Can You Be Both An American and A Progressive?

[PoliticalChic]

Can you engage in mud slinging and holier than though bullshitting and still be respected?

I'd hope not.

When the fuck did Wilson (or Hillary) become spokesperson for the progressives? Was there some press conference I missed?

When I open the USMB and find a negative rep, like the one I just found from this dolt, it becomes a curiousity to find why one poster would deem it advisable to use the neg rep, and this is how it appears to me: those who respond in a thread fall into one of several categories,
1. The thoughtful, intelligent poster who provide a cogent, point-for-point refutation of the OP.

2. The in-a-hurry poster, who may pick out one or two items to deal with.

3. The majority who read the posts, and move on without responding

4. The incensed, irate poster who may challenge the very creation of the OP, and be shocked that anyone would write such an OP

5. The foul-mouthed poster, limited in knowledge, but not in four letter words.

6. The A.D.D. poster whose post has nothing to do with the OP

7. And that brings one to Father Toad: the lowest level of poster: the neg rep poster. This cowardly fellow ignores the purpose of a message board, the open and public discourse and exchange of ideas. Following the Toad’s methods, what would be the attraction of a message board?

 

[Vast LWC]

Wow, so all of you right-winger types take heed from "gautama"...

You too might become an insane conspiracy theorist moron like him if you go too far down the path that Glenn Beck starts you on.

But don't think that you're immune my fellow lefties. Extremist conspiracy theories are a bi-partisan phenomenon.

LeftyWhackjobCrunt is an Obamarrhoidal Fool.......waddaya can expect from a Marxist POS ?

Proving my point.

One wonders if this poster is even serious. They're like a cartoon version of a radical right-winger.

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

Wow, so all of you right-winger types take heed from "gautama"...

You too might become an insane conspiracy theorist moron like him if you go too far down the path that Glenn Beck starts you on.

But don't think that you're immune my fellow lefties. Extremist conspiracy theories are a bi-partisan phenomenon.

LeftyWhackjobCrunt is an Obamarrhoidal Fool.......waddaya can expect from a Marxist POS ?

Proving my point.

One wonders if this poster is even serious. They're like a cartoon version of a radical right-winger.

Maybe THAT is the point, to be a caricature, a joke, LOL...

 

[NYcarbineer]

Conservatives trying to label progressives as un-American.

How novel.

 

[XXI Pium]

Dunno but I'm pretty sure the founding fathers aren't progressive nor would they want to be progressive (allowing white male landowners being the only ones eligible to vote is one example of that).

 

[NYcarbineer]

Dunno but I'm pretty sure the founding fathers aren't progressive nor would they want to be progressive (allowing white male landowners being the only ones eligible to vote is one example of that).

Speaking of that, progressives were the ones who got people like Political Chick the vote. I guess she considers that un-American. As I was pointing out, had Progressives lost that battle and women didn't have the vote, would that make our country more 'American'?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Dunno but I'm pretty sure the founding fathers aren't progressive nor would they want to be progressive (allowing white male landowners being the only ones eligible to vote is one example of that).

Speaking of that, progressives were the ones who got people like Political Chick the vote. I guess she considers that un-American. As I was pointing out, had Progressives lost that battle and women didn't have the vote, would that make our country more 'American'?

And imperialists, at home and abroad, and responsible for Prohibition, the Palmer Raids, eugenics, loyalty oaths and a love of Mussolini and all things fascist.

But you are avoiding the point of the OP, which established the following about the Progressive agenda.

They dispute the following:
1. Men are born with inalienable rights, given by their Creator...not by any government or law.


2. That separation of powers is commendable, and so is the system of checks and balances in our Constitution.

3. The rule of law and of property rights are inherent in the American system, and are not malleable to the whims of government.

4. Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution are outdated.


Do you?

 

[PoliticalChic]

An here are attempting a shot at the OP...

Thank you.

There are Progressives in both parties.

To expand on the OP, the term 'American' is here used to define those who believe:
1. are born with inalienable rights, given by their Creator...not by any government or law.
This is at variance to the European view, expressed by Progressives.

2. That separation of powers is commendable, and so is the system of checks and balances in our Constitution. This is not the view of Progressives, early and late, who see same as an impediment to rapid change, and total control of the lives of citizens.

3. The rule of law and of property rights are inherent in the American system, and are not malleable to the whims of government. This is not the view of Progressives.

4. Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution are outdated. This is not the view of Progressives.

5. As you would like to bring liberal- conservative into the discussion, clearlly conservatives fall within the parameters of my definition. Liberals are to a great degree Progressives. John Dewey, another Progressive, co-opted the term Liberal when there was a negative reaction to 'Progressive.'

"Being Progressive does not diminish being an American any more than being a Conservative make one more of an American."
If you accept the above, you are most certainly wrong.


I am certainly willing to agree with you about being a good American if you mean that you wish to call yourself liberal or progressive, but feel as I do about the Declaration and the Constitution.

The word matters less than the view.

What were these document's stance on blacks in America?

A certain concept regarding 3/5ths of a person comes to mind.

This is what you want...right?

Let us not lose our senses to document worship...shall we?

Glad you asked.

Woodrow Wilson, prototypical Progressive, was arguably the most racist President we have had.

He re-established anti-black policies in both Civil Service and the Armed Forces.

 

[traveler52]

I am a Proud Progessive and a Proud American. No one single pollitical party or political philosophy owns the right to be called "American" to the exclusion of others.

Before people start deciding is and/or is not "American" we need to remember that in the 1930's the only way to a "Good German" was to be a member of the Nazi Party.

Being Progressive does not diminish being an American any more than being a Conservative make one more of an American. It does however make us Americans.

An here are attempting a shot at the OP...

Thank you.

There are Progressives in both parties.

To expand on the OP, the term 'American' is here used to define those who believe:
1. are born with inalienable rights, given by their Creator...not by any government or law.
This is at variance to the European view, expressed by Progressives.

2. That separation of powers is commendable, and so is the system of checks and balances in our Constitution. This is not the view of Progressives, early and late, who see same as an impediment to rapid change, and total control of the lives of citizens.

3. The rule of law and of property rights are inherent in the American system, and are not malleable to the whims of government. This is not the view of Progressives.

4. Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution are outdated. This is not the view of Progressives.

5. As you would like to bring liberal- conservative into the discussion, clearlly conservatives fall within the parameters of my definition. Liberals are to a great degree Progressives. John Dewey, another Progressive, co-opted the term Liberal when there was a negative reaction to 'Progressive.'

"Being Progressive does not diminish being an American any more than being a Conservative make one more of an American."
If you accept the above, you are most certainly wrong.


I am certainly willing to agree with you about being a good American if you mean that you wish to call yourself liberal or progressive, but feel as I do about the Declaration and the Constitution.

The word matters less than the view.

I took an oath, when I joined the Army (I served my country for Six [06] Years) to "Protect And Defend The Constitution of the United States." I took that seriously.

I served in Viet Nam, (11B-Infantry Rifleman). I served in Viet Nam for Eighteen Months. I later served at the Pentagon (Changed MOS to Telecommunications, less chance of getting shot at ). I was NOT drafted, I volunterred. I was proud to serve my country and believe in the Constitution of the United States of America and the Declaration of Indpendence.

One does not wear the uniform of their country for Six (06) years without a deep sense of patriotism (love of country). I still put my hand over my heart when the flags passes at a parade, even though I see quite a few Cons who do not.

Just because I do not support the illegal invasion of Iraq (no formal declaration of war was ever made). Just because I do not support the illegal war in Afghanistan (no formal declaration of war was ever made) does not make me less an American. I saw first hand what war does and I cannot and will not be told that the only to show love of country is by killing people in another country.

I was born and raised in the "Cotton" South, where love of country runs very deep. Unlike many Republican Leaders of today, I did not actively seek to avoid military service, I joined of my own free will.

The same men and women who never served a day of their life on active duty, the same men and women who had to load the remains of men killed in combat into body bags were the same people who called me "Bin Laden Lover." "Saddam Supporter." "Troop Hater." I am none of those.

Serving in the Military of the United State of America is an honor, defending the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence means you are defending all Americans, regardless of their philosophical, political, or religious beliefs. You do not get to choose which Americans you get to defend, you are defending all of them.

By trying to say that based soley on a certain set of philosophical, political or relgious beliefs that only certain Americans can be called "Real Americans" starts down the road that ends at the gates of a place like Auchswitz.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Can you engage in mud slinging and holier than though bullshitting and still be respected?

I'd hope not.

When the fuck did Wilson (or Hillary) become spokesperson for the progressives? Was there some press conference I missed?

It would be no surprise, as you have demonstrably missed so much of what is called education.

The backbone of the Progressive Movement was the open attacks on the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution.

"Wilson was the first president to criticize the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence."
Woodrow Wilson: America’s Worst and First Fascist President Conservative Colloquium

This is why Wilson is the " spokesperson for the progressives."

Hillary took on that title by herself.

Wilson, "an American president who demonized ethnic groups as enemies of the state, censored the press, imprisoned dissidents, bullied political opponents, spewed propaganda, often expressed contempt for the Constitution, approved warrantless searches and eavesdropping, and pursued his policies with a blind, religious certainty.

Wilson’s two terms in office provide the clearest historical window into the soul of progressivism. Wilson’s racism, his ideological rigidity, and his antipathy toward the Constitution were all products of the progressive worldview. And since “progressivism” is suddenly in vogue – today’s leading Democrats proudly wear the label – it’s worth actually reviewing what progressivism was and what actually happened under the last full-throated progressive president."
The First “Progressive” President - Transterrestrial Musings


"Yet the Progressive Era was also a time of vicious, state-sponsored racism. In fact, from the standpoint of African-American history, the Progressive Era qualifies as arguably the single worst period since Emancipation. The wholesale disfranchisement of Southern black voters occurred during these years, as did the rise and triumph of Jim Crow. Furthermore, as the Westminster College historian David W. Southern notes in his recent book, The Progressive Era and Race: Reform and Reaction, 1900–1917, the very worst of it—disfranchisement, segregation, race baiting, lynching—“went hand-in-hand with the most advanced forms of southern progressivism.” Racism was the norm, not the exception, among the very crusaders romanticized by today’s activist left."
When Bigots Become Reformers - Reason Magazine

 

[PoliticalChic]

I am a Proud Progessive and a Proud American. No one single pollitical party or political philosophy owns the right to be called "American" to the exclusion of others.

Before people start deciding is and/or is not "American" we need to remember that in the 1930's the only way to a "Good German" was to be a member of the Nazi Party.

Being Progressive does not diminish being an American any more than being a Conservative make one more of an American. It does however make us Americans.

An here are attempting a shot at the OP...

Thank you.

There are Progressives in both parties.

To expand on the OP, the term 'American' is here used to define those who believe:
1. are born with inalienable rights, given by their Creator...not by any government or law.
This is at variance to the European view, expressed by Progressives.

2. That separation of powers is commendable, and so is the system of checks and balances in our Constitution. This is not the view of Progressives, early and late, who see same as an impediment to rapid change, and total control of the lives of citizens.

3. The rule of law and of property rights are inherent in the American system, and are not malleable to the whims of government. This is not the view of Progressives.

4. Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution are outdated. This is not the view of Progressives.

5. As you would like to bring liberal- conservative into the discussion, clearlly conservatives fall within the parameters of my definition. Liberals are to a great degree Progressives. John Dewey, another Progressive, co-opted the term Liberal when there was a negative reaction to 'Progressive.'

"Being Progressive does not diminish being an American any more than being a Conservative make one more of an American."
If you accept the above, you are most certainly wrong.


I am certainly willing to agree with you about being a good American if you mean that you wish to call yourself liberal or progressive, but feel as I do about the Declaration and the Constitution.

The word matters less than the view.

I took an oath, when I joined the Army (I served my country for Six [06] Years) to "Protect And Defend The Constitution of the United States." I took that seriously.

I served in Viet Nam, (11B-Infantry Rifleman). I served in Viet Nam for Eighteen Months. I later served at the Pentagon (Changed MOS to Telecommunications, less chance of getting shot at ). I was NOT drafted, I volunterred. I was proud to serve my country and believe in the Constitution of the United States of America and the Declaration of Indpendence.

One does not wear the uniform of their country for Six (06) years without a deep sense of patriotism (love of country). I still put my hand over my heart when the flags passes at a parade, even though I see quite a few Cons who do not.

Just because I do not support the illegal invasion of Iraq (no formal declaration of war was ever made). Just because I do not support the illegal war in Afghanistan (no formal declaration of war was ever made) does not make me less an American. I saw first hand what war does and I cannot and will not be told that the only to show love of country is by killing people in another country.

I was born and raised in the "Cotton" South, where love of country runs very deep. Unlike many Republican Leaders of today, I did not actively seek to avoid military service, I joined of my own free will.

The same men and women who never served a day of their life on active duty, the same men and women who had to load the remains of men killed in combat into body bags were the same people who called me "Bin Laden Lover." "Saddam Supporter." "Troop Hater." I am none of those.

Serving in the Military of the United State of America is an honor, defending the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence means you are defending all Americans, regardless of their philosophical, political, or religious beliefs. You do not get to choose which Americans you get to defend, you are defending all of them.

By trying to say that based soley on a certain set of philosophical, political or relgious beliefs that only certain Americans can be called "Real Americans" starts down the road that ends at the gates of a place like Auchswitz.

Thank you for your service to our country.

The definition that you are looking for is in post #28, not the one you are interposing.

If the shoe doesn't fit, stop trying to put it on.

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

Dunno but I'm pretty sure the founding fathers aren't progressive nor would they want to be progressive (allowing white male landowners being the only ones eligible to vote is one example of that).

Actually, originally ALL landowners could vote, it was taken from women later on:

Timeline of Women's Suffrage in the United States

Site Map for Women's Resources
1776Abigail Adams writes to her husband, John Adams, asking him to "remember the ladies" in the new code of laws. Adams replies the men will fight the "despotism of the petticoat."
1777Women lose the right to vote in New York.
1780Women lose the right to vote in Massachusetts.
1784Women lose the right to vote in New Hampshire.
1787US Constitutional Convention places voting qualifications in the hands of the states. Women in all states except New Jersey lose the right to vote.
1792Mary Wollstonecraft publishes Vindication of the Rights of Women in England.
1807Women lose the right to vote in New Jersey, the last state to revoke the right. http://dpsinfo.com/women/history/timeline.html

​

 

[whaleboat]

Some of the people posting on this topic seem to have a real problem with anybody trying to define American culture and what is a distinctly American train of thought and what , like Progressivism , runs counter to our culture as Americans . They seem to feel as if freedom means anything goes and they shouldn't be ostricized for adopting a philosophy that is unAmerican . It is a free country , you can think anything you want and do anything you want , but don't be surprised if your counter-culture philosopy puts you outside of the circle . Every society on the planet defines their culture and what is healthy or unhealthy relative to their culture , so why shouldn't we? What if way back when members of some Great Plains Indian tribe had decided that killing buffalo was wrong and tried to convince everybody else that it was ? That would have gone counter to that tribe's culture and the people that held the view point killing buffalo was wrong would have found themselves outside the circle . There are many things that run counter to American culture . Progressivism is one of them . And another thing that comes to mind are practitioners of Sharia law . Our philosophy is that church and state should be seperate . Would we be wrong to say that Sharia law is unAmerican . Are we as Americans not allowed to define our own cultural values ? Does freedom mean we must roll out the welcome mat for every train of thought on the planet ?

 

[MarcATL]

Glad you asked.

Woodrow Wilson, prototypical Progressive, was arguably the most racist President we have had.

He re-established anti-black policies in both Civil Service and the Armed Forces.

That's nice, but I didn't ask, nor do I care about who Woodrow Wilson was or what you believe he stood for. The question was about what those documents you seem to so gleefully worship stood for.

I'm glad you WILLFULY REFUSED to answer the direct question.

Speaks volumes.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

7. And that brings one to Father Toad: the lowest level of poster: the neg rep poster. This cowardly fellow ignores the purpose of a message board, the open and public discourse and exchange of ideas. Following the Toad’s methods, what would be the attraction of a message board?

What is the purpose of having a neg rep function, if not to discourage such outlandish hackery?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Dunno but I'm pretty sure the founding fathers aren't progressive nor would they want to be progressive (allowing white male landowners being the only ones eligible to vote is one example of that).

Speaking of that, progressives were the ones who got people like Political Chick the vote. I guess she considers that un-American. As I was pointing out, had Progressives lost that battle and women didn't have the vote, would that make our country more 'American'?

And imperialists

American imperialism was based upon big business.

responsible for Prohibition,

That was the Right. Specifically, it was the whole 'ALCOHOL IS SIN!!!!!' crowd.

the Palmer Raids,

\

So Progressives are Leftists who led raids to rid America of Leftists?

Palmer Raids occurred in the larger context of the Red Scare, the term given to American fear of and reaction against political radicals in the years immediately following World War I.

Palmer Raids - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Red Scare was a tactic of people like you and McCarthy, remember? It was the Right wing again.

eugenics

Negative Eugenics have always been led by the hard Right. In America, it was mostly tied to the WASP movement.

, loyalty oaths and a love of Mussolini and all things fascist.

Are you trying to get your own show on Fox News? Will you be on after Beck and before Palin?

But you are avoiding the point of the OP, which established the following about the Progressive agenda.

They dispute the following:
1. Men are born with inalienable rights, given by their Creator...not by any government or law.

Yes, they do. The believe that women also have rights and they fought so you could vote.

2. That separation of powers is commendable, and so is the system of checks and balances in our Constitution.

You've shown no such thing

3. The rule of law and of property rights are inherent in the American system, and are not malleable to the whims of government.

Remind us who led the campaign to conquer Hawaii and ten tell me who fails to recognize sovereign territory.

4. Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution are outdated.

Yes, they are. That's why they had to be amended so many times. You know, like when we decided to let you vote.

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

It is a free country , you can think anything you want and do anything you want , but don't be surprised if your counter-culture philosopy puts you outside of the circle .

WHICH "counter-culture philosophy" are YOU referring to?

 

[whaleboat]

It is a free country , you can think anything you want and do anything you want , but don't be surprised if your counter-culture philosopy puts you outside of the circle .

WHICH "counter-culture philosophy" are YOU referring to?

I was speaking in broad terms . Every society decides what it will accept , tolerate , or not accept .

 

[NYcarbineer]

Dunno but I'm pretty sure the founding fathers aren't progressive nor would they want to be progressive (allowing white male landowners being the only ones eligible to vote is one example of that).

Speaking of that, progressives were the ones who got people like Political Chick the vote. I guess she considers that un-American. As I was pointing out, had Progressives lost that battle and women didn't have the vote, would that make our country more 'American'?

And imperialists, at home and abroad, and responsible for Prohibition, the Palmer Raids, eugenics, loyalty oaths and a love of Mussolini and all things fascist.

But you are avoiding the point of the OP, which established the following about the Progressive agenda.

They dispute the following:
1. Men are born with inalienable rights, given by their Creator...not by any government or law.


2. That separation of powers is commendable, and so is the system of checks and balances in our Constitution.

3. The rule of law and of property rights are inherent in the American system, and are not malleable to the whims of government.

4. Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution are outdated.


Do you?

For starters, you're wrongly assuming that what were called progressives a hundred years ago, and what you select out as a certain subset of progressives from a hundred years ago, define what progressives of today are.

You are making what appears to the untrained eye to be a clever argument. Unfortunately for you, not all of us are burdened with untrained eyes.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Speaking of that, progressives were the ones who got people like Political Chick the vote. I guess she considers that un-American. As I was pointing out, had Progressives lost that battle and women didn't have the vote, would that make our country more 'American'?

And imperialists, at home and abroad, and responsible for Prohibition, the Palmer Raids, eugenics, loyalty oaths and a love of Mussolini and all things fascist.

But you are avoiding the point of the OP, which established the following about the Progressive agenda.

They dispute the following:
1. Men are born with inalienable rights, given by their Creator...not by any government or law.


2. That separation of powers is commendable, and so is the system of checks and balances in our Constitution.

3. The rule of law and of property rights are inherent in the American system, and are not malleable to the whims of government.

4. Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution are outdated.


Do you?

For starters, you're wrongly assuming that what were called progressives a hundred years ago, and what you select out as a certain subset of progressives from a hundred years ago, define what progressives of today are.

You are making what appears to the untrained eye to be a clever argument. Unfortunately for you, not all of us are burdened with untrained eyes.

The connection is clear not only in that the same big government totalist initiatives are apparent, but a leading politician, Ms. Clinton, proudly bids homage to the 'earlly 20th century Progressives.' Her own words.

As does the President.

Once you realized the direction of those, and these, you will be forced to formulate your own views and shun the term Progressive.

I doubt that you are aware that the term Progressive was submerged by John Dewey because to the rejection of same by Americans.

Wilson and the Progressives tried to make war socialism permanent, but the voters didn’t agree. So the Progressives began to agree more and more with Bismarckian top-down socialism, and looked to Russia and Italy were ‘men of action’ were creating utopias. And, John Dewey renamed Progressivism as ‘liberalism,’ which had referred to political and economic liberty, along the lines of John Locke and Adam Smith: maximum individual freedom under a minimalist state. Dewey changed the meaning to the Prussian meaning: alleviation of material and educational poverty, and the removal of old ideas and faiths. Classical liberals were not called Conservatives.

“Finally, Dewey arguably did more than any other reformer to repackage progressive social theory in a way that obscured just how radically its principles departed from those of the American founding. Like Ely and many of his fellow progressive academics, Dewey initially embraced the term "socialism" to describe his social theory. Only after realizing how damaging the name was to the socialist cause did he, like other progressives, begin to avoid it. In the early 1930s, accordingly, Dewey begged the Socialist party, of which he was a longtime member, to change its name. "The greatest handicap from which special measures favored by the Socialists suffer," Dewey declared, "is that they are advanced by the Socialist party as Socialism.” John Dewey and the philosophical refounding of America | National Review | Find Articles at BNET