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no, i don't see a pattern at all...the idea of cash for clunkers was to have a great promotion to stimulate car sales for dealers and for the industry and deplete all of the funds.
Because the program WAS A SUCCESS is why they want it to continue, not because it was a failure.
It's silly to spin this as a failure, it actually is the ONLY success they have had with any of the stimulus ideas put in to place.....and credit should be given where credit is due....the auto industry now needs to analyze this success and see where they can on their own, capitalize from it in the future, from their own mark-down kitty or leeway in their markup.
A success for who? The buying spree maybe good for the car companies, but only for the short term and for certain car models. All the while adding billions more to the deficit. But what's another couple a billion when we're trillions in debt already huh?
They're basically taking off the market, vehicles that (while get lesser gas mileage) are perfectly functioning vehicles. Vehicles that low income buyers would find are well within their price range. The fact that old cars get destroyed (as opposed to having parts recycled) harm automotive recyclers. According to an article from the Associated Press, engines and drive trains account for 60% of a recyclers revenues.
Auto recyclers leery of cash for clunkers
But taking the argument one step further, its actually quite anti-green as destroying those old parts (as opposed to actually recycling) means that new parts have to be produced for replacements and/or the cost of the parts remaining increases for those who least can afford to pay (the program calls for the engines to be destroyed via a solution that must get poured into the old cars engine and therefore, not recycled).
And this article analyzes the number of trade-ins that would have occurred anyway (200,000 every three months) vs. the program (222,000 or 286,000) according to Edmunds.com. The linked article above article specifically examines the cost of the program to the taxpayer in connection with the marginal increase in the number of cars traded in. When examined in this context, the author argues that each car costs the US taxpayer either $45,354 or $11,628, depending on the exact number of rebates at the $4500 amount vs. the $3500 amount.
And you call this a success?
I have no idea where this crapola comes from but for your information, on c-span this morning they had a person going over the program and they specifically said that the auto dealers WILL NOT GET the $4500 unless they show proof that the car was auctioned to a Salvage company who then resells the parts.
I don't know where you get marginal increase in sales...they are reporting on our local news that dealers reported selling more cars this past July than ALL OF LAST YEAR.
I understand the concern for taking these cars off the road...people who did not participate in the program will have to penny up more, that's all....
Your vehicle must be less than 25 years old on the trade-in date
Only purchase or lease of new vehicles qualify
Generally, trade-in vehicles must get 18 or less MPG (some very large pick-up trucks and cargo vans have different requirements)
Trade-in vehicles must be registered and insured continuously for the full year preceding the trade-in
You don't need a voucher, dealers will apply a credit at purchase
Program runs through Nov 1, 2009 or when the funds are exhausted, whichever comes first.
The program requires the scrapping of your eligible trade-in vehicle, and that the dealer disclose to you an estimate of the scrap value of your trade-in. The scrap value, however minimal, will be in addition to the rebate, and not in place of the rebate.
Disposal facilities
Under the CARS Act, the agency is required to provide a list of entities to which dealers may transfer eligible trade-in vehicles for disposal. The list of disposal facilities in all 50 States appears on NHTSAs Disposal Facilities List (see link below). A disposal factility on the list must certify that it will dispose of the trade-in vehicle in compliance with the regulations.
In all States except Maine, NHTSAs list is based on participation in the ELVS program. (Maine has a law that provides a substitute for participation in the ELVS program, and NHTSA has obtained a comprehensive list of disposal facilities from that State.) Consequently, entities that wish to participate in the disposal of CARS trade-in vehicles should join the ELVS program (except in Maine), if they are not currently participating. As entities join the ELVS program, NHTSA will periodically update its list to include these new participants. Dealers are cautioned to use NHTSAs Disposal Facilities List, not the ELVS list, because some ELVS participants may be removed from NHTSAs list if they are found to be in violation of the CARS program requirements. Those considering joining the ELVS program, in the hopes of participating in the disposal of CARS trade-in vehicles, should read carefully the note below.
Disposal facilities in the U. S. Territories need not be ELVS participants, and they do not appear on the NHTSA Disposal Facilities List. However, disposal facilities in the territories must make the same certifications as those made by disposal facilities in the 50 States.
NOTE: While a disposal facility in one of the 50 States must be on NHTSAs list to be eligible, that by itself is not enough. The listed disposal facility must also make specific certifications for each CARS trade-in vehicle it receives (see the link to the Disposal Facility Certifications below). Disposal facilities in the U. S. Territories must also make these certifications. A dealer may not transfer a CARS trade-in vehicle to a disposal facility unless the dealer receives the signed certifications from the disposal facility.
These certifications, which are legally binding on the disposal facility, include a certification that the CARS trade-in vehicle will be crushed or shredded onsite within 180 days of receipt of the vehicle, that all toxic or hazardous components will be removed and properly disposed of prior to crushing or shredding, and that the vehicle will not be transferred to any other disposal facility before it is crushed or shredded. There are other required certifications, and dealers and disposal facilities should read all of them carefully to understand what is required of them. Some disposal facilities on NHTSAs list or in the U. S. Territories may not be willing or able to make the required certifications because they are not equipped to crush or shred the vehicle onsite or for other reason-in that case, they are not eligible to receive a CARS trade-in vehicle.
Salvage Auctions
Instead of transferring a CARS trade-in vehicle directly to a disposal facility, a dealer is allowed to transfer the vehicle to a salvage auction. A salvage auction receiving a CARS trade-in vehicle must certify that it will dispose of the trade-in vehicle in accordance with the regulations.
There is no list of eligible salvage auctions. However, the salvage auction must make specific certifications for each CARS trade-in vehicle it receives. A dealer may not transfer a CARS trade-in vehicle to a salvage auction unless the dealer receives the signed certifications from the salvage auction.
The certifications, which are legally binding on the salvage auction, include a certification that the auction sale will be limited solely to disposal facilities that appear on the NHTSA Disposal Facilities List. There are other required certifications, and dealers and salvage auctions should read all of them carefully to understand what is required of them. The regulations also require the salvage auction to obtain certifications from the disposal facility to which it transfers the CARS trade-in vehicle, just as the dealer would be required to do if it transferred the vehicle directly to a disposal facility.
no, i don't see a pattern at all...the idea of cash for clunkers was to have a great promotion to stimulate car sales for dealers and for the industry and deplete all of the funds.
Because the program WAS A SUCCESS is why they want it to continue, not because it was a failure.
It's silly to spin this as a failure, it actually is the ONLY success they have had with any of the stimulus ideas put in to place.....and credit should be given where credit is due....the auto industry now needs to analyze this success and see where they can on their own, capitalize from it in the future, from their own mark-down kitty or leeway in their markup and repeat this successful promotion in a modified manner.
It was a failure in that they had no idea that was going to take off as it did. This doesn't bode well for our government....what next are they going to under estimate?
Problem is that it's our tax dollars from the stumulus to the auto industry to keep them afloat, and then it's our tax dollars that are stimulating the purchase of these autos. This is an artificial market, and is really just masking the problem.
no, i don't see a pattern at all...the idea of cash for clunkers was to have a great promotion to stimulate car sales for dealers and for the industry and deplete all of the funds.
Because the program WAS A SUCCESS is why they want it to continue, not because it was a failure.
It's silly to spin this as a failure, it actually is the ONLY success they have had with any of the stimulus ideas put in to place.....and credit should be given where credit is due....the auto industry now needs to analyze this success and see where they can on their own, capitalize from it in the future, from their own mark-down kitty or leeway in their markup and repeat this successful promotion in a modified manner.
It was a failure in that they had no idea that was going to take off as it did. This doesn't bode well for our government....what next are they going to under estimate?
Problem is that it's our tax dollars from the stumulus to the auto industry to keep them afloat, and then it's our tax dollars that are stimulating the purchase of these autos. This is an artificial market, and is really just masking the problem.
they are not retailers, i wouldn't have expected them to know, shoot, even the retailers were plesantly surprised, though they did prepare for it....with tons of advertising...
this was not for congress to know...this is a private business's need to know running the promotion....
having something exceeding your expectations is NEVER, EVER A BAD THING! YOU ALWAYS want to BEAT your sales plan....
the incredible success is not a reason to complain...complain if it bombed, then it would have appeared they were just slinging mud but not on a win like this....
i'm telling ya Meister, as a retailer for most my life...
to put it like chris matthews, ''i got a tingle up my leg'', from this promotion's success and am jumping at the bit to figure out their NEXT move to keep this momentum going....!
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors and Chrysler LLC asked the government Tuesday for $21.6 billion in additional loans, but the final cost of a bailout of the auto industry could be significantly higher.
The two struggling auto giants have already received a total of $17.4 billion in loans. If they get the new loans they want, the price tag of the bailout would climb to $39 billion.
What's more, $7.5 billion in loans have already been approved for the financing arms of GM and Chrysler. Congress also approved funding last year for $25 billion in loans to help automakers convert their plants to produce more fuel efficient cars.
But dealers and suppliers are also asking for federal aid. And consumers may eventually get further incentives from the government to buy new cars.
All told, it could take up to $130 billion to save Detroit. Here's a breakdown of the rest of the money that might be needed.
Loan guarantees requested by auto parts suppliers: $18.5 billion. The trade groups for parts suppliers are asking loan guarantees for the amount they're owed by domestic automakers. They are also seeking guarantees on other types of commercial loans and help so General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler pay their suppliers more quickly.
Loan guarantees being requested by auto dealers: $5 billion to $20 billion. This is still in the works. But the National Automobile Dealers Association is working on a request for federal loan guarantees to make sure they can get the cash they need to finance their inventories. NADA vice president and general counsel Andrew Koblenz said the range is likely to be in the $5 billion to $20 billion range.
Line of credit being requested by Ford: $9 billion. Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) continues to insist that it shouldn't need federal help, primarily because it locked up financing years before the credit markets dried up.
Auto bailout tab could top $130 billion - Feb. 18, 2009
I'm sorry Care with all the money given to these companies already, programs like this for addtional billion and now they want 2 billion more don't convince me. Especially since you take into consideration the bank bail-out along with the auto bail-out and all the other problems associated with this. What this program is doing is giving more help to an industry that has already received a LOT of help at the expense of many many others. Here is something to consider, rather than actually destroying these cars because someone worships at the alter of global warming in the Administration, perhaps the Govt. could have taken them and auctioned them off and taken that money and paid down the debt? I'm sorry this type of thing IMO just gives me further proof that all this is nothing but giving a little payback to large groups that support their campaigns.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors and Chrysler LLC asked the government Tuesday for $21.6 billion in additional loans, but the final cost of a bailout of the auto industry could be significantly higher.
The two struggling auto giants have already received a total of $17.4 billion in loans. If they get the new loans they want, the price tag of the bailout would climb to $39 billion.
What's more, $7.5 billion in loans have already been approved for the financing arms of GM and Chrysler. Congress also approved funding last year for $25 billion in loans to help automakers convert their plants to produce more fuel efficient cars.
But dealers and suppliers are also asking for federal aid. And consumers may eventually get further incentives from the government to buy new cars.
All told, it could take up to $130 billion to save Detroit. Here's a breakdown of the rest of the money that might be needed.
Loan guarantees requested by auto parts suppliers: $18.5 billion. The trade groups for parts suppliers are asking loan guarantees for the amount they're owed by domestic automakers. They are also seeking guarantees on other types of commercial loans and help so General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler pay their suppliers more quickly.
Loan guarantees being requested by auto dealers: $5 billion to $20 billion. This is still in the works. But the National Automobile Dealers Association is working on a request for federal loan guarantees to make sure they can get the cash they need to finance their inventories. NADA vice president and general counsel Andrew Koblenz said the range is likely to be in the $5 billion to $20 billion range.
Line of credit being requested by Ford: $9 billion. Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) continues to insist that it shouldn't need federal help, primarily because it locked up financing years before the credit markets dried up.
Auto bailout tab could top $130 billion - Feb. 18, 2009
I'm sorry Care with all the money given to these companies already, programs like this for addtional billion and now they want 2 billion more don't convince me. Especially since you take into consideration the bank bail-out along with the auto bail-out and all the other problems associated with this. What this program is doing is giving more help to an industry that has already received a LOT of help at the expense of many many others. Here is something to consider, rather than actually destroying these cars because someone worships at the alter of global warming in the Administration, perhaps the Govt. could have taken them and auctioned them off and taken that money and paid down the debt? I'm sorry this type of thing IMO just gives me further proof that all this is nothing but giving a little payback to large groups that support their campaigns.
I'm sorry Navy, you are simply wrong on this....this money was WELL SPENT and there is NOTHING to complain about....it HELPED the auto industry, and since we own 70% of it, it helped us....that's the bottom line.
It also helped the credit industry, with all the new car loans, so this too helped us, since we bailed them out for preferred stock...
trying to make this successful promotion out to be a bomb when it clearly WAS NOT, is nothing but needless partisan hackery imo.
I suppose either way, it being successful or it being a bomb, you would have been there saying it was a bomb and a mistake, am I right? If it hadn't of worked this successfully, you still would be on here bitching about it, right?
Not trying to be hard on ya, but i don't think you have the understanding on what a good stimulus promotion is because you can not recognize one when you see one...there is such a thing ya know.... a successful reaction to a stimulus promotion or an ineffective reaction...
Care
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors and Chrysler LLC asked the government Tuesday for $21.6 billion in additional loans, but the final cost of a bailout of the auto industry could be significantly higher.
The two struggling auto giants have already received a total of $17.4 billion in loans. If they get the new loans they want, the price tag of the bailout would climb to $39 billion.
What's more, $7.5 billion in loans have already been approved for the financing arms of GM and Chrysler. Congress also approved funding last year for $25 billion in loans to help automakers convert their plants to produce more fuel efficient cars.
But dealers and suppliers are also asking for federal aid. And consumers may eventually get further incentives from the government to buy new cars.
All told, it could take up to $130 billion to save Detroit. Here's a breakdown of the rest of the money that might be needed.
Loan guarantees requested by auto parts suppliers: $18.5 billion. The trade groups for parts suppliers are asking loan guarantees for the amount they're owed by domestic automakers. They are also seeking guarantees on other types of commercial loans and help so General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler pay their suppliers more quickly.
Loan guarantees being requested by auto dealers: $5 billion to $20 billion. This is still in the works. But the National Automobile Dealers Association is working on a request for federal loan guarantees to make sure they can get the cash they need to finance their inventories. NADA vice president and general counsel Andrew Koblenz said the range is likely to be in the $5 billion to $20 billion range.
Line of credit being requested by Ford: $9 billion. Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) continues to insist that it shouldn't need federal help, primarily because it locked up financing years before the credit markets dried up.
Auto bailout tab could top $130 billion - Feb. 18, 2009
I'm sorry Care with all the money given to these companies already, programs like this for addtional billion and now they want 2 billion more don't convince me. Especially since you take into consideration the bank bail-out along with the auto bail-out and all the other problems associated with this. What this program is doing is giving more help to an industry that has already received a LOT of help at the expense of many many others. Here is something to consider, rather than actually destroying these cars because someone worships at the alter of global warming in the Administration, perhaps the Govt. could have taken them and auctioned them off and taken that money and paid down the debt? I'm sorry this type of thing IMO just gives me further proof that all this is nothing but giving a little payback to large groups that support their campaigns.
I'm sorry Navy, you are simply wrong on this....this money was WELL SPENT and there is NOTHING to complain about....it HELPED the auto industry, and since we own 70% of it, it helped us....that's the bottom line.
It also helped the credit industry, with all the new car loans, so this too helped us, since we bailed them out for preferred stock...
trying to make this successful promotion out to be a bomb when it clearly WAS NOT, is nothing but needless partisan hackery imo.
I suppose either way, it being successful or it being a bomb, you would have been there saying it was a bomb and a mistake, am I right? If it hadn't of worked this successfully, you still would be on here bitching about it, right?
Not trying to be hard on ya, but i don't think you have the understanding on what a good stimulus promotion is because you can not recognize one when you see one...there is such a thing ya know.... a successful reaction to a stimulus promotion or an ineffective reaction...
Care
Hello. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you! Sort of makes you laugh, huh? Just like so many other things here of late, the government has absolutely no business in the car biz... New ones or clunkers.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors and Chrysler LLC asked the government Tuesday for $21.6 billion in additional loans, but the final cost of a bailout of the auto industry could be significantly higher.
The two struggling auto giants have already received a total of $17.4 billion in loans. If they get the new loans they want, the price tag of the bailout would climb to $39 billion.
What's more, $7.5 billion in loans have already been approved for the financing arms of GM and Chrysler. Congress also approved funding last year for $25 billion in loans to help automakers convert their plants to produce more fuel efficient cars.
But dealers and suppliers are also asking for federal aid. And consumers may eventually get further incentives from the government to buy new cars.
All told, it could take up to $130 billion to save Detroit. Here's a breakdown of the rest of the money that might be needed.
Loan guarantees requested by auto parts suppliers: $18.5 billion. The trade groups for parts suppliers are asking loan guarantees for the amount they're owed by domestic automakers. They are also seeking guarantees on other types of commercial loans and help so General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler pay their suppliers more quickly.
Loan guarantees being requested by auto dealers: $5 billion to $20 billion. This is still in the works. But the National Automobile Dealers Association is working on a request for federal loan guarantees to make sure they can get the cash they need to finance their inventories. NADA vice president and general counsel Andrew Koblenz said the range is likely to be in the $5 billion to $20 billion range.
Line of credit being requested by Ford: $9 billion. Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) continues to insist that it shouldn't need federal help, primarily because it locked up financing years before the credit markets dried up.
Auto bailout tab could top $130 billion - Feb. 18, 2009
I'm sorry Care with all the money given to these companies already, programs like this for addtional billion and now they want 2 billion more don't convince me. Especially since you take into consideration the bank bail-out along with the auto bail-out and all the other problems associated with this. What this program is doing is giving more help to an industry that has already received a LOT of help at the expense of many many others. Here is something to consider, rather than actually destroying these cars because someone worships at the alter of global warming in the Administration, perhaps the Govt. could have taken them and auctioned them off and taken that money and paid down the debt? I'm sorry this type of thing IMO just gives me further proof that all this is nothing but giving a little payback to large groups that support their campaigns.
I'm sorry Navy, you are simply wrong on this....this money was WELL SPENT and there is NOTHING to complain about....it HELPED the auto industry, and since we own 70% of it, it helped us....that's the bottom line.
It also helped the credit industry, with all the new car loans, so this too helped us, since we bailed them out for preferred stock...
trying to make this successful promotion out to be a bomb when it clearly WAS NOT, is nothing but needless partisan hackery imo.
I suppose either way, it being successful or it being a bomb, you would have been there saying it was a bomb and a mistake, am I right? If it hadn't of worked this successfully, you still would be on here bitching about it, right?
Not trying to be hard on ya, but i don't think you have the understanding on what a good stimulus promotion is because you can not recognize one when you see one...there is such a thing ya know.... a successful reaction to a stimulus promotion or an ineffective reaction...
Care
O.k. this is irritating me. You keep saying we OWN 70% of the auto industry. Do you have a stock certificate? I know I never got one and let me tell you...unless you have one...YOU DON'T OWN SHIT. If you owned a piece of the company you would have a certificate and be able to collect dividends like a normal stockholder. If you aren't a stockholder in a company you don't own any piece of it...no matter what the gov't mouthpieces spout on the news.
By JOHN D. STOLL, JEFF MCCRACKEN and NEIL KING JR.
General Motors Corp. and the United Auto Workers have agreed to a new restructuring plan that would give the union a significantly smaller stake in the company than previously envisioned, and leave the U.S. government owning as much as 70% of the car maker.
The government's plan also calls for paying off in full GM's secured lenders, banks including Citigroup Inc. and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. that are owed about $6 billion. That would remove one potential obstacle to a speedy bankruptcy reorganization.
After watching the destruction of what looks to be a fairly new Volvo alongside some rather late model SUV's and some other vids. I have seen lately of the cars that are being destroyed this just add's more evidence to the sheer nonsense of this program. Destroying these cars does NOTHING and I mean NOTHING at ALL other than smooth over some environmentalist ego or perhaps some new car companies Union. What's really sad about all this is several environmental groups have already come out and said this will have little or no impact on the environment and even the EPA has said that more than half these cars would have been traded in for new models by years end anyone. So again this is nothing but a scam, and the sad part of all this, is the destruction of these cars that have value and especially in a time when our Govt. has a massive debt on it's hands. It's rather like you and I owing a lot of money on our credit cards and someone giving us money to pay it but because the money is not environemntally friendly we burn it instead of paying our debt.
Followed closely by Toyota. Two or three models. How does that help the American workforce?After watching the destruction of what looks to be a fairly new Volvo alongside some rather late model SUV's and some other vids. I have seen lately of the cars that are being destroyed this just add's more evidence to the sheer nonsense of this program. Destroying these cars does NOTHING and I mean NOTHING at ALL other than smooth over some environmentalist ego or perhaps some new car companies Union. What's really sad about all this is several environmental groups have already come out and said this will have little or no impact on the environment and even the EPA has said that more than half these cars would have been traded in for new models by years end anyone. So again this is nothing but a scam, and the sad part of all this, is the destruction of these cars that have value and especially in a time when our Govt. has a massive debt on it's hands. It's rather like you and I owing a lot of money on our credit cards and someone giving us money to pay it but because the money is not environemntally friendly we burn it instead of paying our debt.
The Senate has agreed to vote for 2 more Billion for cash for clunkers Thursday night, sometime after 7 PM. 775 million of the first billion has already been used. Ford Focus is the #1 car being traded for.
