every dog if there is a dog is only a dog because you have priced it incorrectly to what the market is willing to pay for it...

The other thing about this promotion is that customers felt they were getting a good deal and the $4500 helped with the down payment for the new car which many probably would not have had or would not have had as much to put down, and because there was so much more put down...CREDIT WAS AVAILABLE for the rest of the car via loan....it is easier to get a loan if you fork up 20% or more for the item you need a loan for....so idealy...this program did help bring in a larger span of eligible customers to buy the product...

hmmmm, i suppose it could be argued whether this is good or bad...but that's another thread to be imo!

Anyway....I wish I worked for them so I could analyze this whole promotion's success and figure out what they should do next on their own to capitalize on what was learned!

and then this:

The other thing that was good for the auto industry was that they got to liquidate stale inventory, opening up the money to cautiously buy new inventory....getting rid of "dead wood" is always a good thing for any business....

Down the road, "new car envy" will take place with those who did not buy a new car on this promotion.... and keeping up with the Jones' will take hold! so future sales will continue at a better pace, after this promotion ends is my bet....

Believe it or not, this also helped the Credit industry which we also need to do well...an awful lot of car loans were made...at, maybe 6% interest?

 

[TT16]

All the cars that have been purchased in the Cash for Clunkers program, on average, get 9 miles per gallon better gas milage than the clunkers traded in. If 250,000 autos have been sold so far getting an average of 9 miles per gallon better milage, how much less are we dependent on foreign oil?

 

[Navy1960]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors and Chrysler LLC asked the government Tuesday for $21.6 billion in additional loans, but the final cost of a bailout of the auto industry could be significantly higher.

The two struggling auto giants have already received a total of $17.4 billion in loans. If they get the new loans they want, the price tag of the bailout would climb to $39 billion.

What's more, $7.5 billion in loans have already been approved for the financing arms of GM and Chrysler. Congress also approved funding last year for $25 billion in loans to help automakers convert their plants to produce more fuel efficient cars.

But dealers and suppliers are also asking for federal aid. And consumers may eventually get further incentives from the government to buy new cars.

All told, it could take up to $130 billion to save Detroit. Here's a breakdown of the rest of the money that might be needed.

Loan guarantees requested by auto parts suppliers: $18.5 billion. The trade groups for parts suppliers are asking loan guarantees for the amount they're owed by domestic automakers. They are also seeking guarantees on other types of commercial loans and help so General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler pay their suppliers more quickly.

Loan guarantees being requested by auto dealers: $5 billion to $20 billion. This is still in the works. But the National Automobile Dealers Association is working on a request for federal loan guarantees to make sure they can get the cash they need to finance their inventories. NADA vice president and general counsel Andrew Koblenz said the range is likely to be in the $5 billion to $20 billion range.

Line of credit being requested by Ford: $9 billion. Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) continues to insist that it shouldn't need federal help, primarily because it locked up financing years before the credit markets dried up.
Auto bailout tab could top $130 billion - Feb. 18, 2009


I'm sorry Care with all the money given to these companies already, programs like this for addtional billion and now they want 2 billion more don't convince me. Especially since you take into consideration the bank bail-out along with the auto bail-out and all the other problems associated with this. What this program is doing is giving more help to an industry that has already received a LOT of help at the expense of many many others. Here is something to consider, rather than actually destroying these cars because someone worships at the alter of global warming in the Administration, perhaps the Govt. could have taken them and auctioned them off and taken that money and paid down the debt? I'm sorry this type of thing IMO just gives me further proof that all this is nothing but giving a little payback to large groups that support their campaigns.

 

[Meister]

no, i don't see a pattern at all...the idea of cash for clunkers was to have a great promotion to stimulate car sales for dealers and for the industry and deplete all of the funds.

Because the program WAS A SUCCESS is why they want it to continue, not because it was a failure.

It's silly to spin this as a failure, it actually is the ONLY success they have had with any of the stimulus ideas put in to place.....and credit should be given where credit is due....the auto industry now needs to analyze this success and see where they can on their own, capitalize from it in the future, from their own mark-down kitty or leeway in their markup and repeat this successful promotion in a modified manner.

It was a failure in that they had no idea that was going to take off as it did. This doesn't bode well for our government....what next are they going to under estimate?
Problem is that it's our tax dollars from the stumulus to the auto industry to keep them afloat, and then it's our tax dollars that are stimulating the purchase of these autos. This is an artificial market, and is really just masking the problem.