CDZ Can America function like this?

[usmbguest5318]

Can the government function properly, can it move the country forward, when so little attention is paid to issues?

As your question that follows the one above implies, the issue isn't that "little attention" is paid to issues, but rather that the attention paid is inapt to the issues at hand. All the attention in the world amounts to naught if folks focus on immaterial aspects of the topic/issue. To wit, perusing some of the most heavily posted-in threads on USMB, one sees that overwhelming majority of comments don't actually offer substantive and soundly germane on the topic but rather offer a cacophony of tu quoque, red herring, straw man and other insipid thoughts. Discourse too often is suffused with rhetoric not reason.

Do we not think that many of our Best & Brightest are going to stay away from politics because of this trend?

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
-- Isaac Asimov​

Plenty of the best and brightest eschew high government service. I mean really...How many U.S. Nobel laureates have held top level positions as the heads of key government organizations or as members of Congress? Are any U.S. science or economics laureates heading any government agencies? What Rhodes or Fulbright scholars have held high elected or appointed office? [1]



Note:

1. The Rhodes Scholars whom I'm aware of and who have held high government service roles are: Bill Bradley, Bill Clinton, George Stephanopoulos, Dean Rusk, Bill Fulbright, Strobe Talbot, Cory Booker, Gen. Wes Clark, and Bobby Jindal.
   
   There may be a Nobel laureate or two holding or who held high elected/appointed office, but none come to mind.

 

[gipper]

Can the government function properly, can it move the country forward, when so little attention is paid to issues?

As your question that follows the one above implies, the issue isn't that "little attention" is paid to issues, but rather that the attention paid is inapt to the issues at hand. All the attention in the world amounts to naught if folks focus on immaterial aspects of the topic/issue. To wit, perusing some of the most heavily posted-in threads on USMB, one sees that overwhelming majority of comments don't actually offer substantive and soundly germane on the topic but rather offer a cacophony of tu quoque, red herring, straw man and other insipid thoughts. Discourse too often is suffused with rhetoric not reason.

Do we not think that many of our Best & Brightest are going to stay away from politics because of this trend?

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
-- Isaac Asimov​

Plenty of the best and brightest eschew high government service. I mean really...How many U.S. Nobel laureates have held top level positions as the heads of key government organizations or as members of Congress? Are any U.S. science or economics laureates heading any government agencies? What Rhodes or Fulbright scholars have held high elected or appointed office? [1]



Note:

1. The Rhodes Scholars whom I'm aware of and who have held high government service roles are: Bill Bradley, Bill Clinton, George Stephanopoulos, Dean Rusk, Bill Fulbright, Strobe Talbot, Cory Booker, Gen. Wes Clark, and Bobby Jindal.
   
   There may be a Nobel laureate or two holding or who held high elected/appointed office, but none come to mind.

According to Doug Casey we are headed for a disaster...a very bloody disaster. He makes a very good case for it. Divisiveness and hatred for one's political opponents seems to be on the rise in the people, MSM, academy, and central government. We Americans have little in common anymore.


Doug Casey on Why Race Will Break the U.S. Apart, Part I
When the U.S. democracy was started, it was much like that. It was very much like a Greek city-state, an extended one. Everybody shared culture, ethnicity, language, habits, and so forth, with just minor regional differences. People saw themselves first as New Yorkers, Virginians, or whatever, just as the Greeks saw themselves first as Athenians, Thebans, Corinthians, or many scores of other polities.

As you know I don’t believe in democracy, I believe in personal freedom. Democracy is workable enough in something like a cohesive city-state. But absolutely not once voters get involved in economic issues—the poor will always vote themselves a free lunch, and the rich will buy votes to give themselves more. Democracy always devolves into class warfare.

In ancient Greece, if you weren’t a landowner you weren’t respected. In the U.S., voting rules were determined by the States, and originally, everywhere, you had to be a landowner. That meant you had something to lose. But that’s not the case anymore.
Race Will Break the US Apart - LewRockwell LewRockwell.com
Doug Casey on Why Race Will Break the U.S. Apart, Part II
In the late ‘60s and the early ‘70s, hundreds of bombings took place at universities, banks, and all kinds of places. The National Guard was in cities like Detroit during the riots, and they were raking buildings with .50 caliber machine guns. It was wild.

I don’t think most remember this. At least, I don’t see it being brought up anywhere.

I lived in Washington DC then. It seemed like there was tear gas in the air half the time I went out on a date on a Friday or Saturday night

But as wild and wooly as things were back then, what we have now is much more serious.

The racial element is still there, but the ideological element is even more pronounced.

In those days, people at least talked to each other. You could have a disagreement, and it was a simple difference of opinion.

It’s much worse now. Today, there’s a visceral hatred between the left and the right, between the people that live in the so-called red counties and blue counties.

You add that to the racial situation. Then throw in the fact that the rich are getting richer at an exponential rate while the middle class is disappearing.

And let’s not forget the large-scale subsidized migration of people from totally alien Third World hellholes. This is not what the U.S. was founded on. Before changes in the immigration law that were made in the ‘60s, immigrants were culturally compatible opportunity seekers that were coming to America to improve themselves.

Now, people from all kinds of alien places are being imported by the hundreds of thousands by NGOs; they then go on welfare in enclaves in different places around the country. This is unlikely to end well. The U.S. is no longer a country.

That said, I’m actually for open borders. But it’s only possible if, A, there is zero welfare to attract the wrong types. And, B, all property was privately owned, to help ensure everyone is self-supporting.

Race vs. America - LewRockwell LewRockwell.com

 

[Mac1958]

According to Doug Casey we are headed for a disaster...a very bloody disaster. He makes a very good case for it. Divisiveness and hatred for one's political opponents seems to be on the rise...

If something like this were to happen, though, it would be the result of choice, not necessity.

Intelligent, reasonable adults can find ways to live and prosper together, because they know it requires give and take and they are willing to do that. And sometimes, someone has to be first.

 

[Tehon]

And sometimes, someone has to be first

It's always me first in the land of opportunity. That's the main cause of our problems of course.

 

[gipper]

And sometimes, someone has to be first

It's always me first in the land of opportunity. That's the main cause of our problems of course.

That only pertains to the Oligarchy. They THINK they are the chosen ones...they think they must rule and must attain enormous wealth.

 

[gipper]

According to Doug Casey we are headed for a disaster...a very bloody disaster. He makes a very good case for it. Divisiveness and hatred for one's political opponents seems to be on the rise...

If something like this were to happen, though, it would be the result of choice, not necessity.

Intelligent, reasonable adults can find ways to live and prosper together, because they know it requires give and take and they are willing to do that. And sometimes, someone has to be first.

Agreed, but where are these people who are intelligent and reasonable? Do they have any power? If cooler heads are to prevail, they must come forward. I don't see them.

 

[BlackSand]

Agreed, but where are these people who are intelligent and reasonable? Do they have any power? If cooler heads are to prevail, they must come forward. I don't see them.

Intelligent and reasonable people understand there is nothing the government has to offer them that they cannot do better and more efficiently themselves.

You don't need government supported power/approval to move forward with your efforts to improve the world around you.
Why try to get 300 million people to agree with you in order to do what you can accomplish without them?

.

 

[gipper]

Agreed, but where are these people who are intelligent and reasonable? Do they have any power? If cooler heads are to prevail, they must come forward. I don't see them.

Intelligent and reasonable people understand there is nothing the government has to offer them that they cannot do better and more efficiently themselves.

You don't need government supported power/approval to move forward with your efforts to improve the world around you.
Why try to get 300 million people to agree with you in order to do what you can accomplish without them?

.

I do not expect or believe we will find leaders in the central government who are intelligent or reasonable. What we need are leaders outside of government, to come forward to stop the madness. But...I do not believe this will happen. Anyone who comes forward and outspokenly demands peace while criticizing the divisiveness and political correctness, will be marginalized and destroyed by the establishment.

 

[Mac1958]

According to Doug Casey we are headed for a disaster...a very bloody disaster. He makes a very good case for it. Divisiveness and hatred for one's political opponents seems to be on the rise...

If something like this were to happen, though, it would be the result of choice, not necessity.

Intelligent, reasonable adults can find ways to live and prosper together, because they know it requires give and take and they are willing to do that. And sometimes, someone has to be first.

Agreed, but where are these people who are intelligent and reasonable? Do they have any power? If cooler heads are to prevail, they must come forward. I don't see them.

I don't either, and that's what concerns me.
.

 

[BlackSand]

I do not expect or believe we will find leaders in the central government who are intelligent or reasonable. What we need are leaders outside of government, to come forward to stop the madness. But...I do not believe this will happen. Anyone who comes forward and outspokenly demands peace while criticizing the divisiveness and political correctness, will be marginalized and destroyed by the establishment.

Yeah ... I would agree with that ... But it was kind of my point.

Leaders prefer to lead ... And the government/people don't want to be led in mass.
They want to fight and pursue less than productive measures dripping in bureaucracy and political corruption.

Why would an intelligent reasonable leader waste one moment's effort pursuing that garbage?
It may be more self-serving for them to go on about their lives influencing the community around them in a more beneficial manner ... So what?
They can get more done to accomplish their goals with their daily activities than trying to fix a system the People insist on keeping screwed up.

The adage goes ... Lead, follow or get the **** out of the way.
The leaders and followers are in short supply ... And what is left has no intent on getting the **** out of the way.

.

 

[Tehon]

And sometimes, someone has to be first

It's always me first in the land of opportunity. That's the main cause of our problems of course.

That only pertains to the Oligarchy. They THINK they are the chosen ones...they think they must rule and must attain enormous wealth.

No it doesn't, it's everyone. Our economic system is driven by self interest.

 

[gipper]

I do not expect or believe we will find leaders in the central government who are intelligent or reasonable. What we need are leaders outside of government, to come forward to stop the madness. But...I do not believe this will happen. Anyone who comes forward and outspokenly demands peace while criticizing the divisiveness and political correctness, will be marginalized and destroyed by the establishment.

Yeah ... I would agree with that ... But it was kind of my point.

Leaders prefer to lead ... And the government/people don't want to be led in mass.
They want to fight and pursue less than productive measures dripping in bureaucracy and political corruption.

Why would an intelligent reasonable leader waste one moment's effort pursuing that garbage?
It may be more self-serving for them to go on about their lives influencing the community around them in a more beneficial manner ... So what?
They can get more done to accomplish their goals with their daily activities than trying to fix a system the People insist on keeping screwed up.

The adage goes ... Lead, follow or get the **** out of the way.
The leaders and followers are in short supply ... And what is left has no intent on getting the **** out of the way.

.

Many believe we as a nation, are spinning out of control and are headed for disaster. I tend to think this is possible. How much divisiveness can one nation take before violence explodes? So...if there are leaders out there that believe this, they will come forward to stop it. You say why waste their time. Well it seems to me they like all of us, have much to lose if the nation explodes.

 

[gipper]

And sometimes, someone has to be first

It's always me first in the land of opportunity. That's the main cause of our problems of course.

That only pertains to the Oligarchy. They THINK they are the chosen ones...they think they must rule and must attain enormous wealth.

No it doesn't, it's everyone. Our economic system is driven by self interest.

Therein lies the problem. I see nothing wrong with self interest and it is human nature to be self interested. This is what is fundamentally wrong with your ideology. It goes against human nature and as such, is unworkable.

That said, the Oligarchy are the ones taking self interest to a level that is damaging for the country and most of the people. The poor, working, and middle classes can't damage the nation with extreme self interest. The Oligarchy can due to it's ability to control the central government.

 

[Tehon]

And sometimes, someone has to be first

It's always me first in the land of opportunity. That's the main cause of our problems of course.

That only pertains to the Oligarchy. They THINK they are the chosen ones...they think they must rule and must attain enormous wealth.

No it doesn't, it's everyone. Our economic system is driven by self interest.

Therein lies the problem. I see nothing wrong with self interest and it is human nature to be self interested. This is what is fundamentally wrong with your ideology. It goes against human nature and as such, is unworkable.

That said, the Oligarchy are the ones taking self interest to a level that is damaging for the country and most of the people. The poor, working, and middle classes can't damage the nation with extreme self interest. The Oligarchy can due to it's ability to control the central government.

It's not just political power we are discussing, it's also social power. In the age of technology there are a plethora of outlets available to promote our differing self interests.

It seems to me that your ideology is the one not working. At least if this thread is any indication.

There are no boogeymen. Just people acting in there own interest.

 

[Mac1958]

And sometimes, someone has to be first

It's always me first in the land of opportunity. That's the main cause of our problems of course.

That only pertains to the Oligarchy. They THINK they are the chosen ones...they think they must rule and must attain enormous wealth.

No it doesn't, it's everyone. Our economic system is driven by self interest.

Therein lies the problem. I see nothing wrong with self interest and it is human nature to be self interested. This is what is fundamentally wrong with your ideology. It goes against human nature and as such, is unworkable.

That said, the Oligarchy are the ones taking self interest to a level that is damaging for the country and most of the people. The poor, working, and middle classes can't damage the nation with extreme self interest. The Oligarchy can due to it's ability to control the central government.

As with most things, finding proper balance and equilibrium is the key.

Yes, an economy based purely on self interest is not going to sustain because the inevitable imbalances will lead to destructive reaction. And yes, too much control by a central government will suffocate a free economy and give its people far, far less than it could.

Seems pretty clear to me that we need to keep our eyes and minds open, and find an efficient level of regulation and safety controls that does not retard the dynamics of a capitalist economy too much ("too much", being the key point that must be identified by cooperation).

As usual, binary thinking simply isn't good enough for something this complicated. An open, curious and humble mindset and honest communication are required.
.

 

[BlackSand]

Many believe we as a nation, are spinning out of control and are headed for disaster. I tend to think this is possible. How much divisiveness can one nation take before violence explodes? So...if there are leaders out there that believe this, they will come forward to stop it. You say why waste their time. Well it seems to me they like all of us, have much to lose if the nation explodes.

Most leaders are prepared for that to happen ... That is when their leadership will be more beneficial ...
They don't have to break a system that is destroying itself ... Just pick up the pieces afterwards.

Their leadership will be stronger when the **** hits the fan.
Once the macro is destroyed the micro becomes a lot more influential.

.

 

[gipper]

And sometimes, someone has to be first

It's always me first in the land of opportunity. That's the main cause of our problems of course.

That only pertains to the Oligarchy. They THINK they are the chosen ones...they think they must rule and must attain enormous wealth.

No it doesn't, it's everyone. Our economic system is driven by self interest.

Therein lies the problem. I see nothing wrong with self interest and it is human nature to be self interested. This is what is fundamentally wrong with your ideology. It goes against human nature and as such, is unworkable.

That said, the Oligarchy are the ones taking self interest to a level that is damaging for the country and most of the people. The poor, working, and middle classes can't damage the nation with extreme self interest. The Oligarchy can due to it's ability to control the central government.

It's not just political power we are discussing, it's also social power. In the age of technology there are a plethora of outlets available to promote our differing self interests.

It seems to me that your ideology is the one not working. At least if this thread is any indication.

There are no boogeymen. Just people acting in there own interest.

When a central government is owned and controlled by wealthy elites, that government will not do what is right for the majority of the people. You know? Like the USSR and now the USA.

 

[gipper]

And sometimes, someone has to be first

It's always me first in the land of opportunity. That's the main cause of our problems of course.

That only pertains to the Oligarchy. They THINK they are the chosen ones...they think they must rule and must attain enormous wealth.

No it doesn't, it's everyone. Our economic system is driven by self interest.

Therein lies the problem. I see nothing wrong with self interest and it is human nature to be self interested. This is what is fundamentally wrong with your ideology. It goes against human nature and as such, is unworkable.

That said, the Oligarchy are the ones taking self interest to a level that is damaging for the country and most of the people. The poor, working, and middle classes can't damage the nation with extreme self interest. The Oligarchy can due to it's ability to control the central government.

As with most things, finding proper balance and equilibrium is the key.

Yes, an economy based purely on self interest is not going to sustain because the inevitable imbalances will lead to destructive reaction. And yes, too much control by a central government will suffocate a free economy and give its people far, far less than it could.

Seems pretty clear to me that we need to keep our eyes and minds open, and find an efficient level of regulation and safety controls that does not retard the dynamics of a capitalist economy too much ("too much", being the key point that must be identified by cooperation).

As usual, binary thinking simply isn't good enough for something this complicated. An open, curious and humble mindset and honest communication are required.
.

Agreed. What we have now is an economy that is increasingly run for the benefit of the wealthy elite. They have garnered enormous advantages from the central government. It is a protection racket...where the political class receives payments from the wealthy elite and in turn provides protection (benefits) from taxation and regulation, to the wealthy elite. This is not a sustainable economic system. This all results in terrible imbalances in the system. Rising income inequality will lead to problems and likely to violence.

 

[Tehon]

It's always me first in the land of opportunity. That's the main cause of our problems of course.

That only pertains to the Oligarchy. They THINK they are the chosen ones...they think they must rule and must attain enormous wealth.

No it doesn't, it's everyone. Our economic system is driven by self interest.

Therein lies the problem. I see nothing wrong with self interest and it is human nature to be self interested. This is what is fundamentally wrong with your ideology. It goes against human nature and as such, is unworkable.

That said, the Oligarchy are the ones taking self interest to a level that is damaging for the country and most of the people. The poor, working, and middle classes can't damage the nation with extreme self interest. The Oligarchy can due to it's ability to control the central government.

It's not just political power we are discussing, it's also social power. In the age of technology there are a plethora of outlets available to promote our differing self interests.

It seems to me that your ideology is the one not working. At least if this thread is any indication.

There are no boogeymen. Just people acting in there own interest.

When a central government is owned and controlled by wealthy elites, that government will not do what is right for the majority of the people. You know? Like the USSR and now the USA.

Then why do you support an economic system that provides the means for wealthy people to dominate the people's government?

 

[Darkwind]

If you disagree with the premise, please pipe up, I'd like to hear that too.

It seems to me that national politics have essentially decayed into an ongoing contest of smears, innuendo, accusation, condemnation and conspiracy theories. Not to mention, outright lies. And obviously, if the Democrats gain back control, that certainly is not going to change.

Yes, it has "always been like this". But in the age of the internet, instant news, and fake news, the noise is like nothing ever seen.

So I guess I have two questions:

1. Can the government function properly, can it move the country forward, when so little attention is paid to issues? And when debate of the issues amounts to little more than simplistic bumper sticker sloganeering, wedged in between smears and attacks?

2. Do we not think that many of our Best & Brightest are going to stay away from politics because of this trend?
.

What do you propose, Mac, to get us on a better track? Continually harping on how bad our system is doesn't actually fix it, does it?
I'd love to see Super PACS outlawed. I'd love to see all campaigners allotted a specific amount of money and they can't spend more than that. It will never happen, though, because the exact same people who depend on all that money are the ones who would have to vote in those rules, aren't they?

There is only one way in which D. C. can be changed.

Increase the quality of the citizenry. An immoral citizenry leads to immoral leadership.